Re: Liam..

As I said before, I like Liam for his attitude to life.. just wish he could be customised abit more.  True of the entire team, first run through I only used Draak and Vetra the entire game after Eos.   Now I'll sometimes get Cora or Peebee to join in, Jaal on Voeld and Havarl, but for the most part, never Liam.    I have been using him abit on Eldaaren but not much, his skills.. aren't really useful.

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@lagruej wrote:

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@rugster wrote:

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

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Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

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Honestly, taking personal shots at someone is over the line.

Anyway, I actually liked Cassandra, despite the fact that the first time I meet her she tries to kill me. She has a nice combination of tough and sweet.

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@lagruej wrote:

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@rugster wrote:

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

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Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

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The chocies of avatars on here aren't exactly extensive. 2 female chars for DAI. Sara or Cassandra. I wasn't about to pick Sara. Would take Josie if she was an option. Judging people based on games is pretty lame. Judging them based on a very limited avatar pool, even lamer.

I wouldn't expect anything less though from someone who can't seem to wrap their heads around a character like Liam.

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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I wouldn't expect anything less though from someone who can't seem to wrap their heads around a character like Liam.

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Now, now, you are being very gross to people who are not in agreement with your point of view. I haven't even posted in this thread because it was clear that it seemed you just wanted to read what you wanted to read, but you cannot avoid others to state otherwise and shouldn't condescend others like that.

In my county, Liam would have been arrested, for example, and I would concur with it. My views on him is that he places loyalty above all else, and that really doesn't work, neither in a civilian nor military community. What I think Liam was written around is that he considers the protagonist as being Alec still, someone that will put whatever fire anyone starts and, perhaps, overwrite chain of commands, if necessary. What's left to ponder for me is if Liam acts like that because he places too much store on our character, or if he does things like that because, in spite of his good intentions and loyalty, he knows he'll get away with it knowing Ryder is 'soft': I'm simply very sure that Alec wouldn't have this mess happening around him, no matter what.

@PandaTar @Nykara360 @lagruej

Keep it civil guys, Liam is a interesting subject to discus, I would hate it to close this thread because the discussion goes below the belt. 

@lagruej

"lol" is not exactly a grown up form of response. You have every right to have an different opinion about Liam as @Nykara360 has, (As I have too.) but do not attack him personally just because of that.

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@holger1405 wrote:

@PandaTar @Nykara360 @lagruej

Keep it civil guys, Liam is a interesting subject to discuses, I would hate it to close this thread because the discussion goes below the belt. 

@lagruej

"lol" is not exactly a grown up form of response. You have every right to have an different opinion about Liam as @Nykara360 has, (As I have too.) but do not attack him personally just because of that.

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@holger1405

Slightly off topic, but I like your Tennyson quote. Is there a way for me to add something like that to my posts?🙂

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@rugster wrote:

As I said before, I like Liam for his attitude to life.. just wish he could be customised abit more.  True of the entire team, first run through I only used Draak and Vetra the entire game after Eos.   Now I'll sometimes get Cora or Peebee to join in, Jaal on Voeld and Havarl, but for the most part, never Liam.    I have been using him abit on Eldaaren but not much, his skills.. aren't really useful.

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Well, I think that his attittude to life is very questionable. I mean, he does things without thinking and he has a positive vision that he rides other people's waves for to get there. He's like yeah it's gonna be great and while you save the universe I'll sit here on my couch half naked and think of ways I can get the team in trouble. And of course if you need me to tag along I'll come. Just seems that he has no initiative except to do something historically stupid.

So tell me, what do you see as positive about his attitude because apparently I'm missing something here?

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@PandaTar wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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I wouldn't expect anything less though from someone who can't seem to wrap their heads around a character like Liam.

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Now, now, you are being very gross to people who are not in agreement with your point of view. I haven't even posted in this thread because it was clear that it seemed you just wanted to read what you wanted to read, but you cannot avoid others to state otherwise and shouldn't condescend others like that.

In my county, Liam would have been arrested, for example, and I would concur with it. My views on him is that he places loyalty above all else, and that really doesn't work, neither in a civilian nor military community. What I think Liam was written around is that he considers the protagonist as being Alec still, someone that will put whatever fire anyone starts and, perhaps, overwrite chain of commands, if necessary. What's left to ponder for me is if Liam acts like that because he places too much store on our character, or if he does things like that because, in spite of his good intentions and loyalty, he knows he'll get away with it knowing Ryder is 'soft': I'm simply very sure that Alec wouldn't have this mess happening around him, no matter what.

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No.

It has nothing to do with his opinion of said character. I was simply matching a personal attack with another, which I normally avoid doing, until someone catches me on a bad day and I feel like defending myself instead of pretending its all good.

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@holger1405 wrote:

@PandaTar @Nykara360 @lagruej

Keep it civil guys, Liam is a interesting subject to discuses, I would hate it to close this thread because the discussion goes below the belt. 

@lagruej

"lol" is not exactly a grown up form of response. You have every right to have an different opinion about Liam as @Nykara360 has, (As I have too.) but do not attack him personally just because of that.

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At this point, the thread needs to be locked.

Apparently the question of who likes Liam and what they like about him wasn't clear enough that all the people who dislike the character felt the need to do what I asked not to be done.

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@holger1405 wrote:

@PandaTar @Nykara360 @lagruej

Keep it civil guys, Liam is a interesting subject to discuses, I would hate it to close this thread because the discussion goes below the belt. 

@lagruej

"lol" is not exactly a grown up form of response. You have every right to have an different opinion about Liam as @Nykara360 has, (As I have too.) but do not attack him personally just because of that.

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At this point, the thread needs to be locked.

Apparently the question of who likes Liam and what they like about him wasn't clear enough that all the people who dislike the character felt the need to do what I asked not to be done.

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Sometimes threads go off topic, especially when discussing controversial events and characters that people hold strong views about, such as I Like Sloane. It may be worth it to just roll with the punches and fight your corner. If you do it right you may change some minds or at least have a fun debate.😎

Anyway, Liam's a nice, well-meaning guy, but if Tann ever gets wind of what he has been up to/decides to stop placating Ryder then Liam will be exiled.

Honestly though, if there is an anti-Cerberus, bloody, homicidal, ruthless, at-all-costs terrorists out to ensure everyone just gets along, Liam definitely works for them.😉

@fudgietroll

Sorry, but only Champions and Heroes can have a sig at AHQ, if you are interested look here. 

@Nykara360

I'm sorry. ☹️ I "feel" with you. But the problem is, that he is really, really a hated character. And a lot of people don't understand his behaivor. It have nothing to do with your personality. I thing you are a very nice person, when you write something here in the forum it's always interesting and I like to read it. ❤️

Normal situation after the release of a Bioware game: A lot of (young) men start to hate the "most famous (or the only) romance for straight females". Happen at every Bioware game until now. 😃 Jealous like hell. Lot of this haters are young (of course not all of them). 😉 But with Liam, it's NOT like this.

This time it is something else. I would say: He is the most hated Bioware character EVER. 👮  And if you start a "Love thread" about sutch a hated character it could happen that the people overreact a bit  .... there is a lot of Liam-hate around. You understand?

*HUG's for you*

Put your shirt on mate!   Conversing with him half-naked is quite disturbing.

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@BCFreeman1 wrote:

Put your shirt on mate!   Conversing with him half-naked is quite disturbing.

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At least we aren't conversing with him or Jaal butt-naked, usually

@Rappeldrache

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@Rappeldrache wrote:

@Nykara360

Normal situation after the release of a Bioware game: A lot of (young) men start to hate the "most famous (or the only) romance for straight females". Happen at every Bioware game until now. 😃 Jealous like hell. Lot of this haters are young (of course not all of them). 😉 But with Liam, it's NOT like this.

This time it is something else. I would say: He is the most hated Bioware character EVER. 👮  And if you start a "Love thread" about sutch a hated character it could happen that the people overreact a bit  .... there is a lot of Liam-hate around. You understand?

*HUG's for you*

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I have to ask....when has Bioware EVER done a straight romance for females well??  You say young guys get jealous and bash on them, but holy monkey balls, they are such easy targets because they usually stink....

ME1 Kaiden..whiny, pretty bad squadmate for most of my characters in his skills didn't mesh well, and for me a voice that grated to listen to for long times(personal opinion).  He ditched you in ME2...came back me three late...

ME2....Thane was probably the second best, but he was dying, and pining for his lost love a lot of the time.

ME2....Jacob, meehh, mediocre skills, hung up on Ex--ie Miranda, and then ditches you in ME3(Big time ditches you too).

ME2...Garrus, yeah, the best of the bunch, but not human for those that want that.

ME3....JamesVega...yeah, need I say more.......

MEA....Liam...um, trend of bad characters for straight women continues, if they want non-alien loves......

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@mcsupersport wrote:

@Rappeldrache

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@Rappeldrache wrote:

@Nykara360

Normal situation after the release of a Bioware game: A lot of (young) men start to hate the "most famous (or the only) romance for straight females". Happen at every Bioware game until now. 😃 Jealous like hell. Lot of this haters are young (of course not all of them). 😉 But with Liam, it's NOT like this.

This time it is something else. I would say: He is the most hated Bioware character EVER. 👮  And if you start a "Love thread" about sutch a hated character it could happen that the people overreact a bit  .... there is a lot of Liam-hate around. You understand?

*HUG's for you*

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I have to ask....when has Bioware EVER done a straight romance for females well??  You say young guys get jealous and bash on them, but holy monkey balls, they are such easy targets because they usually stink....

ME1 Kaiden..whiny, pretty bad squadmate for most of my characters in his skills didn't mesh well, and for me a voice that grated to listen to for long times(personal opinion).  He ditched you in ME2...came back me three late...

ME2....Thane was probably the second best, but he was dying, and pining for his lost love a lot of the time.

ME2....Jacob, meehh, mediocre skills, hung up on Ex--ie Miranda, and then ditches you in ME3(Big time ditches you too).

ME2...Garrus, yeah, the best of the bunch, but not human for those that want that.

ME3....JamesVega...yeah, need I say more.......

MEA....Liam...um, trend of bad characters for straight women continues, if they want non-alien loves......

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Kaidan is fine, I have zero issues with Kaidan.

But if you want an even larger list of not great straight romance options in bioware games for females, lets extend that to dragon age -

Alistair - has to sleep with Morigan if you want to live. Will run away if you save Loghain.

Zevran - tries to kill you when you first meet him.

Anders - Blows up the chantry.

Fenris - Mage hater, has a lot of baggage.

Solas - Enough said.

Blackwall - murderer. Has sex with you before telling you he is a murderer.

Cullen - I don't mind him but he does come with a lot of baggage.

Why do us girls *always* get the hard case straight, human looking male romances? Hows about one, good looking, normal guy for a chnage who hasnt been an arse and isn't going to be one. Doesn't die. Doesn't run off etc. You don't do this to the males, so why us?

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@mcsupersport wrote:

@Rappeldrache

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Kaidan is fine, I have zero issues with Kaidan.

But if you want an even larger list of not great straight romance options in bioware games for females, lets extend that to dragon age -

Alistair - has to sleep with Morigan if you want to live. Will run away if you save Loghain.

Zevran - tries to kill you when you first meet him.

Anders - Blows up the chantry.

Fenris - Mage hater, has a lot of baggage.

Solas - Enough said.

Blackwall - murderer. Has sex with you before telling you he is a murderer.

Cullen - I don't mind him but he does come with a lot of baggage.

Why do us girls *always* get the hard case straight, human looking male romances? Hows about one, good looking, normal guy for a chnage who hasnt been an arse and isn't going to be one. Doesn't die. Doesn't run off etc. You don't do this to the males, so why us?

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Lol, you kinda made my point even better.....guys aren't bashing on them because they are love interest to straight women....they are bashing on them cause they are not great people, maybe good characters but not good people.  I can kinda understand, it seems Bioware doesn't want to make a plain good ole nice guy, cause "that would be boring and not real..."

They kinda do it for males, but you are right not as bad.....

Ashley...boring, racist(not really but has rep), walks away in ME2 and can have to be killed ME3....

Tali....needy alien, you can't really see face or so, (better romance for a "nice" play if you like aliens)

Liara.....alien, mono-gender(yeah female, kinda...blue....), naive, (technically can be romanced by a woman and since mono-gendered, not TECHNICALLY a *-romance...)

Miranda.....cold-blooded killer, sterile, has major daddy issues...

Cassandra......hates mages, "ugly" by some peoples report, I like her, but many people don't....

Merrill...needy, will leave you if you fight elves, easily leaves you if you disagree with her.....or killed by protemplar Hawk...

Isabella....loose/*/theif  runs if you don't play just right.....

I wish they would put more effort into making people I would feel comfortable having a relationship with, and not so much having "interesting" characters..

For characters in MEA, I think the reporter Asari is about the closest "normal" character you can romance....

As a guy, even though I play female characters, I usually pick the same sex options for them, I just can't seem to enjoy flirting with a guy, even in a game(yeah, I tried role-playing a straight female before), just couldn't enjoy it, so I am very happy they offer female female romances for my quirk....but I hate to see the crappy ones for straight females, and I wish all the human characters in MEA weren't quite so subtly -wrong and by that I mean, most people seem to be killers, manic depressive, schizophrenic, or just plain loony.....Vetra, Jaal and Drack seem to be about the only real "Normal" regular people on the Tempest.....

Gil--flaky, odd ball..

Peebee--flaky, little girl playing scientist.

Cora--cold, and stuck on wanting to be Asari

Liam....well, enough said on him...

Lexi....weird doctor stuck on acting like everyone's mother/grandmother/scientist watching an experiment..

Kallo....has major flashbacks, and can't remember he is just a pilot, not a engineer/ships designer...

Suvi...Odd ball, scientist who can't remember to NOT taste unknown deadly things...

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@holger1405 wrote:

@PandaTar @Nykara360 @lagruej

Keep it civil guys, Liam is a interesting subject to discuses, I would hate it to close this thread because the discussion goes below the belt. 

@lagruej

"lol" is not exactly a grown up form of response. You have every right to have an different opinion about Liam as @Nykara360 has, (As I have too.) but do not attack him personally just because of that.

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How is saying lol a personal attack?  And how do you determine it to be "not grown up" or "grown up" - seriously, are you the vocabulary police?  Did you write a book on the correct usage of acronyms?  Did you write a second book about which age I can use said acronyms at?  I've been on the internet for almost 20 years - putting lol in a post is second nature, even if nothing is funny - I don't even think about the fact I'm doing it.  Sorry I'm "not grown up enough" for you - maybe you should wash the attempted personal attacks out of your message before calling out other people's.  I don't care how many stars or what rank you have, you aren't God and you certainly don't get to decide how people use language online.  

I also don't really consider it a personal attack, what I wrote - I compared OPs visible fondness to another dislikeable character to the current conversation, but whatever - I'll back down from that point if it's insulting you - but don't try to insult me for using 'lol' and call it a "non grown up response"...  Like a comment that unfounded bears any weight anywhere but in your imagination.   I'm just going to invalidate everything you say because you put "lol."  "You wrote "lol" so you can't have a grown up argument." I'm sure plenty of other people habitually write lol - especially when they can't get over the people they're arguing with and their absurd statements like:
 
"The Civilians on said ships are still allowed to do their own thing in off-duty times and don't have to run to the captain constantly for every little thing. "

Not true at all OP - when you're ON a ship, even on off-duty times - you still obey the captain.  Last I Checked, Liam is living on a couch in our ship - meaning he's under OUR rules the whole time.  Even if he wasn't - treason isn't "every little thing" - I honestly don't know where you're from - but I'm pretty sure most governments irl on Earth would have prosecuted Liam on multiple counts of treason lol

Also you still gonna ignore his war crimes and body desecration on Habitat 7?  Really just polarizing to the alleged "nice", "cool headed" and "rational"  Bioware would have you believe he is.   Liam is a hot mess in a Disney character's body.  

@lagruej

My english is horrible (hey, my french is even worser 😉 ), but when I read your message to @Nykara360 I was like: HEY, this is really unfriendly and abusive. This is NOT ok. So: Even with my mediocre english I have seen that your message was really unfriendly.

I think your message to @holger1405 is also a "bit aggressiv". I don't see a strange or arrogant tone against you. Ok, my english is still horrible .... :eahigh_file:

The direction of the thread / messages starts to be really interesting. I don't want that the thread is closed. Could we please stop accusation?

@lagruej

Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

This is pretty much the definition of taking a personal shot at someone just because you disagree with them. You just said that @Nykara360 is massively self-delusional because she is intolerant, intolerable, moronic, thick headed, and probably hateful to boot. I don't think English is @holger1405's primary language, so I'm going to try and restate the lol comment: "it is childish to assume that adding lol to abusive comments makes them "OK"". If you go up to a coworker and start laying on the F-bombs with a few lols thrown in you will still wind up dealing with HR/some knuckles, and no one will care about the lols. Also, you've been on the internet for 20 years, that makes you an adult. Don't go on a 2 paragraph rant because you are asked to behave like one.

ANYWAY, back on topic...

"The Civilians on said ships are still allowed to do their own thing in off-duty times and don't have to run to the captain constantly for every little thing. "

Not true at all OP - when you're ON a ship, even on off-duty times - you still obey the captain.  Last I Checked, Liam is living on a couch in our ship - meaning he's under OUR rules the whole time.  Even if he wasn't - treason isn't "every little thing" - I honestly don't know where you're from - but I'm pretty sure most governments irl on Earth would have prosecuted Liam on multiple counts of treason lol

Also you still gonna ignore his war crimes and body desecration on Habitat 7?  Really just polarizing to the alleged "nice", "cool headed" and "rational"  Bioware would have you believe he is.   Liam is a hot mess in a Disney character's body.  

To be fair to Liam, IIRC Ryder never specifically forbids Liam from doing what he is doing, at least until Liam's loyalty mission. Nevertheless, if he didn't have a Ryder-shaped shield to hide behind he'd be long gone by the end of the game (given the other people Ryder has unilaterally exiled I'm surprised that wasn't an option here). Honestly, he might be more fun as an exile.

Not sure what war crimes Liam committed on Habitat 7, although he won't stop shooting the last Kett to go down, which is a classic monster movie survival tactic, as well as, IIRC, a relatively common battlefield occurrence relating to shell shock/tunnel vision

@lagruej

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@lagruej wrote:

How is saying lol a personal attack?  And how do you determine it to be "not grown up" or "grown up"

Because you wrote "lol" in about every sentence in your original post and you did that to ridicule @Nykara360

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lagruej wrote:

 I don't care how many stars or what rank you have, you aren't God and you certainly don't get to decide how people use language online.  


 

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Well, on this board I do exactly that.
Your entire post was a clear personal shot @Nykara360

So again, keep it civil and we won't have any problems, if you can't do that I will remove your posts from this thread.

@mcsupersport

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@mcsupersport wrote:

I can kinda understand, it seems Bioware doesn't want to make a plain good ole nice guy, cause "that would be boring and not real..."

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Well, that is about exactly what happened with Kaidan. He was imho a "good ole nice guy". A lot of folks thought he is boring.
It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do. 😉

In my opinion Vetra, Jaal and Drack are also troubled to some extent, Peebee, Gil, Suvi (admitted, a little odd but sweet.) and Kallo on the other hand are pretty normal.

What I'm saying is that the perception of a character inside a Video game, (or a movie) is a completely subjective matter. (This thread shows that clearly.)
This is in fact almost as it is in real life, if you like a person for some reason, you will overlook character flaws more willingly as if you don't like this person.

All what Biowar can do is writhe the characters, people will like this one and hate that one for very personal reasons, no matter how this characters are written. 

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@holger1405 wrote:

@mcsupersport

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@mcsupersport wrote:

I can kinda understand, it seems Bioware doesn't want to make a plain good ole nice guy, cause "that would be boring and not real..."

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Well, that is about exactly what happened with Kaidan. He was imho a "good ole nice guy". A lot of folks thought he is boring.
It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do. 😉

In my opinion Vetra, Jaal and Drack are also troubled to some extent, Peebee, Gil, Suvi (admitted, a little odd but sweet.) and Kallo on the other hand are pretty normal.

What I'm saying is that the perception of a character inside a Video game, (or a movie) is a completely subjective matter. (This thread shows that clearly.)
This is in fact almost as it is in real life, if you like a person for some reason, you will overlook character flaws more willingly as if you don't like this person.

All what Biowar can do is writhe the characters, people will like this one and hate that one for very personal reasons, no matter how this characters are written. 

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How they can win?

Ignore the males who say Kaidan is 'boring' in ME1 and look at the people who actually romanced him and see that they, liked the good guy romance.

They need to make the romances for the ones who will actually be romancing them, not the ones who won't be. Besides... just because a character is good doesn't mean they have to be boring. Garrus is good and not at all boring. Think outside the box, so to speak.

Jack is actually a good character with one hell of a backstory, makes for amazing char development and shes a good romance. Just an example of an interesting but inherently good char.

Kaidan was good. His reacti9n in ME2 was normal and gave the romance a little spice. I did not find him boring.

Cullen is tricky, depends who you talk to.

Jaal's romance is great, very sweet but he is an alien. And he does have one annoying habit, thats flirting with the other girls even after romanced. In a romance wirpth my Ryder he didmnot saynno to Peebee when she suggested they have babies.. seriously?

Hows about a nice, friendly, interesting guy with a fun personality who is totally into our char and not, you know, all the girls around him.. then maybe they get it right. Also human. Just one awesome human guy. Its not that hard. James would have been perfect ... a shame we have to basically date r*pe the one perfect guy to be able to have something with them. Whats with that.

❤️ Clint Eastwood in Space type ..... ❤️

Thats just my personal impression: Cullen had a LAARGGEEEE (female) fanbase. Really a lot of girls and women loved him a lot. 🐲 Solas, Blackwall, Iron Bull had also a fanbase. Fenirs was loved by a lot of girls (and men hehehe), too. Alistair and Zevran also.Look how many Mods are still "in progress" in Dragon Age: Origins with Alistair.

Kaidan had not sooo many fans. NOW he have a few fans more. But when Mass Effect 1 was released the people dit not liked him. He was a bit like this man from Kotor (I have forgotten his name and I had a romance with him ... Carth was his name): He was not sooooo interesting, he was a bit calm and bourgeois. The same with Anomen from Baldurs Gate. Ohhh the people hated the poor Anomen a lot. 😃 I really liked him .... but I was one of the few ..... 😉

Somehow: If the men for a Romance are calm and " in the backgroud" (or bourgeois) with not toooo many (big) problems: The people say they are boring and don't like them.

Sometimes I have the impression: Liam could become a cool character if my Ryder could smacked him in the back of the head, if he is doing or saying a stupid thing ..... If Ryder could say: "Hey! Stop! Don't do this! GROW UP!" 👮

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@fudgietroll wrote:

@lagruej

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Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

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This is pretty much the definition of taking a personal shot at someone just because you disagree with them. You just said that @Nykara360 is massively self-delusional because she is intolerant, intolerable, moronic, thick headed, and probably hateful to boot. I don't think English is @holger1405's primary language, so I'm going to try and restate the lol comment: "it is childish to assume that adding lol to abusive comments makes them "OK"". If you go up to a coworker and start laying on the F-bombs with a few lols thrown in you will still wind up dealing with HR/some knuckles, and no one will care about the lols. Also, you've been on the internet for 20 years, that makes you an adult. Don't go on a 2 paragraph rant because you are asked to behave like one.

ANYWAY, back on topic...

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"The Civilians on said ships are still allowed to do their own thing in off-duty times and don't have to run to the captain constantly for every little thing. "

Not true at all OP - when you're ON a ship, even on off-duty times - you still obey the captain.  Last I Checked, Liam is living on a couch in our ship - meaning he's under OUR rules the whole time.  Even if he wasn't - treason isn't "every little thing" - I honestly don't know where you're from - but I'm pretty sure most governments irl on Earth would have prosecuted Liam on multiple counts of treason lol

Also you still gonna ignore his war crimes and body desecration on Habitat 7?  Really just polarizing to the alleged "nice", "cool headed" and "rational"  Bioware would have you believe he is.   Liam is a hot mess in a Disney character's body.  

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To be fair to Liam, IIRC Ryder never specifically forbids Liam from doing what he is doing, at least until Liam's loyalty mission. Nevertheless, if he didn't have a Ryder-shaped shield to hide behind he'd be long gone by the end of the game (given the other people Ryder has unilaterally exiled I'm surprised that wasn't an option here). Honestly, he might be more fun as an exile.

Not sure what war crimes Liam committed on Habitat 7, although he won't stop shooting the last Kett to go down, which is a classic monster movie survival tactic, as well as, IIRC, a relatively common battlefield occurrence relating to shell shock/tunnel vision

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That loyalty mission- all Liam said was he gave the Angara some nexus nav points. They never even said what nav points, or how bad it really was. People could be making a huge deal out of nothing. Did he give the nav points for the outposts so they could go visit? Something you wouldn't want enemies to have but for allies is fine? It was never even specified beyond a few nexus nav points. With Liam's tendency to over react when things don’t go right, it was probably not even a big deal.

@Nykara360

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@Nykara360 wrote:

             How they can win?

Ignore the males who say Kaidan is 'boring' in ME1 and look at the people who actually romanced him and see that they, liked the good guy romance.

Garrus is good and not at all boring. Think outside the box, so to speak.

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Well, it sounds they already have won when it comes to you. 😉

But seriously, so Bioware made at least two romance options that you liked in the trilogy and with Liam at least one in MEA as it seems. So what do you want more? That they make a game where you like all the romance options?  
Did you consider that all the players with a different taste as you have would be pretty annoyed if there would be only one character-type around to romance?   

What I meant with "It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do" was that there will always people who hate a certainty character.

There are so many people who play Bioware games, (and all of them are different) that it is simply not possible that Bioware can make everyone happy.

Some will hate this character others this one, the point is that it doesn't matter, what matters is how you evaluate the characters and LIs in the game, because the game you play is your game and your game alone.

There are always some meme going around since Mass Effect exists, "Liara is the canon LI for Bioware, that is the canon ending for Bioware, Bioware want us to chooses Reyes over Sloane" and so on and on. And all of that is always wrong, Bioware let you choose what you want, they don't push you in one direction and that is the best thing about Mass Effect, that you can tell your own story inside the story. 

That also counts for Liam. Bioware knew that he would be a controversial character, (well, maybe they didn't expect him to be that controversial. 😉 ) but they new that a lot of folks would not like him and that is exactly what the wanted.
They don't make characters for everyone to love, that would be impossible in the first place, they make characters who trigger emotions, good or bad ones, because in the end it's all about that, make the game emotional.