Forum Discussion

Vander_GCC's avatar
Vander_GCC
Seasoned Newcomer
13 hours ago

[FEEDBACK] A deep overview

I'll start with a quick introduction- I'm Vander, mainly known within the PvZ community as the artist behind the PvZ3:WCHB/Fogbound fanart project, you've very likely have seen some of it already...

I've played PvZ 1 and 2 to completion multiple times, I've played through 3 of PvZ3 soft releases and betas, I've played many of the most popular mods at maximum difficulty. After all this time I do know what makes PvZ as a game unique and fun. I hope that this feedback helps shape the game into the best version of itself.

PART 1 | The good!

Starting with some positivity- I do personally like the game's art direction. While most people do know that I do clearly have my personal gripes with some of its aspects, I do like how colorful it is and how expressive it is, specially on splash art/promo art. Although it sometimes has some problems shinning through the limitations of being a mobile game...

The new original plants are generally great in terms of design and definitely stand out from the honestly lackluster newcomers in PvZ 2. But as I'll discuss later, it's a shame I can't really get to use any of them...

The game has also improved in a lot of aspects from previous releases. There's definitely a lot more content and specially zombie variety to match the big catalogue of plants. However, there's also a lot of aspects that have remained stagnant or even worsened in this newest release, which leads us to...

PART 2 | The bad...

There's a definitely a lot to talk about but I'm gonna focus on the following issues: Leveling, Progression, Level design, Balancing and Game feel. I won't go in too much detail for other things that I would also like to see like an official release for PC (please!). First up...

LEVELING | And why it is incompatible with PvZ on a fundamental level

Leveling has been front and center this past couple of releases and, like most people, I genuinely think that it actively hurts the game. 

Plants vs Zombies from the very beginning has been first and foremost a strategy game. The challenge starts before a level even starts, choosing your seeds correctly being a very important factor of the game's identity. It's both what you choose to bring and how you use it. The wide roster of plants are all options to consider to tackle specific threats, strategize and even play around with not so optimal combinations. A player's power is represented by their options increasing, not by stats increasing with no consideration to the game's balance. Leveling completely ruins this dynamic (and the progression too but that comes later) and here's why:

A big part of the skill expression and fun in PvZ comes from the consistent interactions between plants and zombies that allow the player to tackle all sorts of challenges and situations with nothing more than their own skill and strategy. A Peashooter always defeats a basic zombie in 10 hits. A sunflower always gives 25 sun. A potato mine needs 3 tiles of space to arm on time. A gargantuar needs 2 instas to take down. And many, many more. There are hundreds of consistent and reliable interactions on which the game's strategy and balance is built upon... but leveling completely destroys this.

A peashooter could defeat a zombie in 4 hits or 30 and you will never be able to know exactly since it changes so much. How reliable is a Potato mine if you are never truly sure if it will be able to take out a zombie in one hit? How much safety can I expect from a Wall-nut if it could be eaten away 3 times faster from one level to another? What value comes from learning how to maximize your sun production if a leveled Sunflower produces 2 times more without any change to my strategy? How much of a Gatling pea's identity as a powerhouse is left if I'm doubting if it will be able to handle a couple of basic zombies?

All the fun, balancing, level design and strategy goes down the drain with leveling.  Leveling means that no player ever faces the same level on similar grounds, which means that all the potential fun and unique levels that made the previous games so fun and memorable are outright impossible to replicate. With leveling the difficulty varies from a complete pushover to literally unbeatable with no in-between. With leveling you can never replay a level the same way you did the first time around. With leveling the difficulty becomes artificial making challenges that are not overcome by improving your skills or rethinking your strategy but by grinding or paying to skip the wait. With leveling the balance and identity of plants goes out the window- what is the purpose of Repeater if a leveled Peashooter outperforms it? With leveling the fun of unlocking a new plant to try out disappears as any new addition demands more grind, making players stick with the same few plants they first decided to invest their resources into.

The random level layouts, the inability of manually designing a level that all players will experience equally and leveling making players stick with the same loadout all leads to a repetitive, boring and exhaustive experience. 

It is disheartening to see people stop thinking about their strategy or selection of plants, relying completely on the same couple over-leveled plants to beat everything with no challenge whatsoever. It is so ironic that, in a game whose MAIN gimmick and selling point is the merging system and the "powerful" plants that come from it, the best and easiest strategy is just investing everything on a single T1 plant that ends up completely outclassing its "upgrades". Like genuinely why is the most optimal approach leveling up Cabbage-pult and completely stop using Slaw slinger and Cab-barrage altogether?

In summary, PLEASE REMOVE LEVELING. PvZ 1 and PvZ 2 (for a long time) worked amazingly without leveling for a reason. To this day most players actively avoid engaging with the system in PvZ 2 because it straight up ruins the experience of most of the game outside of things like Arena and Penny's pursuit. Here it is forced upon you from the very beginning and it does nothing but make the game worse.

And leveling is not the only thing causing the game to feel repetitive and boring...

PROGRESSION | Playing through an entire PvZ1 adventure's worth of levels with literally 0 new unlocks

Cutting right to the point: THE PROGRESSION FEELS HORRIBLE, SPECIALLY FOR A F2P PLAYER

While the progression in the previous seedling release wasn't the best per say, I still managed to get a decent amount of new plants, both T2s and T3s. I got to try out what makes a merging system fun: the vast array of plants it gives you access to. In this release however, I feel like I'm not gonna get to try the vast majority of them any time soon...

PvZ1 and PvZ2 had a very straightforward and effective approach to progression, you unlocked a new plant every level or every couple levels, keeping things fresh and dynamic all throughout. Zombies and gimmicks were introduced right along the new plants, showcasing them as an effective counter or even as a threat to what you have been using so far. Levels could be unique and interesting since they had a concrete idea of what plants the player has access to. 

Here you have barely anything since every single plant past the tutorial depends on grind to be unlocked. You use Gatling pea, Peanut and Cab-barrage on repeat for more than 50 levels straight because grinding the zen garden is so artificially slow. People have done the math and it genuinely takes almost 8 months of non-stop optimal grinding to unlock all the CURRENT plants. Personally, it took me a whole week just to unlock Bonk Choy! You don't even get the mono T2 merges for all the T1s, I had to use Bop choy to farm seeds which is the slowest way possible! And going back to the issue with leveling I mentioned earlier, the system as a whole discourages using the higher tier merges. Why?! The situational/niche plants are never going to be used since getting even the good ones takes so much time. How many people are actually gonna ever use Water Chestnut or Endurian?

And that's not the only issue... Making the player choose what plants they get (and make them grind for each one of them) means that some players could genuinely become softlocked if they decide to level up or unlock the "wrong" plants just because they like them. The elemental weaknesses, zombie leveling and zombies that counter specific types of plants (like Parasol and Goalie) means that you can be stuck on a level for a long time with nothing to do but grind levels you already beat and wait around for the Zen garden. What if someone puts their limited resources into Peanut and Peashooter for example and are then forced to face a high level Miner zombie with an under-leveled Potato mine or Bop choy? There's nothing they can do! No amount of skill or strategy is going make a difference. And that feeling of helplessness is horrible, it can very likely make people quit altogether. The dynamic of PvZ's progression depends entirely on the player unlocking new plants to better face newer threats... but here, you are forced to play with suboptimal decks or just sit and wait for weeks on end before being able to make a bit of progress before facing another wall soon after. I myself am stuck in the adventure campaign because I decided to upgrade Potato mine and unlock Bonk choy, not knowing that the actual "correct" decision was to unlock and Nippy cabbage and upgrade Iceberg lettuce to even have a chance to defeat the volcano zombies.

And this doesn't even consider the constant conflicting demand all the modes have for your very limited resources! For example, at this moment I am on the Volcano section of the campaign, the current Lawn patrol gimmick is the Balloon zombie and the current Expedition is on the Campground. If I want to have even a remote chance to beat any of them I have to invest on Iceberg lettuce, Cabbage-pult and Zaptail all the same time but with EXP being gated behind daily rewards and beating levels for the first time I genuinely can't progress on any of them! I barely started my likely 2 week long grind to get Nippy cabbage and by the time I get him, the Lawn Patrol and Expedition are likely to end and change to something completely different.

I've been playing the game this past whole week daily just beating the same 3 Lawn patrol levels over and over, using up all my hearts in the Zen garden and even watching all the daily AD rewards just so I can eventually get to play the actual game for a bit again. All resources are so hard to get, you get so little of them and everything is so expensive, including the microtransactions! I honestly don't feel like $150+ dollar packs are something people are willing to pay for, specially if you can only get 1-2 plants with that. At that point just buy like 30 copies of the original game to get to play with 48 plants... IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO FORK OVER MONEY FOR THE MICROTRANSACTIONS YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE FUN. I see so many people spend so much more time on other games in the Offer-wall section than playing the actual game and that's not a good sign!

So, how to solve it? I can hope but I know big overarching changes are not likely so this is what I would do:

  1. Lower the seed requirement for all unlocks by a lot, at least how it was in the previous seedling build (40 for T2s and 80 for T3s)
  2. Make the hearts (ideally changed to sprouts) be obtainable by chance when playing levels like on previous installments so it is not hard time gated
  3. Unlock at least all the mono T2s upon getting the T1. This makes them at least usable when you first get them and also helps with the grind by not forcing you to do it the slow way at first
  4. Allow some specific T2s that are needed to progress through the campaign be unlockable by beating levels. Nippy cabbage for example could be a good reward a couple of levels into the Volcano section. You can gate them behind a star requirement if necessary so they are not completely superfluous...
  5. Replace the daily scores with a daily level bundle. The daily scores are essentially just a chore, just "play level 1-5 again" or do nothing special and play the game normally and get them anyways. You could instead have a unique assortment of 5 levels each day that reward you with coins and EXP (or even better: no leveling!) and getting the stars means getting more rewards like it is now, with seeds being the final one for getting all 15 stars. The levels can be randomly generated, with any kind of area, combination of zombies and all that 
  6. Add a repeating level reward for the plant pass once you finish it. The pass itself can be completed relatively fast if you consistently complete all daily tasks. This has left most people obtaining plant pass points that are just thrown into the void because you already got to level 20. I'm not sure why that's not here since it is standard on all games with a battle pass system. It could give coins and seeds... just anything so that the task system doesn't just straight up die once you complete the pass
  7. Add a store to buy seeds with coins. Right now you can get a really small amount of seeds for gems but it is not really worth it. It could even just be a rotating store with a limited amount each day. Right now you have barely anything to spend coins on since you get a lot less EXP and everything costs gems for some reason 
  8. Change the friend help system. Instead of giving away Zen garden tools you could maybe have a daily request you could make for a specific type of seed so anyone in your community can donate what they can with some rewards like sprouts or coins for helping others
  9. You should get a reward for not using Mo like in previous games
  10. Zombies should drop coins or gems randomly like they did in previous games
LEVEL DESIGN | And what made the original game so fun

Even looking past leveling and slow progression, the level design is lackluster. There's some very clear issues and it's quite easy to solve them:

  • THE 50% RULE - Any PvZ veteran knows of this mechanic and its absence in this game is felt harshly. Put simply, the 50% rule means that the next wave of zombies is spawned immediately if the collective HP of all zombies of the most recent wave goes below 50%. This simple mechanic alone does wonders for pacing, strategy and player agency. In PvZ 3 however, all waves are tied to a strict timer which leads to a lot of problems which include: levels start right away, with the first zombies spawning seconds after a level starts, giving you no time to think, plan or prepare; you can't take things slowly, stalling doesn't work as you can't hold off zombies to maximize your time if you feel like you need more time to prepare before things get out of hand, everything just comes no matter what you do, making things feel hectic and overwhelming; you can't be fast either, if you beat the zombies too fast you have constant awkward moments where there's nothing happening, making even easy levels feel like a slog; you are not rewarded for winning and you are punished more for losing. Implementing this feature alone would improve the game feel by a lot, it is one of the most important suggestions here!
  • WAVES AND FLAGS - Right now, waves and flag waves feel underwhelming. In previous games you could easily gage the length and difficulty of a level by the amount of flags it had. Levels with 1, 2, 3 or 4 flags all felt very different and it mattered a lot when it came to you strategy. Here however, even the very first level has like 4 flags and there's no feeling of variety since they don't have an impact like they used to. It's disappointing seeing the iconic "A HUGE WAVE OF ZOMBIES IS APPROACHING! " pop up just for a 2 zombies to appear over the course of 10 seconds. Flag waves need to have an impact, they are the high points of a level. It would feel a lot better if levels were a lot more reserved with the amount of flags and in exchange making them actually, you know, a "huge wave of zombies". Also, normal waves don't feel like "waves" either. Zombies spawn slowly 1 by 1 most of the time, like a slow trickle. You generally don't get the feel of a horde approaching like in the previous games, specially since the game has the not so nice tendency of spawning the majority of a wave on a single lane. I do feel like this is another issue caused by leveling (who could have guessed...) because the power of a wave isn't represented by its size but rather the inflated stats of its couple of members. This not only makes it hard or outright impossible to gage the threat level of a wave but it also messes with the identity and presence of the stronger zombies. In the previous games I could easily tell if I could handle a couple of basic zombies coming my way and the presence of an early bucket head was definitely felt. But here even basic zombies could have a ridiculous amount of HP and I won't realize that a level is impossible for me until I see a basic zombie tank a Potato mine with not even its arm falling off. 
  • RANDOMIZED LAYOUTS - Please no randomized layouts that change everyday for some reason. There's potential for interesting levels or challenges using the water and barren tiles but right now they are just used in random preset layouts that don't take into consideration the level they are being used on. Some levels can genuinely become impossible to beat one day just because the randomized layout gives you a a really bad mix. Even if there's a unique layout that does make a level more interesting, tomorrow it's not gonna be like that. The zombies being spread thin, the lack of plant unlocks and the preset of layouts quickly repeating itself makes a lot of the levels feel samey- none stand out, none are memorable. Use the special tiles more sparingly, use them with intent.
  • LEVELING, BAD PROGRESSION AND STALENESS - With progression being tied to a long grind and difficulty varying wildly with the levels of both plants and zombies, it is just not possible to make a fun, unique or memorable level. It is just unfeasible to consider all the possible power levels a player could be in at any given point which just makes all levels default to being uninspired, formulaic and repetitive. People still remember iconic levels like PvZ1's 1-5 or 5-9, or the infamous BWB-30 from PvZ 2. You don't remember a PvZ3 level because it was fun challenge or a unique twist of the formula, you remember the singular zombie special that made the level unfair when you first played it. While the idea of chapters is fun and has a lot potential, right now it feels like there's no cohesiveness to any of the themes. Specials appear and disappear, wherever even if they are completely disconnected to an area's themes. Why is Batter zombie introduced in the volcano? Why is chicken Wrangler introduced in the Campground? Areas feel the weakest they have ever been because they all share the same elements, because there's no intent to when a zombie is introduced since plants are not unlocked naturally, because plants are not tied to an area which means that all gimmicks and zombies are duplicates or not that impactful. Getting Cactus and seeing a Balloon zombie hidden in the fog right after; getting Kernel-pult and realizing the butter instantly defeats Seagull zombies; getting more value out of Pea pod with the help of the minecarts in Wild West. Even PvZ1, which stayed on the same house as its setting, had very distinct and memorable feels for each area. They had ever present gimmicks completely unique to each one that had a big impact to how levels are played: the fog, the pool, night, the roof... But with plants not being unlocked with beating levels, you just can't do that. Imagine if you had to face Digger zombies but you just don't have Starfruit or Magnet-shroom the first 10 times. Imagine having to face Zombonis, but you don't get Spikeweed or Jalapeño until next week. It all just pulls down the potential for greatness all across the game and for what? Monetization..?
BALANCE | Avoid trying to reinvent the wheel

Even if leveling magically disappeared for the better, the game still makes some bizarre choices in balancing that makes returning players feel confused. Most people know I have quite a lot to say when it comes the balance of plants but I'll share the most important ones for now. A lot of these suggestions do depend on leveling being removed but I'll still share them:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. Peashooter should defeat basic zombies in 10 shots, not 17. He should be the standard point of reference for damage like he was the last 2 games
  2. Potato mine and Tangle kelp should reliably defeat basic threats. It's just so bizarre seeing Potato mine doing so little damage
  3. Iceberg lettuce should focus on the freeze and not on the damage, it just fights with Potato mine's role
  4. Sun production values is something that shouldn't be tampered with. It feels so wrong seeing the counter not be multiples of 25 or even of 5 for that matter. Increase production speed if you must, just don't ruin the standard please
  5. Plants should work with stats that are clean round and consistent numbers so players can much more easily make calculations and strategy decisions on the fly. The classic 300 HP standard, the 1800 damage explosives, the 4000HP Wall-nut, etc. What do I make of a Potato mine doing 937 or something like that?
  6. Simple T3s should get something more than just plain stat increases. Like my suggestion of giving Jugger-nut some resistances to common wall counters or giving Gatling pea higher attack speed to differentiate it from just 2 Repeaters
  7. Higher tiers of single use plants should still create duplicates of the T1 when used. It was such a good implementation within the context of a merge system last time and I don't know why it got removed this time around
  8. Bonk choy should attack fast, it feels off seeing him hit so slowly
  9. Instas should activate on contact, not when attacked. It doesn't sound like it but it does make a big difference for game feel. Zombies should walk through them while they do their activation animation, not start eating them, Additionally, instas should explode instantly if they are actually defeated by special attacks, like Es-garg-ot's rollout
  10. Spikeweed should work like it did in previous games. It piercing armor doesn't help a lot when basic zombies have so much health, it just feels like it tickles the zombies
  11. Puff-shroom should be the T1 for mushrooms. It is such a weird decision to make him cost 125 sun. Sun-shroom can easily be Puff + Sunflower
  12. Elemental damage bonuses should only apply to specific zombies and not the basics. Magma zombie from the previous build can definitely be a tank that's weak to ice, but the basics also having that weakness just funnels players into the same strategy and just inflates their stats more as it expects you to use the counter even if you don't have it
  13. Potato mines and Lime bombs should be able to merge even if not armed. You can place them directly on a plant already so it not working the other way around anymore feels bad
  14. Sawgrass and Chainsawgrass should get horizontal range, not vertical
  15. Miner zombies and Volcanologists should activate armed Potato mines when digging
  16. Potato mine, Lime bomb and Golden Yukon should have a smaller hitbox from behind. Right now a Miner zombie can eat a Golden Yukon from behind without being in range of its explosion
  17. Chicken wrangler should release the chickens upon receiving damage. It's so bizarre seeing him take a lot of hits without releasing anything. Also remember the mechanic where he doesn't release them if he's stunned or frozen
  18. Cabbage-pult and their merges shouldn't prioritize flying targets, it sometimes makes it so walking zombies pile up on a lane with nothing you can do about it
  19. Lobbed projectiles should still be able to hit targets in the way if the original target dies before they connect. This is specially a big issue for Cab-barrage and chickens. Additionally, lobbing plants should calculate beforehand if the attack of another lobbing plant is gonna kill a zombie they are targeting before wasting their shots on them
  20.  The area of effect of Lime bomb, Potato mine, Golden Yukon and Iceberg lettuce should be increased horizontally a little bit. At the moment it feels very unforgiving
  21. Wrangle and Mangle kelp should be able to stun-lock a target if they aren't defeated instantly so they just don't get eaten 
  22. Spikeweed should damage Screendoor zombie directly

And now the big ones:

ABOUT SEED SLOTS - It seems that there is going to be a hard limit to 5 seed slots. While 5 is a good starting amount for the early levels to encourage making decisions that matter it quickly becomes an issue as more and more threats that require specific counters start to show up. While the merging system does mean that each T1 also includes a bunch of merges on top, they are all within a similar role/purpose. If a Balloon zombie is present you NEED Cabbage-pult or else you cannot defeat them. Thunder? Umbrella leaf. Miners? Bop choy. This soon leads to the level itself making the decisions for you every time with little to no room for variation or iteration. It feels like a lock and key system where your freedom of making your own deck doesn't fit. Certain plant archetypes are greatly affected by this, like secondary attackers (Spikeweed and Bop choy) or specialized instas (like Tangle kelp and Lime bomb). Sunflower is always a must, so you only really have 4 to work with. If it's never going to increase from 5, there's gonna be a lot of combinations of zombies and gimmicks that would just not be possible to beat. Imagine a level with Parasols, Balloons and miners- this layout alone decides your most of your loadout without any of your input. And if you add thunder and Stealth imps to the mix, there's quite literally just 1 possible deck that can be used. And things are gonna get worse the more zombies and plants get added. I think that aiming for 8 slots for endgame is a good sweet spot, specially taking into account one of the suggestions coming up. More seed slots means that the merging system has a lot more space to truly shine. They could be bought in the shop with coins, like in PvZ 1. But having at least 6 by lvl 50 is certainly gonna be needed.

THE UNFORTUNATE OUTCASTS- A lot of people have certainly noticed that a couple of big archetypes of plants are prominently missing: most instas and tool/gimmick plants. This I can certainly tell is because of the rules currently set by the merge system and the seed slot limit I mentioned. Plants that introduce new mechanics have their own lines that require a T2, a T3 and at least a couple merges with the other T1s. Each new T1 added opens up more holes every time for needed merges and for most, the logistical issues are just not worth it. Tool plants in particular have it the worst, as seen with Lilypad and Plantern, who have been relegated to unobtainable plants automatically placed which sometimes even conflicts with their original purpose. And some plants like Grave buster or Stallia are probably never going to be able to return if things stay the same. Some instas like Cherry bomb or Squash have a hard time fitting in now, specially since it would be too hard or outright impossible to merge them into a mono T2, let alone a T3. But fret not, for I have a solution for both of these! I call them "Tier Xs", "Holding slots" and "Boosted slots":

Examples of possible tier X plants

Tier Xs are plants that can't have a whole line dedicated to them or those who don't exactly fit that well in the merging system (due to how they work). These includes tool plants like Lilypad, very cheap instas that don't have that much potential merges like Stunion and Stallia, or those that do not benefit from merging into a mono T2/3 like Buttercup. These plants would still be able to occasionally merge with other T1, T2 or TX (like Buttercup being a good candidate to get Kernel-pult with Cabbage-pult), but it would be clear that they are mainly meant to be used as stand alone plants. However as I previously mentioned, this would need an increase to the maximum seed slots to properly work but I feel like it is well worth it to give fan favorites or even interesting newcomers a chance to fight the zombies even if they don't fit that well with the merging system.

I'd personally go about this like this: you start with 5 normal slots, but, after a certain level you get the 5th one upgraded to a "higher tier". This upgraded seed slot is now able to hold up to a T2 plant (if it does have one, it has a different background color). You can still pick 5 T1s, or opt for a T2, sacrificing the possible merges made with the T1 for an easier direct access to the merge itself. All the seed slots you unlock afterwards are upgraded too. Once you have all 8 slots, you can upgrade the 8th one to the ultimate tier, making it able to hold up to a T3. Not only does this deepen the strategy of choosing plants, exchanging options for accessibility, it also opens the doors for plants that rely on being reactionarily planted that are merges nonetheless (plants like Guacodile come to mind). Merges of course would still have a sun cost that is the sum of all its components and a fitting CD, taking into consideration its role and power. This means that plants that would be too strong to be T1 but impossible to merge into a T2, like Cherry bomb, can now feasibly work within the rules of the system!

But that's not all! Holding slots are another way of helping these kind of plants work within the system as well. Simply put, they are empty slots that you can use for merging outside of the board itself. You could likely start with 1, and unlock the 2nd not long after. Running out of space to place plants to build up to a T3 late into a level, making it so you have to place them at the front on a risky position? Wanting to build up a higher tier insta but you don't want it to be activated prematurely or end up in a suboptimal position? Wanting to use your favorite explosive cherries but you can only take the T1? Worry not for the holding slot is the solution for all these problems. They allow you to safely merge plants and keep them ready to place for whenever you need them. You can use it to optimize plant cooldowns, to access higher tier instas and use them more optimally, to merge without running out of space, and so much more!

These 3 things would easily allow for all kinds of plants to return without the need to drastically change their identity or functionality. It's a win all around!

MERGING COSTS AND COOLDOWNS- Right now, balancing a plant can be a bit complicated since you have to stick strictly to the sum of the cost and cooldown of its components, leading to a 125 sun Snow pea, the infamous 125 sun Puff-shroom or being completely unable to use Iceberg lettuce as an actual freeze if you need it for merges. A simple solution to more easily manage balancing would be introducing merge costs and refunds. This would apply only to hybrid merges. This simple feature would give a lot more control to the designer to balance the game without being restricted to awkward sun costs or cooldowns. Expensive and cheap merges would be able to coexist a lot more easily without needing to make big changes that affect other plants. Plants with longer cooldowns would also be able to be used for merges more consistently if the resulting plant doesn't really need that big of a cooldown to balance it. It would be automatic and fairly easy to understand right away. This would also apply to the holdings slots idea I described earlier, but the refund could even be applied preemptibly there, so you could make a cheap merge even if the components cost more at first.

In this example, Coldslaw would cost 175 sun, and to merge it, you would need at least 75 sun, since it also counts the cost of Iceberg lettuce. Golden Yukon could refund 25 sun when merged, as the 75 sun cost really hampers its purpose as a little producer since it barely covers its own cost. Other plants like Wall-nut or the hypothetical Cherry pop from the previous image could still keep higher cooldowns if you want to use them as a wall or explosive to keep them balanced, but have a small refund to their seed packet if you use them for merging directly, since keeping plants with a little less immediate impact gated behind higher cooldowns (like Chuk nut or Endurian for example) is not ideal in my opinion.

Mock up of the extra merge cost and refund

PERKS, IF YOU MUST KEEP THEM- I've been pretty clear on my opinion on leveling but there's one aspect about it that could be salvageable if you can't remove the system altogether. Perks could be an interesting way of making a plant stronger without having to mess with its stats or needing to level zombies to ridiculously increasing numbers. However, plant perks feel like a second thought from a design stand point because it feels like the plant they are given too is not considered whatsoever sometimes. Some work pretty well, like the double attack or ricochet perks for Peashooter and Cabbage-pult, some others genuinely leave me confused though. There's some inoffensive but not very useful ones like the goodbye gift perk that boosts a stat when merging or being defeated (it just feels very unimpactful and kinda lame to be honest). On the other hand, that one healing perk is the one that confuses me the most- why does Potato mine and Lime bomb get that? Aren't they supposed to be on the right side of the lawn, and not remain that long on the board anyways? This does make sense with Sunflower for example, but this perk is one of the most counterproductive things you could give to single use plants like them. Bop choy gets it too but I guess it kinda does work since he is meant to be behind a wall plant (although the heal is just so small taking leveling into account so it barely even matters anyways). Spikeweed though... you do know Spikeweed's main thing is going INFRONT of the wall plant right? You will never get anything from this perk on Spikeweed so why give it to him in the first place?

It feels like the lame perks like the heal or the goodbye gift are overused. Also even the cool ones have their issues... #freemygoatghostpepperfromperkprison (Ghost pepper would be a killer TX, just saying...)

Perks really should consider the role of the plant first and foremost and not just be given in mass without any thought. Attackers should get bonuses for attacking, support plants can keep the heal or even a boost, walls should have something that helps them take more hits, instas should get something out of being used not staying in the lawn.

GAME FEEL | The joy of gardening

The last thing I want to discuss is the game feel, the little things that make the experience so enjoyable. I hope that Replanted was a good reminder of how important these aspects are to PvZ as a game and why they should definitely be considered as important. I'll make this another list:

DYNAMIC MUSIC - A very popular suggestion for a reason. PvZ1 and 2's tracks are so memorable because they dynamically adapt to the level as it plays out. New instruments play during big waves or things go all out for the final wave. Right now all tracks feel a bit lackluster, since they keep the same energy all through out and they don't have a strong melodies like the iconic tracks from previous installments

SOUND DESIGN - I personally feel like the sound design in particular is one of the weakest aspects of the game at the moment. Some are nice, specially the little sounds some plants make when merged like Peanut or Golden Yukon, they are very cute; or the sound of the UI outside of the levels themselves. However, the biggest issue I'd say are the attack/hit sounds, which is a big problem since they are the ones that play constantly all level.

I feel like the sound of Peashooter, Cabbage-pult and Zaptail are way too loud and overdesigned once you have a full defense they become incredibly irritating. Previous games had a subtler and "airy" sound that definitely made them tolerable even with a dozen Peashooters firing simultaneously. Here it is just this sharp POP or spring sound that gets annoying very fast. The electric sounds are the worst offender, they just become noise with a couple of Zaptails. Hit sounds are not good either, they feel off. In the previous games each projectile had a unique sound when they landed. Peas had this vibe of something splatting against skin, cabbages felt like a bunch of crunchy leaves breaking apart, Bonk choy's punches had this oomph and impact, specially the uppercut. Here the sound is the same for most plants and the common one is not great to be honest. It feels like someone kicking a sack of potatoes and it's just not satisfying to hear whatsoever. And the bucket and cone hit sounds are not good either, they feel... muffled. Both PvZ 1 and 2 had cones have this very recognizable plastic sound and buckets have this strong but not loud clang that made it very clear who was receiving damage at any given point. There was even a minigame in PvZ 1, invisighouls, that relied entirely in the amazing sound design that PvZ1 had for both plants and zombies. A concept like this just couldn't work in PvZ 3 since the shooting sounds are so loud and overbearing and the hit sounds are so indistinct and hard to notice. And the perk sounds? The Screendoor/parasol hit sounds? The status effects? They are just so loud and repetitive! I struggle to hear anything over the constant indistinct generic woosh that the healing perk makes over and over again! The following is a list of things that I feel should be revisited to make the game satisfying to hear like PvZ1 and not nails on a chalkboard (you could reuse the same sounds again! Why change something so recognizable?) :

  1. Peashooter, Cabbage-pult, Zaptail, Spikeweed, Bop choy and their merges should have more subtle sounds similar to how they were in PvZ 2. Bop choy's line in particular should have a more impactful effect, mainly for the uppercut. Also please implement a system that limits the amount of shooting sounds that can happen per second so things don't devolve into chaos at the end of a level
  2. Sun collection should make the iconic sound from the last 2 games, this current one is just not as good as the classic one
  3. There should be a sound for picking (like crumbling paper) and placing a plant (digging fine dirt), like in the last 2 games
  4. Iceberg Lettuce's freezing sound feels too harsh compared to PvZ 2 in my opinion
  5. There should be zombie biting/eating sounds. That is one of the most recognizable sounds from the original but here the zombies just kinda slap the plants with no sound whatsoever. Remember that wall plants have the biting sound reduced!
  6. Cones and buckets should make sounds similar to those in the previous games, they are not very distinct at the moment
  7. Zombies with unique types of armor should make their own sounds or reuse appropriate ones. Parasol's should definitely be bouncy or like hitting cloth. Batter should use the bucket sounds and Miner should use the cone sounds. Screendoors should make the same metal sound as buckets
  8. Explosive plants are very underwhelming. The explosions feel too "realistic" for their own good and very indistinct from one another. Potato mine for example had an amazing sound effect in PvZ 1, where it felt like something bursting out with a bunch of starch and potatoes settling as debris. 
  9. The cartoony-ness feels restrained when needed and overexaggerated where not. Cabbage-pult's spring like sound is too much for a plant that attacks constantly but a plant like Tangle Kelp could definitely benefit from a more cartoony grabbing effect like it had in the previous 2 games.
  10. The "A HUGE WAVE OF ZOMBIES IS APPROACHING" pop up should have a lot more impact
  11. Gargantuars should feel heavy. The current one feels too light with how it moves and the smashing has no impact. The PvZ 1 gargantuar perfected the vibe with its slow movement and the shaking and smashing effects were top notch. His grunts should be deep and beastly, not goofy like an ogre making funny faces
  12. Es-garg-ot has an above average sound design but it could definitely use a lot more oomph in some of its attacks, specially making the biting sound more menacing and adding drifting like effects to his rollout attack
  13. Chickens, pigeons and any future animals should make a more wild sound when summoned. Right now the chicken sounds feel like the ambient sounds a Minecraft chicken makes and it feels out of place
  14. The Miner and Volcanologist should have a subtler digging sound like shifting dirt, not loud pickaxe noises
  15. Zombies should make more cartoony sounds when doing big motions, like the iconic jumping sound of Pole vaulter in PvZ 1, the spinning effect when Miner comes out the ground
  16. Zombies should have much more iconic and recognizable sounds when spawning in or when doing their ability. Bowler zombie actually does a good job at this but the rest not so much. Balloon zombie could have it like in PvZ1, where there's a balloon inflating sound if the incoming wave has one. Goalie could have like a referee whistle and distant cheering crowd whenever it intercepts a projectile in another lane. There could be an action movie like stinger when a Stealth imp spawns and so much more
  17. Please make Disco zombie's music the one from the original game
  18. Remove most of the sound effects for the less impactful perks, specially the healing one. It only really needs a visual effect to communicate what its doing. The ricochet one is good as is but the double attack one is too sharp of a peak and too loud. 
  19. Speaking of, please remove the stunning sound effect, it is so out of place, loud and plays even when a zombie auto stuns itself like Miner 
  20. Screendoor zombie shouldn't make that loud car like sound when defeated
  21. Zombies should make unique ambient sounds when present in the lawn, like the unique grunts Parasol made in PvZ 2 or maybe a subtle mechanical rustle for Landscaper's weedwhacker. And the common grunts the zombies make should also be more easily heard
  22. Pausing the game should make a sound that's not just the button tapping one, like the scratching record in the original. Same thing for the speed up, it should be like it is in PvZ 2
  23. The jingle that plays when you lose is boring. There should be a unique jingle based on the area like in PvZ 2 or if not, a much more impactful horror riff like PvZ 1 had

VISUALS - I personally feel like the animations of most plants and the VFX are generally good for the most part. However the zombies in particular feel very stiff (even for a zombie!) so here are my suggestions:

  1. Zombies should actually visually eat the plant instead of just awkwardly slapping them or flailing their arms back and forth. The imp is the only one at the moment that does this properly but the rest just don't do it right. They should look like they are grabbing chunks and shoving them down their mouths, they should be visibly biting and leaning forwards to eat, all that stuff
  2. Zombies should consider what killed them for their death animation. They should keep walking for a bit without a head after being defeated by a weak projectile like peas. Them just instantly falling over just feels kinda awkward unless its a much stronger attack like Bonk Choy's uppercut. Also electric attacks should electrocute zombies and turn them into ash. That was one of the most fun details of the previous game and zombies just falling over while being electrocuted feels so wrong. Explosives like Potato mine should send their heads flying and obliterating the body itself to really sell the impact  or well, turning them into ash if its something like Cherry bomb
  3. Tangle kelp and its line should pull zombies into the water if they are on a water tile. It could be like PvZ 1 where it grabs it and goes down with it or like PvZ 2 where it goes deep first and the it sends out tentacles to grab it down
  4. The visual effect of Lime bomb's acid should be a lot more visible, like how chilling makes zombies blue
  5. There should be special effects for plants being defeated with certain hazards. Thunder and falling volcanic rocks should incinerate them like how Explorer did in PvZ 2
  6. Speaking of, thunder feels very underwhelming visually. If a level has thunder it should be rainy and cloudy, I remember there already was a cloudy variation of the lawn for the rain puddles in older versions. And the visual marker should become increasingly opaque instead of flashing, right now it is hard to tell when it will actually strike
  7. Electric plants should be animated like they were in PvZ 2. They should move with these super fast motions where they shift from pose to pose in an instant. Like how Electric peashooter used to move erratically as if being electrocuted for its idle animation or how Lightning reed attacked with this motion as if it was instantly becoming stiff from a shock
  8. Please make the merge tier indicator under the plants a toggle. It is too distracting and based on promo art, it looks really bad in darker areas
  9. And lastly, it would be nice if plants had a little of an offset for when they start attacking. Right now they constantly sync up and it looks kinda bad
CONCLUSION

This was certainly a long read and I'd like to thank you for hearing me out if you made it this far. I do hope that this... 5th time is the charm. In summary:

  • Remove leveling
  • Improve progression by reducing seed costs and making them easier to obtain
  • Unlock certain plants by beating levels
  • Remove the layouts being randomized each day for levels
  • Don't shy away from retreading the path PvZ 1 and 2 took in terms of sound design and animation, they are iconic for a reason
  • Add more seed slots and implement additional systems like the holding or upgraded slots as well as things like the suggested TX so that more types of plants get a chance to return
  • Implement the 50% rule, make waves spawn as hordes and make flag waves be less common but more impactful
  • Remove leveling

Hope this feedback makes it to the team! Cheers - Vander

9 Replies

  • I 1000% agree with all of the points especially with plant leveling and having more slots and slots for non fusion plants

    if pop cap actually follows this advice (and adds vs mode) PvZ 3 could be an incredibly game

  • Doxiun's avatar
    Doxiun
    Seasoned Scout
    9 hours ago

    Your post is very detailed. If the official team seriously studies and adopts it, I believe it will be another chance for PvZ3 to be reborn. I also have a personal suggestion: wouldn't it be more strategic to add a special entry effect during the third-stage plant synthesis?

  • Ive been following your PVZ3 Reworked designs for a while, and this is such a well structured layout. The new seed slots would be such a good option to expand the gameplay since they have never been explored outside of, "Adding More." Hope PopCap sees this and takes inspiration. this is very great.

  • This really puts in words most of my problems with the game, thanks for writing a critique so well structured

  • 19fishw's avatar
    19fishw
    Rising Traveler
    12 hours ago

    Oh, and my biggest gripe - STOP LEVEL LAYOUTS FROM BEING RANDOMIZED. I don't know if that was an oversight from them or intentional, but it turns a level from impossible to easy depending on the day. It also destroys any chance of any specific level feeling unique or memorable.

  • 19fishw's avatar
    19fishw
    Rising Traveler
    12 hours ago

    More feedback I agree with - dynamic music needs to be added. The slow paced tracks are majorly contributing to the levels feeling sluggish and boring. Waves should be menacing, and they'll find it's the music that creates that feeling, not just the high number of zombies.

  • Excellent work lad! This right here is perfect and if this advise is followed, PvZ3 may just become the great game it deserves to be! (Also, love all your artwork of the PvZ2 plants as fusions, followed you for a long time, I'm even the guy that asked if I could use Marighoul in my fanfic! Haven't actually used her yet, but when the time to shine comes, she will shine indeed!)

    Have a good day lad and I hope Popcap/EA sees this!

  • 19fishw's avatar
    19fishw
    Rising Traveler
    12 hours ago

    It's something that has become clear to me after hours of gameplay - the 50% rule should absolutely be added. They can make it their own by tweaking when/where it comes into effect, but it's clear that the gameplay suffers deeply without it. The crazy thing is, I didn't even notice it until it was missing. Now the levels feel unresponsive and unreactive... they feel like a slow-moving conveyor belt of enemies.

    Zombies shouldn't be coming in one at a time. There shouldn't be single coneheads spawning and then five seconds of nothing. The level needs to react to your gameplay. The better you do, the faster the zombies should come. And after a punishing wave, you may need more time to recover.

  • 19fishw's avatar
    19fishw
    Rising Traveler
    12 hours ago

    I agree with so much of this! 

    Adding a sun cost to merges is a big one for me. Otherwise, you'll just have players with 1000 sun and nothing to do with it. Tier 3s should cost that extra sun.

    I can see the game surviving with levelling in it, but I think it does need major reworks to make it actually fun. Right now, each Plant level scales at WAY too high an amount.

    As for sun producers, I completely agree that Sun values should stay at fixed values, 15, 25, 50 etc. for one big reason, and it isn't nostalgia. When I pick up sun, I should actually be able to predict whether I'll be able to plant based on the sun I pick up. If that number is 32 or something that changes every time I level it up, that simply removes that aspect of the game. Right now, Sun gets picked up blindly and the numbers don't matter anymore. Levelling up sun producers could instead quicken the sun production speed, reduce the time that the FIRST sun appears after you plant it, increase the HP of the plant, or produce an extra sun after X productions, depending on the plant.