Balance MEGATHREAD

...You're back, huh? lol

Stop copy-pasting the same thing over and over with half of it being a lie. 

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@tommycool02 wrote:

Stop copy-pasting the same thing over and over with half of it being a lie. 

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I thought it was just me, that guy is annoying.

@ECM_Atlas

Good timing, I was in the process of creating a mega balancing thread myself, didn't know one existed, and there needs to be one.

Copied from my other thread, lacks a bit of formatting due to typing it in my iPad but here are my tweaks...

Rose, the damage output on this class for Ice/Fire requiring charged shots, slowing down the character is just too weak. The ONLY times I've ever lost to someone playing Rose is if they are with 3-4 players, all gunning me down and I'm a Goat. Even as a Goat, if I don't mess up the keys I'm able to escape and return for the kill. Charged shots do too little damage for the time they take, and if you're comparing it like for like with Engineer then why do they hit over 40 per shot with some classes that fire almost 5 times quicker than Rose?

Sunflowers, for the most part are all ranged, they have no splash, no shotgun, and no burst. They're a pure healing class, and I can heal quicker and faster with any Scientist with the heal station/mega heal bomb combo. Scientist got heal beam, so why didn't Sunflower get some power? Or a variation of a weapon, or even a variation that gives a close range weapon.

Peashooters, one of my favourites from GW, but in this they seem so weak against high health zombies. I used Hyper to dance around enemies and kill them, but it doesn't last long enough to kill anything because you need to hit an All Star or Hero with 8 direct hits just to kill them, sure that's possible at range but these maps don't allow for this and if you have no hyper then you might as well turn yellow and transform into a rubber duck. The health is just too low, the damage is also low...it feels like it has half the health of Hero / All Star, and does less damage than Engineer and Scientist.

Previously peashooter could Hyper up high and shoot down for a while, survive and hold their own, but now Pirate and Hero are about to ruin that, they are no longer able to safely setup Gatling and hold their own, so for me and a lot of players they don't even use Gatling anymore. It seems to only be effective indoors, when choking out the zombies...so I feel like this should perhaps give the Peashooter higher armour whilst in the Gatling, and perhaps do a little less damage to compensate. Give Peashooter the ability to jump high all the time like Hero, make it fair!

Scientist is suppose to be a healer, and Engineer is suppose to be support but both are incredible at killing. I can appreciate Pea has Chili bombs and Gatling but, You've given zombies so much power, to me Peashooter could do with a bit more health, maybe 150-200, or at least a variant that gives this much...

Cactus, I know you've pretty much matched Pirate with Cactus, but Tallnuts seem so redundant now, I mean I see a few scattered around but they do absolutely nothing? If you're an attacking cactus, there should be some new ability that can be replaced with Tallnuts. Also pirate has dual weapon capabilities with close range shotgun and long range sniper, why can't cactus have this too? I understand Camo cactus can hit high, but Cactus are just easy pickings for anyone who is close to them, all they do is run, drop mines, put Tallnuts and hope for a lucky shot. Pirates stand their ground and fight.

Chomper, my favourite class by far purely because it doesn't matter how much health a zombie has, or how crazy OP they can kill anything, with skill and sneakiness you can outsmart and trick them and gobble them, which is fine. But you've completely ruined the goop splash and even when I'm hitting someone with it, it seems to be going straight through them. I'm having success hitting floor but that only works when I'm close to them, you've done something to it and it needs fixing. The burrow camera ice skating scenario also needs fixing, it gets you killed more than anything.

Chomp Cannon, it was a great idea and I'm sure every Chomper will agree that the idea is great. But it only does 100 damage, you're not going to kill anyone standing on a roof, Soldiers have 125 and Hero has 200, you might be lucky enough to kill a Scientist who has skilfully manuvoured his way up high but the purpose of this was to kill the camp snipers. It can't kill a pirate either? ZPG hits for 200 or 250 and is enough to one shot everything, so if you're replacing Chompers best ability with a range ability that kills nothing, it's useless? Maybe increase it to 150 or even 200 because if someone is stood still on a roof, they got to go.

Citron, I can appreciate some of the variants that are quite okay, Orange/Ice, but the Iron Citron is so slow, hits for 50 but nobody is ever going to use that?! I noticed something, seems like every class has 200% armour when they're around 15% health, which means the Iron Citron was incapable of killing anything with one shot at 50 health, depending on their health percentage, instead of hitting someone for 50, it would hit for 25 despite being a direct hit. Overall Citron seems alright as well, if you give it a variant with shotgun capabilities or close range action because many a time I've killed one and when you're next to one they have no answer.

EMPeach, this is suppose to be the mech killer, this should stun the Mech for a little longer because right now it feels like they're not even stunned at all. I know 10 seconds is probably too much, but it needs to be a little longer than it is right now.

Corn, I feel should be given a shotgun variant as well.

Theres more, but this is enough for now.

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Now you all think I'm probably crazy, and I love shotguns, but actually plants need more attacking power and if it's at the expense of range firepower then what's the problem?

I'm not at all suggesting to Nerf zombies, even though I feel some classes are ridiculous. I am suggesting plants have similar classes, and variants to create balance now that they also have to attack the zombies. It worked in GW1 because Plants were ALWAYS defending but it doesn't work anymore, and with the new classes added, some of the plants and abilities seem very redundant.

Edited a few spelling mistakes, my iPad likes to make up its own words sometimes.

KnowsNoLimit wrote:
People are going to stop playing your game if they simply aren't having fun.

Lets see what is killing people's fun atm.

- Infinity time would be the biggest one, with it being buggy mess and a tedious thing to grind for and giving no real incentive to pass 25k unless you are going for a high score on the leaderboards. It just feels clumsy. However you are forced into it if you want to unlock all the characters. Which were actually worth going for before the patch nerfed them.

- The majority don't like one sided battles, now if it's true or not is yet to be determined. However the belief right now is that Zombies just stomp everyone in every mode. Personally the only mode I have found this true to be in was Herbal Assault, because Plants lack the proper offense and since GW1 were originally intended to be more defensive orientated.

- Rose being nerfed. This is a big one as well, you have people saying Rose got overly nerfed especially with her health/damage and Ice Rose in particular not being able to freeze a target worth a damn anymore which is a fair call. Then you have others saying the nerf was fine and no other Zombie class should of been buffed and the meta should of played out.

- Then you have the 50% Imp health buff, it's debatable if he needed both his health/damage buffed, but when a group of Mech's just destroy the Plants side at times ofc people are going to have a bad time.

- Super Bean is another thing that is pissing people off and a Super Bean Wave is just down right terrifying.

- Super Brainz is another character people are having issue with. His Tornado with damage reduction is causing alot of problems and his range damage s way too strong which is especially true with Electro Brainz arc damage on multiple targets. It's not fun for people to be chained to death like that and It's obviously not intended for a Melee character to do so.

- People are butt hurt about Captain Deadbeard who's is made out to be more versatile than a Cactus in every way. So Cactus players aren't having fun, because they feel it's unfair.

- Then we have the case of 3 of the most common Scientist's being used to get easy kills, the Marine Biologist, the Chemist, the Zoologist all coming in to warp in your face and lay waste to group of plant before they know what hit them. People certainly aren't enjoying that.

- We also have people not having as much fun with the Soldier, feeling that his rocket jump height got nerfed too much to be able to use smoke screen and ZPG at the same time while in mid air.

- Some people feel the Legendary characters you get in sticker pack has too harsh of RNG and to have any chance of unlocking them is like winning the lottery. Which like IT is hell for the completionist's, so they most certainly aren't having fun.

It's a combination of these and whole lot more which is all contributing to people's lack of fun.

From the xbox one I can say a few things:  Zombies are OP-they win matches by a much larger margin than the plants did before the patch.

Some of the classes are pointless-Rose was too OP, but now she is just a floating * that has a kill me sign in flashing neon dangling from her neck.

I am tired of playing in lobbies were there are an abundance of non-English speaking players who shred you with insta-killing burst damage who seem to have very small hit boxes and more than average health.  The last time, I played a person whose name I could not pronounce except for the BR denotation melted our entire team in a game of team vanquish, to the sum of 32 kills and my team kept filing the ranks of join in-get bs killed by the BR kid-wtf drop out.  That's going to make this game un-fun really fast!

I think Rose got hit a little too hard.  I'm not a Rose user, but since the patch I don't fear her in the slightest.  If I see an Ice Rose, I lick my chops because I know she can't stop my cosmic brains even if she uses all her spells on me.  I'm ok with her being a support character, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be versatile or fend for herself. 

Like a Rose, her thorns should pr1ck you and make you bleed.  It hurts, but you don't die. 

For Ice Rose, she should have her instant freeze and the damage should be 40.  How many uncharged shots should she need to freeze someone is important too. 

For Fire Rose, her charged shot should do between 50-60.

Their uncharged shots need a speed boost and maybe +2 or +3 damage.  Nothing more. 

Since her HP has been reduced, she needs mobility again when charging.  In all honesty though, I don't think her having 125 HP is a bad thing.

For the homing roses, just reduce their damage by a point or two. 

Her spells can stay as they are.  The only problem before was they lasted far too long.

This is my take on Rose fighting against her after the patch.  Its just too easy and I don't expect Rose to always be around a gang of plants.  She still needs to be able to pr1ck you as a Rose does even if it doesn't kill. 

I do want to thank the devs for taking a great shot at this though.  They didn't do too bad a job in the end. On the other hand, everyone saying she is fine and that a plant has to hold her hand every time she is in a fight needs to think it over again.  I'm saying these things because its too easy to take her down now and poor Ice Rose. 

The Zen Cactus should have been left alone.  When the zombies have two 200 HP variants on their side and MECHs, you need a hard hitter like her on your side to soften them up at the least.

You're right on every point.. almost but

There are many aspects that are hidden about the balance of Plants vs Zombies and besides that i think, that whatever they are going to do i hope if they ever buff or nerf something they will do with some criteria.

For example, if Rose will ever be buffed.. than nerfing Imp's life is no Needed, and the same as S.Brainz (besides Electro one) or things will be BROKEN again.

If Deadbard is gonna get nerf and at the same time cactus buffed things will be broken again.

And the same for Chomper/S.Brain.

If you buff a bunch of plants and nerf all zombies things will be unbalanced again.

The firsts days i lost every single match with Plants, but IMHO people duo to the fact plants gameplay SHOULD change instead of being Rose-Carryed are also trying to understand how things are going on.

Post patch people wanted to join only zombies to play Imps, and every game was unbalanced by numbers of people in each time, and mostly Plants was playing Corn which IMHO whatever is great character DOESNT FIT in any way Plants comp and needed to be VERY GOOD at the game in order to be efficient.
We have a situation where the fotm on the zombies side are easy tio play and forgiving (s.zombie is easy and imp now more forgiving due to Rose nerf/more health)

Instead Corn in order to be efficient you need to be good at the game.
A decent Citron player can do the same damage as a "meh" corn player even if Corn is superior, while tanking and doing CCs.
In my honest opinion Citron dont need a buff, he's op, but no one playing him because the reasons is always the same.
People thinks whatever appears in the scoreboards with a lots of kills is OP, whatever killed them is OP.
Op is what give you chance of win.
You can play a Toxic Pea Shooter which has only raw damage in his kit... you deal a decent amount damage while being completely safe and having a good KDA because you can escape with Hype.. and? You play safe and do as much as damage as you can without having a good impact into the game but just wanted to play because "score"
Instead a experience Citron player can do a decent amount of damage at least not so much less then his team-mate the peashooter.. but he bringed the CC that allowed his Pea Shooter team-mate to had the kill, meanwhile being a LITTLE bit tank and having utilies (map pressure, ccs).
What i mean something is Op when gives you more chances to win and be impactful to the game, i can bet a good sunflower main can win more games and no-one will ever know he was the carry, because he ddnt appear on the firsts places on the scoreboard, he ddnt had the kills but some assist, but doesnt mean he ddnt bring any damage.


Corn is borderline Op well only BBQ imho, others Corn are pretty much meh, i think even this character is great, is great but not in the right "situation".
And the fact proof it. After the firsts few days people spamming this guy every single match like 5-6 corn for match, this week i pretty much won more and even when i lose matches are not frustrating, at least on PC (maybe because few people plays it), i havent see more 2 guys on the same team for match.
But i have seen a more balanced teams with more Chompers, Rose, Cactus ...

I still ddnt won many games a plants than zombies but at least IMHO things improved a lot.

But 55% zombies and 45% which is still a decent % of balance.

50/50 is always hard to get in every game.

I suppose I'll put the TLDR changes I posted in another thread first...then explain 'em.

-Corn variants get a more respectable move speed than the turtle crawl they have now.

This is pretty self explanatory. It's not entirely needed as he's already in a good spot now, but I feel that I'll see less TDM-ey matches of herbal assault if the guy could move faster on offense.

-Buff some of the Cacti variants ranged damage and/or increase the damage modifier at closer ranges so skilled cacti can hold their own in a pinch. 

First off, I think that the Zen and Future Cacti are in a great spot currently. (Camo is too, but she just doesn't fit my playstyle)

However, I feel the other variants are just too weak or too clunky to be effective in GW2 - as the zombies have THREE potential bullet sponges on their team, (Two of which have 200 hp baseline) rather than just the All-Star in GW1.  You see a LOT of Super Brainz/Z Mech spam currently - which means you generally empty your clips on one or two targets so you can still try and shoot the low hp zombie classes.

Since the plants can do offense now in Turf Takeover, a defensive ranged model is a bit outdated for the cactus. Deadbeard can defend himself at close range, why can't the Cactus? She needs to be able to defend herself if she gets ambushed - and no amount of hip firing or mine spamming will always protect you from being punched/shot in the face point blank. 

-Increase Citron Beam duration or damage. Buff the shield slightly? Buff the Electro Citron's uncharged shots. (4 damage is NOT okay if you need to spam shots)

Now, before you get on me for suggesting this, I happen to like the Citron as he is now. But you don't see many Citron players these days - which is a shame because his EM-Peach and even his Spin Dash counter a lot of plays from the ever-popular Imp or Super Brainz. He's also got amazing mobility in his Ball form, which lets him flank enemies and push. His beam is pretty damaging to unsuspecting zombies if you space it out properly - and it doubles as deterrence to deadbeards or soldiers insistent on keeping their little camping spots. The beam's fine as is, but increasing the duration or damage slightly would allow for more plays - since the zombies tend to run bullet sponges these days.

If nothing is done with the beam, add a little hp to the shield. And as for the Electro Citron, the uncharged shot should hit around 8-10 baseline. This reminds me of the Future cactus, but it should do less than that since an element's tacked on...and he isn't a true sniper.

-Decrease Super Brainz's health to 175 or less so he's more in line with the chomper. NERF the target arcing on Electro Brainz's beam.

You also don't see too many Chompers these days, despite him being a hard counter to Super Brainz, a destroyer of Z Mechs, or one of the biggest threats to a lone Scientist trying to revive his team. 

As is right now, Super Brainz is too good of an all-rounder. He's a Chomper with a super accurate ranged alternative and ranged nuke, has a gap closer and does more damage than the chomper in close range, and damage resist/snare/AOE all in one. Instakill aside, he's supposed to be the Zombies' answer to the Chomper, not entirely superior to him. At the very least, it'll be easier on the plants if his HP was reduced to 175 or less.

And don't get me started on how ridiculous Electro Brainz's beam is - that should have been nerfed in the last patch.