Forum Discussion

Mysterymaster_OP's avatar
Mysterymaster_OP
Seasoned Hotshot
2 years ago
Solved

Battle for Neighborville: A reflection on it's death.

I've seen a lot of GW2 players wonder when/if GW3 will ever come out.
Fake leaks, speculations, desperation.
Nothing proven, nothing revealed.
Doesn't seem like we'll ever be getting one.
...
But maybe we weren't supposed to get a Garden Warfare 3.
Maybe we were supposed to get something different.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Battle for Neighborville.
What wasted potential.
It's been almost 3 years since the death of the game.
And I'm writing this now as a reflection on it.

When i first heard that EA was releasing the final update LESS THAN A YEAR after the game's release, i was OUTRAGED.
I thought that it was a case of "oh no, new game isn't earning us enough money, stop working on it!".
But it wasn't.
I'm not a fan of EA. I'm really not. I think they're greedy and scummy.
And yet I'm sitting here admitting that BFN could have been something incredible.

My reaction to the beginning of BFN was pretty much exactly the same as everyone else's.
I couldn't wrap my head around why on earth the devs would make the game so different?
Why?? It completely goes against what the previous games did!
I looked at BFN with hate.
...
But I gave it a try anyway. Not a 30-minute try. Not a 1-day try. A 3-month try.
I KNEW that the game's launch was incredibly rough. But the game wouldn't improve if we all refused to touch it.
I bit the bullet, and stuck with it.
And during the game's single-year lifespan, i learned a lot.

BFN was supposed to be a re-imagining of the Garden Warfare formula.
Taking the core concepts and making them even wackier and sillier.
It wasn't the GW3 everyone hoped for. It was BETTER.

BFN did so many things right.
It has massive explorable areas filled to the brim with missions, secrets, easter eggs, and even the ability to start skirmishes that can evolve into full-on battles.
The artstyle is much closer to the classic PVZ style.
Sillier, more cartoony, less gritty.
No variants? No problem. Not only is there a more robust upgrade system that lets you tune your favourite plants and zombies to your liking, but the idea was to add MORE playable characters over time.
Don't have a mic but want to communicate with your team? How about a pseudo-chat system where you can send pre-set messages to convey simple phrases? It's not much, but it's better than what we had in the previous 2 games!

So what happened?
Simply put: The playerbase happened.
The blame for BFN's death lies mostly with the playerbase of GW and GW2.
Sure, there were stupid decisions made by the devs.
Sprint mechanics and map design that caused most combat to only occur directly around the objective instead of all over the place.
Lack of damage falloff causing many characters to be a bit too powerful at range. *cough cough ALL-STAR cough cough*
Bad optimization causing a moderate amount of lag.
Lack of a real closed testing phase causing the launch to have a lot of bugs.
More grind for cosmetics due to lack of sticker packs.
Sub-optimal marketing and advertising.

Busted hit detection.
Zomboss being a complete and utter **** to the zombies with no explanation, absolutely unnecessarily rude behavior (Actually fairly out-of-character for him. Sure, he's not the nicest guy, but in most of his appearances he at least acknowledges his minions' successes and understands they can't be expected to win every situation).

BFN is far from flawless.
It was buggy, it was broken, it was weird, but it was FIXABLE.

All of those issues could have been addressed over time.

"Pfff, yea right, as if the devs would LISTEN to us", i hear you say.
Here's the thing: YES, THEY WOULD HAVE.

BFN had something that none of the previous games had.
ACTUAL FEEDBACK RECOGNITION FROM THE DEVS.
There (was) an entire category on EA answers for BFN feedback.
People reported bugs, gave feedback, and while the devs rarely ever actually responded, they certainly heard.
How do i know that they actually heard and cared?

What proof did I have that the devs actually noticed what was said?
Because they heard what I said regarding Z-Mech.
Z-Mech in BFN was laughably bad at release.
No armor and a lack of sprint. 
It was very easy to take down, and could accomplish little as it slowly trudged along the ground while everyone else ran ahead.
So I submitted feedback.
I made a detailed outline about the Z-Mech.
I analyzed what it's purpose was supposed to be.
A wildcard of chaos? A bunker buster? A tank?
All of those were talked about and addressed.
I outlined the issues with the mech.
I explained why things NEEDED to change.
I suggested giving it back it's armor from GW2.

And guess what?
THE DEVS LISTENED.
They gave the mech armor (a 15% damage reduction) AND gave it the ability to sprint so it could keep up with the fight.
As far as i can tell, NOBODY had ever really talked about this issue before I did.
I had a voice on a critical problem with one of the playable characters, and the devs listened.
This proves the devs CARED about feedback.
They LISTENED to things that people said.
I saw MANY changes happen because people suggested them.

All it took was REAL feedback.

GW players complained and moaned about things in BFN, not realizing THEY COULD TRY TO ACTUALLY INFLUENCE THINGS.
THEY HAD THE POWER TO SUBMIT REAL FEEDBACK THAT THE DEVS WOULD GENUINELY CONSIDER.
They didn't give BFN a CHANCE to improve.
They didn't want to GIVE it a chance.
They didn't wanted to HAVE a chance.
It started off rough, but BFN had massive potential to grow and improve with feedback.
But GW players refused to let it.

They saw something different.
Something unique.
Something that put a twist on the classic GW style.
And they hated it.
They didn't want a new game, they just wanted GW2 again!
That's right.
The players didn't want something new.
They wanted the same game, but with more stuff.
They wanted the exact same formula, the exact same gameplay, the exact same artstyle, the exact same systems, the exact same stuff. But with more of it.

BFN wasn't SUPPOSED to be GW3.
It was an attempt to make something new.
Something BETTER than the previous 2 games.
Something more in line with the classic PVZ style, while retaining the aspects of the shooters.
But change is hard to accept.
And the playerbase looked upon BFN with disgust.
Rather than trying it out for more than 30 minutes and giving feedback, they just defaulted to hating it or giving unhelpful "feedback" that basically consisted of complaining and saying how bad of a game it is.

That's right, going "bro Snapdragon needs a nerf, his attack is too powerful it kills zombies way too fast" is not helpful feedback.

You wanna know what IS helpful? Saying something like "Snapdragon's primary attack needs a nerf, it's range is far too long and does too much damage. Snapdragon is supposed to be about crowd control and forcing zombies to disperse, right? He needs to get in close to cause zombies to scatter away from the flames. But at the moment, Snapdragon is able to outright KILL most zombies at even a moderate range with ease. I think his damage output needs to be reduced to reinforce his role as crowd control."

THAT'S what the devs were looking for. 

But basically nobody did that. They just complained and gave unhelpful, generic "feedback"

Nothing but complaints and ignorance of the already good parts of BFN.

Massive explorable environments? Ignored.
A much more faithful artstyle? Ignored.
A robust upgrade system? Ignored.
More characters with completely different playstyles (not just the same character with a different attack)? Ignored.
A feedback system that the DEVS ACTUALLY LISTENED TO? Ignored.
A solution for mic-less players to communicate with their team? Ignored.

Each and every good thing was tossed aside because the game wasn't exactly like Garden Warfare 2.
The players didn't want something new, they wanted Garden Warfare 2. But bigger.
They wanted the same game but again.  But bigger.

So congratulations, Garden Warfare fans.
You successfully killed off the game that could have been so much better.
You refused to give it a chance.
You took it all at face-value, throwing it in the garbage because it played and looked a bit differently from Garden Warfare.
You couldn't accept that MANY of the issues COULD be fixed with feedback.
You didn't want to see it anymore.
You attacked it.
You hated it.
You tried it for 2 seconds and then dropped it.

This was meant to be your "constantly updated PVZ shooter" to surpass GW and GW2 that you were all begging for.
And you killed it by refusing to accept change.
You killed it by refusing to accept that your feedback could help it be better.
You killed it by refusing to accept that it's artstyle was much more faithful to the franchise.
You killed it. Not the devs.

Yell at me.
Hate me.
Call me a shill or paid actor or whatever else you want.
I had genuine hopes in BFN.
It could have been the best.
But change is scary. And God forbid the GW2 players try anything different.
And so, 3 years later, I STILL mourn the loss of BFN.
The chances of another PVZ shooter are slim to none.
The team that worked on BFN has split up.

The team that cared.
The team that listened.
The team that wanted to try something new.
The team that worked hard to make giant explorable environments.
The team that redesigned everything to make it sillier and wackier and more faithful to the classic PVZ style.
The team that did their damn best to make everything work.

They wanted our inputs.
They heard our inputs.
They wanted our questions.
They answered our questions.

But most players did nothing but ignore it all.
So EA pulled the plug. They really didn't have much of a choice at that point.
The game is discontinued.
It wilted before it even got a chance to bloom.
And I have very serious doubts that anything is going to rise from it's grave.

Rest in peace, Battle for Neighborville.
You WILL be missed.

  • Been a while. I haven't touched the PVZ shooters in like 2 years, and have only started playing them again since last month. In this time I've changed some of my stances on things I've talked about in this thread.
    Do I still believe that BFN had a lot of potential? Yes. Do I still think the community was way too harsh on it? For sure. But... I admit I was a little too biased towards BFN.

    So, what have I changed my mind on?
    The upgrade system as a replacement for variants, for one. I still think it's a neat system, but... it's still a flawed system. Some upgrades feel dang-near essential to use, some are worthless, others are just... mediocre. GW1's upgrades are RNG-dependent and once you get them, that's it, you have them forever, there's no strategy or customization there. I'm gonna be honest, actual garbage system, easily the worst of the 3. BFN's upgrades are either so useful you basically NEED to use them or just mid. GW2 has a good upgrade system, but I do think that locking the more interesting upgrades behind character levels is a bit lame. It doesn't feel "rewarding" it just turns me away from wanting to try out new variants knowing I need to grind before I can get the proper fun stuff. Still the best out of all 3 games though.

    The sprint system is another thing I hate now.
    Man. I was REALLY adamant about justifying the sprint system before. I honestly don't know why I tried to justify this. Removing teleporters in favour of sprinting was dumb. WOW does it water down the gameplay. With sprinting, every class moves at the same speed (I think??), so playing a slower class means (nearly) nothing outside of active combat. Defenders that have just respawned after a point was captured have so little time to set up or get to defensive positions before the attackers show up. It REALLY contributes to the whole "The fight takes place exclusively on/immediately around the objective issue" that BFN suffers from (To be honest this kind of an issue all 3 games suffer from but in GW1 and 2 It was more moderate and not overwhelmingly bad like in BFN)

    The new classes are kind of lame.
    Who the HELL cares about electric slide or snapdragon. Wow, crowd control classes. We totally don't have other classes with CC abilities already.  Acorn and space cadet? "Here's 2 classes that require you to intentionally stack 4 of them for optimal power". Amazing, wow, requiring 4 players to all jump to the same class just to not suck. Or worse, the swarm classes. Ah yes, playable versions of SUMMONABLE MINIONS. They were only fun in the special mode because EVERYONE was a swarmer, so the abilities worked and it was chaos at all times. Who the hell is going to pick them in normal gameplay?? Oh, what about Nightcap and 80's action hero? I GENUINELY FORGOT THEY EXISTED UNTIL I BOOTED UP THE GAME A DAY AGO TO CHECK.

    I do think the game was fundamentally flawed in a lot of ways. And I agree that some of those issues couldn't be fixed. But BFN still did a lot right. The art style is way more faithful to the mainline style, the giant explorable maps were fun, the built-in communication system for people with no mics, the animations are just more fun (art style mentioned again!!!), etc. Not to mention the lack of god-awful ice variants (Words cannot describe how much i hate ice variants, ah yes, the variant type that locks people in place and prevents them from playing the game, wow.)
    ...And of course, the biggest thing of all: The devs genuinely listening to feedback. This is the real part that stings so much. God, i wish more people gave real actual feedback. If GW3 ever does happen, I HIGHLY doubt they'll be as open to feedback as the BFN devs were, and that's gonna suck.

    BFN was weird, it was fundamentally flawed... but I still gotta admit that it does hurt that it died so fast, I do wish the community had given it a better chance than they actually did.

5 Replies

  • [[I have "removed" this post because it was a giant, terribly written/formatted wall of uneeded text and fundamentally misunderstood aspects/mechanics of BFN]]

    [This post was literally just me yapping about stuff I've already said in the main post]

    [Just scroll past this]

  • Mysterymaster_OP's avatar
    Mysterymaster_OP
    Seasoned Hotshot
    2 years ago

    [[I have "removed" this post because it was a giant, terribly written/formatted wall of uneeded text and fundamentally misunderstood aspects/mechanics of BFN]]

    [It was just like, a whole lot of talking about the sprint mechanic and how "not a problem" it was. Ew.]

    [Just scroll past this]

  • Mysterymaster_OP's avatar
    Mysterymaster_OP
    Seasoned Hotshot
    2 years ago

    [[I have "removed" this post because it was a giant, terribly written/formatted wall of uneeded text and fundamentally misunderstood aspects/mechanics of BFN]]

    [It was yet more yapping about the sprint mechanic. I really wanted to defend it, for some reason]

    [Just scroll past this]

  • Been a while. I haven't touched the PVZ shooters in like 2 years, and have only started playing them again since last month. In this time I've changed some of my stances on things I've talked about in this thread.
    Do I still believe that BFN had a lot of potential? Yes. Do I still think the community was way too harsh on it? For sure. But... I admit I was a little too biased towards BFN.

    So, what have I changed my mind on?
    The upgrade system as a replacement for variants, for one. I still think it's a neat system, but... it's still a flawed system. Some upgrades feel dang-near essential to use, some are worthless, others are just... mediocre. GW1's upgrades are RNG-dependent and once you get them, that's it, you have them forever, there's no strategy or customization there. I'm gonna be honest, actual garbage system, easily the worst of the 3. BFN's upgrades are either so useful you basically NEED to use them or just mid. GW2 has a good upgrade system, but I do think that locking the more interesting upgrades behind character levels is a bit lame. It doesn't feel "rewarding" it just turns me away from wanting to try out new variants knowing I need to grind before I can get the proper fun stuff. Still the best out of all 3 games though.

    The sprint system is another thing I hate now.
    Man. I was REALLY adamant about justifying the sprint system before. I honestly don't know why I tried to justify this. Removing teleporters in favour of sprinting was dumb. WOW does it water down the gameplay. With sprinting, every class moves at the same speed (I think??), so playing a slower class means (nearly) nothing outside of active combat. Defenders that have just respawned after a point was captured have so little time to set up or get to defensive positions before the attackers show up. It REALLY contributes to the whole "The fight takes place exclusively on/immediately around the objective issue" that BFN suffers from (To be honest this kind of an issue all 3 games suffer from but in GW1 and 2 It was more moderate and not overwhelmingly bad like in BFN)

    The new classes are kind of lame.
    Who the HELL cares about electric slide or snapdragon. Wow, crowd control classes. We totally don't have other classes with CC abilities already.  Acorn and space cadet? "Here's 2 classes that require you to intentionally stack 4 of them for optimal power". Amazing, wow, requiring 4 players to all jump to the same class just to not suck. Or worse, the swarm classes. Ah yes, playable versions of SUMMONABLE MINIONS. They were only fun in the special mode because EVERYONE was a swarmer, so the abilities worked and it was chaos at all times. Who the hell is going to pick them in normal gameplay?? Oh, what about Nightcap and 80's action hero? I GENUINELY FORGOT THEY EXISTED UNTIL I BOOTED UP THE GAME A DAY AGO TO CHECK.

    I do think the game was fundamentally flawed in a lot of ways. And I agree that some of those issues couldn't be fixed. But BFN still did a lot right. The art style is way more faithful to the mainline style, the giant explorable maps were fun, the built-in communication system for people with no mics, the animations are just more fun (art style mentioned again!!!), etc. Not to mention the lack of god-awful ice variants (Words cannot describe how much i hate ice variants, ah yes, the variant type that locks people in place and prevents them from playing the game, wow.)
    ...And of course, the biggest thing of all: The devs genuinely listening to feedback. This is the real part that stings so much. God, i wish more people gave real actual feedback. If GW3 ever does happen, I HIGHLY doubt they'll be as open to feedback as the BFN devs were, and that's gonna suck.

    BFN was weird, it was fundamentally flawed... but I still gotta admit that it does hurt that it died so fast, I do wish the community had given it a better chance than they actually did.

  • If it was up to me, GW3 would have the following:

    ---The map design principles of GW1. Seems to have the best balance of open/enclosed areas, verticality, and overall map size (Everything feels kinda cramped in GW2, the attackers feel like they spawn too far forward on some points, the points sometimes feel too close to eachother, not enough flank routes sometimes, etc).
          ^^^I guess the core of what I want from the map design is combat happening in more areas than just the immediate area around the objective. Maybe giving the defenders a way to more reliably push out of the objective area would help? I dunno...
    ---No sprinting (duh)
    ---BFN's popup text communication system for mic-less players (plus it's just kinda neat!)
    ---BFN's art style and animations.
         ^^^Or at the very least the BFN mech design, I genuinely adore the more "junk-y scrap-y" style of mech over the generic "smooth futuristic robot" style GW has.
              ^^^Or at the very very very least, the "mech's hand IS the gun" design choice instead of the weird "arm-attached minigun" thing the GW2 mech has going on)).
    ---GW2's upgrade system
    ---The 7 classes from GW2. No torchwood or hover-goat. Ok maybe torchwood and hover-goat, but they'd need to be relegated as special classes again. Or re-imagined entirely into new classes. Whatever, point is, the GW2 classes.
    ---Every class gets a party variant, and these are the only variants that get legendary meters. Party variants are supposed to be special, slightly weaker base variants that have a powerful meter mechanic to compensate for that. Having other "legendary variants" (that are already entirely unique variants) with meters kinda just takes away from the party specialness methinks.
    ---Ice variants can slow but not fully freeze. A frozen opponent is almost always as good as dead (they cannot move or fight back at all so you can lay into them for free), meaning that ice variants are basically "deal X damage and then bypass the enemy's entire remaning health pool", which is UNBELIEVABLY devastating against tankier foes with virtually zero drawbacks.  Locking them to just slowing down hit enemies still lets them interfere with enemies effectively but doesn't let them solo-shutdown mechs or all-stars or torchwoods or citrons or other tanky classes for free.
             ^^^If removing the freeze is really such a deal-breaker, at least let frozen foes still turn around and shoot so they're not totally helpless.
    ---BFN's giant explorable co-op environments. These are genuinely very fun and I love them.
    ---GW2's backyard battleground or some other equivalent big hub area, the one in BFN is really small and kinda lame tbh.
          ^^^The ability to switch between being in a private lobby with friends (Like in GW2) or an open public lobby (like in BFN). I did quite enjoy running around the lobby and interacting with randoms, so It'd be nice if that was still possible in this hypothetical GW3.
    ---The ability to swap which side of your character the camera + reticle is on (which also switches which hand/side the weapon is on for characters that don't have centered/symmetrical attacks (i.e most zombies, rose, citron, and torchwood)
            ^^^It could be a button in the character selection screen so you can swap it when respawning so you can better hold certain angles once you respawn, or even just play with a preferred handed-ness.
    ---A name that isn't just "Garden Warfare 3". I do geniunely like how BFN went with a different name, even if the game itself really didn't hit the mark.
    ---The sticker packs and stickerbook from the GW games, they're neat! But specifically with the design style from GW1, y'know, to make them look like actual stickers.
    ---All the music tracks from GW1, 2, and BFN (regardless of your stance on each game, you gotta admit the music is always great)
    ---All the maps from previous games (Totally understandable if impossible but would be awesome)

    And of course, the single most important thing I would want for GW3:
    A dev team that genuinely wants/listens to feedback.

    So basically just GW2 + Some of the actually good features from BFN + Modification to some variant types + Some quality of life stuff



    I know that people aren't gonna like all of my ideas here, and that's fine. This is just my ideal GW3. Totally understand if people disagree with some of the stuff here.

     

Featured Places