I have never called for nerfing before. I also thought some of the nerfing, like with Valkyrie, were maybe not needed but still was not upset about it. But now I feel the Strawberrian/Strongberry combo is just too strong for too little cost. And the players have figured it out: I would say at LEAST 80% of the time I play Zombie, I face Berries. And 80% of those are with Spudow (which makes sense because he is the best berry deck).Sure, I can beat them and sometimes do. But their win rate is too high. To test my theory, when the latest Tourney began, I decided to use only a berry deck -- and one with NO LEGENDARY cards at all. I logged my win rate: 93%I flew to level 50 faster than ever. And it was boring as hell. Yet so many players are only playing this OP deck. As others have posted, Strawberrian should have been Legendary since day one. And I have always thought the dualing Strongberry "infinite loop" was lame (especially seeing there is STILL a bug with that where the first one can be KILLED and still keep popping back and forth for two hits each). But it is what it is.However, you should not be able to play one card on round three and then the other on round 4 and do THAT much damage, and be nearly unkillable in the process. You can easily wipe the opponent off the board AND do 9 damage in that one round.I have thought a lot about this. I think the best change would be Strawberrian cost 4 and Strongberry 5. AT LEAST make Strawberrian cost 4. And fix the Strongberry "attacks after death" bug.Thoughts?

This is basically a reprint of a post I made on Reddit, but it's how I feel about the whole nerfing sentiment:I'm primarily a plant player. Have been since release. Through every meta, I just have more fun while playing plants. That doesn't mean I don't ever play zombies. More on that in a second.The meta is constantly changing in games like these. Most of the time, that shift comes from the addition of new cards or balance passes... The community then creates new decks based on the changes. Good players with the cards and understanding adapt and succeed. Bad players cry foul and call for nerfs (generally because they don't want to have to change their playstyle from their favorite decks to fit into the new meta.). Plants did it for series three, zombies are doing it now.I've never called for a nerf in this game. Even during the crazy stompadon/QDC/zomblob meta. Instead, when I faced those decks, saw the power and wanted to know how to beat them; I played as them. I learned from other plant players who saw the weaknesses I missed... ...There isn't enough of that going on these days.Berries, heals, cycle cap... They aren't unbeatable is my point. Do I win a lot of games with those decks? Yeah, to be honest. But let's face it, my experience and collection put me as a top tier player. I actually have the current meta berry deck posted on the official forums from before it was meta and people thought berries were trash. Most of the decks I face now aren't top tier players. Most aren't running any removal. Most seem disjointed with no synergy. Most look like someone started and halfway through hit "finish for me." Deadly and Gravestones are far more absent than they should be. It seems like many zombie players are more concerned about trying to set up their favorite deck than actually building ones that respond to the current plant strong meta.But they are beatable. When I do play a top tier, experienced, strong collection owning zombie player; I get stomped. They have built decks to counter the meta. They have built decks designed to ruin my day for playing the overused archetypes of last few seasons. Problem is, these players are rare to come across; and since we all like to win and these decks generally afford me a good win ratio, I'll continue to use them. That is, until you guys start following suit and building decks that make me not want to play them anymore. Until the players change the meta by adapting to the current one. You have more control than you think.Now, I know some of you will say, "sure, but it's unfair. I don't have those cards." Some players can only afford budget decks. They're barely able to put decks together based on the one or two legendaries they have. They're trying to build the strong decks they see online, but can't complete the build, so have to finish their decks off with fluff cards. I get that. We all started somewhere. But there is a hard, nasty truth nobody wants to admit. It stands for every card game, moba, hero shooter, mmo or any game with asymmetrical classes: these games aren't balanced around you. They can't be. They shouldn't be. There's no way to do it. If we balance the game around people that only have half the cards, the people that only have the other half are still unbalanced and those with all the cards will absolutely abuse those imbalances to create truly OP decks, not just flavors of the week.If you think something is op or are just tired of playing against it. Try it for a while. See what beats it when you play as that archtype, then go build a version of that. If you don't have those cards: buy them or craft them. If you're not willing to do that... Well, sorry, your comments on the topic of balance don't really hold a lot of weight in my opinion. They're just entitled cries from sore losers who refuse to adapt.Which leads to my final point: You're going to lose. Everyone does. Stop being a baby about it, learn and adapt. That's pretty much all that needs said.Now, go create new decks. Kick my *. Make me change my decks because the current powerhouses are no longer winning as much. Change the meta!

I agree that Berries can be strong. And annoying. And that it is annoying how strong they can be at low rarities, and how straightforward they are to play. And that is why I think... we shouldn’t nerf them.We’re facing a meta that is getting stale... but not because plants play berries. Because new cards are not being added to the card pool, and old cards are losing their power and flavor via nerf. With very few exceptions, no card that has ever been nerfed is worth playing. (My favorite card to see hit the field is Clique Peas. As soon as it drops, I know that my opponent probably hasn’t adjusted his/her deck much in the last several cycles and my chances of winning have just jumped 100%.) To continue nerfing cards in this environment without adding new ones just shrinks the viable cardpool further, increases the likelihood that a new “best strategy” will emerge, and et cetera. This isn’t a cycle I want to enter into.Add that berries are far from unbeatable. Strawberrian has the potential to deliver the hits, but only if you play into it. I’ve been experimenting with a little zombie control, a little bit of gravestone, a little bit armor, a little bit of Knockout and Zombot’s Wrath. So far my decks aren’t winning quite as often as I’d like them to, but they hose Strawberrian and do great in the Berry matchup.If a new set were dropping every couple of months I’d say go ahead and nerf. As it is, I say: we’ve identified the problem. Now let’s adjust instead of asking the game to adjust for us.

@jj48car I’m telling you: when I see Clique Peas, I win. >90% of the time. Cards seem good when you play them if you win with them, but consider the opportunity cost. There are better 1 drops than Peas. There are better 2 drops than Peas. There are better 3 drops than Peas. Any time it is in your hand, there is a better option at the same cost. Sure, scaling is nice... but the plant is (as we say in mtg) vanilla.As for “making the game staler” by not nerfing...? There is a huge precedent for nerfing in this game, and every time we nerf, the next nerf gets easier. Think about what took a hit before Berries. It was Valkyrie! Berries stink in a Valkyrie meta. So after Berries, Zombies are probably on the block again. And all the while, the sum total of cards in the game gets weaker and less interesting.Please, please, please, no new nerfs until new content.(Another Magic example: Magic doesn’t just nerf cards, it bans them. Many, and not infrequently. It gets away with it because a new set drops every other month or so and refreshes the depleted cardpool and introduces new strategies. Bans without content updates are not sustainable.)

I PLAY two decks berry destroyer and the classic imma put that berry in your dokie machine so deep a tree will grow in yer guts (Pets the other one a trickster-stompa-popa-deck).

You can't really change it without completely destroying berries. They're not even overpowered, as you have just stated.The problem is with the zombie players. Not enough of them are using decks that can defeat berries because instead of responding to the decks that are in play by changing their decks to counter, they expect the game to change around them, so that their favorite deck is still viable.That and I can't tell you just how few players below Platinum use removal cards. If you actually look through the zombie cards in the game, there are at least two (when considering joint classes) that can be used to counter those cards (strawberrian and strongberry) as they come up. That means you have double the chance of countering those cards when they come up as they do of having those cards available on the turn. But again, most zombie players would rather change the game then change their strategy... ... So, if they don't have the counters in their hand, and berry decks continue to have high win rates because of their (zombie's) refusal to adapt and overcome, then you'll continue to see boring Berry decks in play.

Berries MUST be Nerfed | EA Forums

45 Replies

puntwothree
7 years ago
I agree that Berries can be strong. And annoying. And that it is annoying how strong they can be at low rarities, and how straightforward they are to play. And that is why I think... we shouldn’t nerf them.
We’re facing a meta that is getting stale... but not because plants play berries. Because new cards are not being added to the card pool, and old cards are losing their power and flavor via nerf. With very few exceptions, no card that has ever been nerfed is worth playing. (My favorite card to see hit the field is Clique Peas. As soon as it drops, I know that my opponent probably hasn’t adjusted his/her deck much in the last several cycles and my chances of winning have just jumped 100%.) To continue nerfing cards in this environment without adding new ones just shrinks the viable cardpool further, increases the likelihood that a new “best strategy” will emerge, and et cetera. This isn’t a cycle I want to enter into.
Add that berries are far from unbeatable. Strawberrian has the potential to deliver the hits, but only if you play into it. I’ve been experimenting with a little zombie control, a little bit of gravestone, a little bit armor, a little bit of Knockout and Zombot’s Wrath. So far my decks aren’t winning quite as often as I’d like them to, but they hose Strawberrian and do great in the Berry matchup.
If a new set were dropping every couple of months I’d say go ahead and nerf. As it is, I say: we’ve identified the problem. Now let’s adjust instead of asking the game to adjust for us.
jj48car
7 years ago
@puntwothree wrote:
If a new set were dropping every couple of months I’d say go ahead and nerf. As it is, I say: we’ve identified the problem. Now let’s adjust instead of asking the game to adjust for us.
So if the game were changing, change it more, but because it's getting stale, let it get even staler?
And I'll have to disagree with you on Clique Peas. Even post-nerf, I've still found them to be quite useful.
barrysh1tpeas
7 years ago
Ok... yeah... but give it a couple of weeks, because I've been slogging away trying to get to Ultimate Leauge this whole season. Give me 2 weeks
puntwothree
7 years ago
@jj48car I’m telling you: when I see Clique Peas, I win. >90% of the time. Cards seem good when you play them if you win with them, but consider the opportunity cost. There are better 1 drops than Peas. There are better 2 drops than Peas. There are better 3 drops than Peas. Any time it is in your hand, there is a better option at the same cost. Sure, scaling is nice... but the plant is (as we say in mtg) vanilla.
As for “making the game staler” by not nerfing...? There is a huge precedent for nerfing in this game, and every time we nerf, the next nerf gets easier. Think about what took a hit before Berries. It was Valkyrie! Berries stink in a Valkyrie meta. So after Berries, Zombies are probably on the block again. And all the while, the sum total of cards in the game gets weaker and less interesting.
Please, please, please, no new nerfs until new content.
(Another Magic example: Magic doesn’t just nerf cards, it bans them. Many, and not infrequently. It gets away with it because a new set drops every other month or so and refreshes the depleted cardpool and introduces new strategies. Bans without content updates are not sustainable.)
Anonymous
7 years ago
I PLAY two decks berry destroyer and the classic imma put that berry in your dokie machine so deep a tree will grow in yer guts (Pets the other one a trickster-stompa-popa-deck).
daalnnii
7 years ago
This is basically a reprint of a post I made on Reddit, but it's how I feel about the whole nerfing sentiment:
I'm primarily a plant player. Have been since release. Through every meta, I just have more fun while playing plants. That doesn't mean I don't ever play zombies. More on that in a second.
The meta is constantly changing in games like these. Most of the time, that shift comes from the addition of new cards or balance passes... The community then creates new decks based on the changes. Good players with the cards and understanding adapt and succeed. Bad players cry foul and call for nerfs (generally because they don't want to have to change their playstyle from their favorite decks to fit into the new meta.). Plants did it for series three, zombies are doing it now.
I've never called for a nerf in this game. Even during the crazy stompadon/QDC/zomblob meta. Instead, when I faced those decks, saw the power and wanted to know how to beat them; I played as them. I learned from other plant players who saw the weaknesses I missed... ...There isn't enough of that going on these days.
Berries, heals, cycle cap... They aren't unbeatable is my point. Do I win a lot of games with those decks? Yeah, to be honest. But let's face it, my experience and collection put me as a top tier player. I actually have the current meta berry deck posted on the official forums from before it was meta and people thought berries were trash. Most of the decks I face now aren't top tier players. Most aren't running any removal. Most seem disjointed with no synergy. Most look like someone started and halfway through hit "finish for me." Deadly and Gravestones are far more absent than they should be. It seems like many zombie players are more concerned about trying to set up their favorite deck than actually building ones that respond to the current plant strong meta.
But they are beatable. When I do play a top tier, experienced, strong collection owning zombie player; I get stomped. They have built decks to counter the meta. They have built decks designed to ruin my day for playing the overused archetypes of last few seasons. Problem is, these players are rare to come across; and since we all like to win and these decks generally afford me a good win ratio, I'll continue to use them. That is, until you guys start following suit and building decks that make me not want to play them anymore. Until the players change the meta by adapting to the current one. You have more control than you think.
Now, I know some of you will say, "sure, but it's unfair. I don't have those cards." Some players can only afford budget decks. They're barely able to put decks together based on the one or two legendaries they have. They're trying to build the strong decks they see online, but can't complete the build, so have to finish their decks off with fluff cards. I get that. We all started somewhere. But there is a hard, nasty truth nobody wants to admit. It stands for every card game, moba, hero shooter, mmo or any game with asymmetrical classes: these games aren't balanced around you. They can't be. They shouldn't be. There's no way to do it. If we balance the game around people that only have half the cards, the people that only have the other half are still unbalanced and those with all the cards will absolutely abuse those imbalances to create truly OP decks, not just flavors of the week.
If you think something is op or are just tired of playing against it. Try it for a while. See what beats it when you play as that archtype, then go build a version of that. If you don't have those cards: buy them or craft them. If you're not willing to do that... Well, sorry, your comments on the topic of balance don't really hold a lot of weight in my opinion. They're just entitled cries from sore losers who refuse to adapt.
Which leads to my final point: You're going to lose. Everyone does. Stop being a baby about it, learn and adapt. That's pretty much all that needs said.
Now, go create new decks. Kick my *. Make me change my decks because the current powerhouses are no longer winning as much. Change the meta!
Anonymous
7 years ago
Yep that's why trickster it's even more important than ever because most people play berry-Stupid decks, so what's the best counters? Here they are:

1.- Control/Trickster decks
2.- Going Viral decks (Sports, Pirates, Pets [These are budget decks], Stompadon-tempo [kinda expensive])
3.- Gravestone Decks
4.- BMR decks that also are budget decks

And many more but I've been using all those and totally obliterated many Berry-Stupid decks 🙂 sometimes even people add me just to tell me I'm cheating So it's awesome to make those Meta Berry-Stupid decks rage so much they wanna insult me 0, so yeah don't Nerf cards change the way you play
npgibbs
7 years ago
I once tried going thru ranked with a Berry deck from the Diamond league. Flew through the first 2 ranks and then got crushed. Repeatedly.
Berry decks are quite stoppable. Then I went back to my Rose Flower deck and got back to winning.
When things go right in a Berry deck it looks OP. I was using SF and if I was allowed to drop a sunflower on Turn 1 (or Sunburn) and it live and an Imitator on Turn 2 then a Strongberry on Turn 3 It was all but a certain win. I also used to throw in the Strikethrough trick. But at the highest level Zombies use tricks and removals. Lots of them. I find this is why Dragon Fruit is so powerful. Well that and the Amphibious Splash Damage.
TAllenSr
7 years ago
I did not think it was possible, but things have become even worse. I just played 20 games as Zombie, and all 20 were against Berry decks (18 Spudow, 2 Solar Flare). I won 17 of them, but it is SO BORING and SO PREDICTABLE. I was able to GUESS every single card they were going to play, in order...
Currant
Shelf Mushroom
Strawberrian
Strawberrian again or Strongberry
ETC
Sure wish the developers had not abandoned this game and would make an adjustment ... at least to Strawberrian/Strongberry Sun costs.
daalnnii
7 years ago
You can't really change it without completely destroying berries. They're not even overpowered, as you have just stated.
The problem is with the zombie players. Not enough of them are using decks that can defeat berries because instead of responding to the decks that are in play by changing their decks to counter, they expect the game to change around them, so that their favorite deck is still viable.
That and I can't tell you just how few players below Platinum use removal cards. If you actually look through the zombie cards in the game, there are at least two (when considering joint classes) that can be used to counter those cards (strawberrian and strongberry) as they come up. That means you have double the chance of countering those cards when they come up as they do of having those cards available on the turn. But again, most zombie players would rather change the game then change their strategy... ... So, if they don't have the counters in their hand, and berry decks continue to have high win rates because of their (zombie's) refusal to adapt and overcome, then you'll continue to see boring Berry decks in play.