Observations on the game as it was, is, and perhaps will be

Fair points.

But in all honesty the current forum comments relating to maps and balance are (generally) from hardcore gamers who have invested a lot of time and effort into GW1 and perhaps understand what made the original game so good in the first place, so it's fair to say that any negativity made by these members regarding obvious issues are often quite justifiable.

On the subject of maps and balancing I invite you to think about Call of Duty for a moment and ask yourself why a game with probably the most hopelessly unbalanced set of characters imaginable can generate exceptional gamers - even with such a diversity of weapons and loadouts available to choose from. If there was such a permutation then why was it not possible for a gamer to pick the most powerful weapon / loadout setup available, enter a lobby and dominate the game? Why are some gamers outstanding with seemingly uninspiring setups? Why are there no rubbish gamers that do well? When you think about it then it's quite simple - the game itself has acted as the balance by putting everyone on an equal plain, with the only potential advantage being how you develop your skills within the game. The more you play, the better you get - you can't just get a big gun and be good at the game.

In a lot of respects GW1 perfectly emulated the COD scenario because as a fellow member quite correctly pointed out, even though they were never 100% balanced the nature of the game ensured that no single character could dominate in such a way that in order to do well you had no choice but to adopt a specific role in the game. Which is quite important in the general concept of the game because it emulates the COD mentality be giving a gamer the opportunity to choose a character they feel comfortable with and become incredibly skilful at their designated role within the game. It also created a scenario whereby good garden warfarers could potentially top the leaderboards with any single one of the characters available on the basis of their own abilities - and not because they had the biggest guns.

On the other hand GW2 seems to have gone in a completely different direction by offering characters that, due to their absurd power, asks for very limited skills in return for a higher reward. All of a sudden it seems to be cool to present a gamer with a character, plonk him on a map and give him the ability to wander around in a gung-ho fashion in order to rack up a 50 kills / 50 deaths ratio. I can understand that GW2 is designed for all ages and because of which not everyone actually wants to be presented with a game that involves huge amounts of skill and tactical thinking. I can also understand that some people get a great deal of pleasure out of simply wandering around like a mercenary doing all this special ability stuff with these characters but you know, to the purist it kind of detracts from why we all purchased and played GW2 in the first place.

More importantly what PopCap seem to have forgotten is that even though GW1 was a huge strategy / teamwork driven game, gamers of all ages still loved it for what it was and because of which, was there really a need to still make such a radical change in the core gameplay for GW2? Sure, kids probably couldn't achieve 30 kills with their beloved character but that just didn't seem to matter - so long as they could do what they wanted to do within the game. My grandson used to love playing GW1 with the sunflower and you definitely knew when he was in a lobby because the garden perimeter was always a mass of star sprinkling daisies and he just used to wander round with that strangely effeminate sunflower healing people. He probably only ever killed one person in his life but he didn't care because that was his thing and he was happy to be able to do it. I dare say there were (and still are) many, many gamers out there who adopted the game for equally as bizarre reasons. If my grandson is anything to go by then I can only assume that a lot of the original GW1 players are been put in a position that, due to the frantic nature of GW2, they can no longer do their particular thing and as a result simply find no interest in the game. Effectively alienating old players from the new clutch of gamers because their ideals just don't fit into the new scenario. That really is the severity of change that PopCap have implemented.

Because of which, my honest my feeling is that GW2 isn't actually a sequel - it's a brand new game designed for gamers with a completely different mindset. A bit of a shame because I personally was anticipating something more like GW1.5 but hey, that's the way it goes I guess. The only positive I can draw from my experience is that if I do feel inclined to want to wander round a garden with a peashooter then I can still do so- albeit within the reasonably serene confines of the first gardens PopCap presented us with. So (for the time being) hurrah for that.........

Fair points you make as well.

I've never played CoD beyond the original game so can't objectively comment on the game. I have played a couple hundred hours of TF2, GW1, GW2, and BF:1942 back in the day. I've also played many hours of Battleborn and Overwatch. I've been a shooter lover since the original Wolfenstein 3D and of course Doom up to today's versions of those classics.

I do want the classes to be balanced and for people like your grandson to just play as they like as well. A tall order to be sure and I believe the Backyard Battleground is one piece of that puzzle that allows us to just explore and enjoy the world Popcap made for us as well as giving us some crazy battles with multiple bosses and smaller AI as well as friends that visit.

The more diverse the classes are and the more asymmetrical you make your factions, the harder it is to balance so GW1 had these issues as well just not as much as GW2 since the game adds not only 6 more base classes but more variants as well. Is the balance perfect? Not at all. However it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as some here seem to say. Work needs to be done for sure but I've won and lost as both sides in all maps and modes. We're in more of a fine-tune stage than a massive overhaul stage. I think the cactus nerf was unnecessary and the battery in the last stage of Zombopolis was overbuffed but things are getting better.

I enjoy this game more than Overwatch, a dangerous admission in some circles to be sure but I didn't touch Overwatch at all during my week off just now and I played a lot of GW2 and a chunk of GW1. I want it to work for hardcore gamers, kids, casuals, and etc. but that is very difficult to do. The fact that the game is this good and I can easily get my friends to play it speaks volumes.

I do miss the old maps and gestures a lot though. The new maps are gorgeous and I enjoy them all but the old ones have both those attributes as well as the nostalgia factor. Thanks for your reply.

Yep GW2 is literally almost a completely different game for different mindset compare to GW1. one character can do the jobs of almost any character's actual role. why bother to change when one character is so effective in almost any situation. It kinda starts getting boring from then on. been playing less and less lately cause of it.

I have to agree that for looks and diversity the maps are actually very, very well presented but due to their size the vast majority seem kind of wasted in their application. Seeds of time for example. It's a huge beautiful map but because the action areas are generally located within very small pockets of each particular zone the remaining unused areas simply act to prolong your journey back to the action. I have to admit that, much as l like seeds of time, the vast majority of my game time seems to be walking through beautifully drawn scenarios doing absolutely nothing at all. Arriving at a garden also presents a choice. Do I want to play the game as it should be played, knowing full well that if I so much as breathe on that garden i'm going to be instantly killed by something unseen (or a couple of mad swirly super hero killing machines) and have to suffer the eternal walk back again - or do I stay away and just hope for the best.. Multiply that by every single available map and all of a sudden you're getting either a very pointless or potentially tedious game. So, pretty as the maps are, they just don't help themselves with their size.

GW1 worked because the maps were considerably smaller (in some instances a foot soldier could rocket attack a garden within a few seconds of leaving the previous garden) and no matter where you were within the play area something could be going on around you. Everything around you was accessible. Campers and snipers could easily be taken out. Little things like that which made gameplay flow continuously and made it the game it was (and still is). GW2 is fast approaching 6 months old now, has had 2 half price sales on XBL marketplace and despite all it's bells and whistles GW1 still refuses to go away. Kind of tells a story, doesn't it?

You know a funny thing happened the other day. I accidentally selected the wrong game mode whilst playing GW1 multiplayer and ended up in a different game mode (obviously) on a map that in almost 2 years of owning and playing the game had never ever seen before. "Woah, there's actually more of this game?" .. So now I have a brand new GW1 to explore..

As for the old maps, well you really shouldn't be missing them because every one of them are available to play - elsewhere.....

Overwatch is a pretty decent game which (in my opinion) offers the same frenetic gameplay of GW2 but in a more controlled manner. What I particularly like about it - and this is again going back to the COD thing - is that it allows you to pick a character that on paper doesn't look particularly fantastic but allows you to play in a way that suits your gameplay style and develop your skills accordingly. The result is that it creates a feeling that you're playing exactly as you want to and still have the opportunity to be equally as good as the next person. When you consider that the sole purpose of buying a game like Overwatch is purely for the long haul  element then yeah, what it has set out to do is pretty promising. I hope it does well.

It's not a bad thing to prefer GW2 because as you pointed out there's certainly enough initial content to get your teeth into and that in itself will offer a considerable amount of game time. But as time marches on and things get done (several times over) it will lose it's edge - particularly because the multiplayer aspects of the game don't seem to gel enough to warrant any long term appeal - and you may find yourself struggling to justify playing it. Overwatch is initially insanely difficult (some people are already waaay too good at this game) and demands time and effort to persevere whereas GW2 (offline) allows you to take things a little easier so it is kind of understandable that people develop a preference.

And finally the one thing I would particularly like to see within GW2 is an expansion on the good old 'free for all'. Split down the maps into more manageable sections, create a single leaderboard and just let everyone go hammer and tong with any old character on that particular map. It completely removes team domination, character domination and may just make for an interesting alternative to what is currently available in multiplayer. It won't work on some maps but Zombopolis is most definitely made for a mode like this.... Haha, another idea that won't happen 🙂

As I said I intentionally went back and played GW1 again over the weekend. Got some Taco bandits in (I so miss that mode), some Gardens and Graveyards, and the other modes that have made the migration to GW2. Despite GW2’s foibles I found I missed certain aspects of GW2 although I love those old maps. Taco Bandits on Jewel Junction, Vanquish Confirmed on Suburban Flats, etc. were all great moments I recently had. Bringing the old maps to the new game with more class balances would help the old hands of the original game while still supporting the new game. I 100% agree that the old game has some advantage over the new one but the new one has so many other things I consider amazing; the Backyard Battleground, some of the new customizations (although I miss some of the old ones as well), the new classes (balance issues notwithstanding), and the ability to play with bots when you want to just go nuts.

Overwatch is very good. I’m level 57 in the game, focusing mostly on Symmetra, Mercy, and Pharah. One thing I found annoying in that game though is unless my teleporter is up as Symmetra, the walk back to the action is worse than the large maps in GW2. I believe this is largely intentional but nothing is more frustrating than not being able to defend objective A because I’m still running back from spawn. The biggest issue I’ve had in Overwatch isn’t the great players you indicate, although they clearly exist, is such broken teams as 5 Torbjorn’s and a Mercy defending Volskaya’s Point B. That was rage inducing to be sure.

One issue with the GW2 Turf Takeover maps is that the teleporters’ placement in regards to your spawn area and the destination/entry points of the teleporters make me scratch my head. On the 3^rd Moonbase Z point I’ve spawned where the walk to either the teleporter destination or the entry point was pretty much the same distance. That reduces the value of such utilities significantly. Also I’ve spawned and had no idea where the entry point for a teleporter is until I acclimated myself with the maps and this too reduces the value of the teleporters.

I like your idea of a free for all. The game has a decent amount of game modes now, even with the glaring omission of Taco bandits but more is always welcome. I know most people play Turf Takeover but mixing it up is a good thing as well. Perhaps we could have an open world Backyard Battleground or a selection of them where anyone can go instead of a private one just to mix it up with the community for fun. My friends and I have had some good times in our own backyards; getting multiple bosses while several AI characters get in the fight while we do as well is great fun so I can get behind your idea 100%!

That gnome portal in the Town Hall promises something for the future of the game. I still hold out for the old maps to be migrated forward, but adding your idea as well would be great fun.

I'll bring my two cent.

I see alots of mention of taco bandit. But it was honestly the worst gamemode of GW1 for me simply due to how blased it was to plant team,while it was sorta fun for them, it was generally boring to play as a zombie as most of the time you just feel like you're doing nothing useful most of the time. Expect by attempting to get the taco and generally dying because you can't do much with it.

But now that both plant and zombie have both stationary and movable summonable. It could be interesting to have a two-way taco bandit, more like a CTF mode like other game.

As for the balance,like you said, the last patch aren't done much to fix the current problem and even created other one,and thus was rather a step back (rip camo cactus). But even then I still think we're fairly close to fix the OP stuff so that can finally focus at buffing the worst stuff. I mean,current problem in the OP is some citron variant being too strong, Gravity grenade,parrot and possibly Z7 imp and BBQ corn. Once those get (hopefully) fixed,maybe there could be finally a focus for some of the worse alternate abilities,variant as well as some bad upgrade.

For the map, one of the most notifiable change that the new map have is how few there is "safe" and obvious sniping spot now. In one point,it lowered foot soldier dominance which was seriously needed but also kinda hurt cactus viability. Garden center was one of the few map that lacked his problem,which probably explain why is got ported in GW2 and even then,the common sniping spot got a new flanking route which again made them less safe. There also the map in G&G which are overall bigger. But instead moved attacker spawn after capturing a point a bit further and also don't always spawn you in front of the teleporter entrance anymore. All of which make the teleporter seem less useful. Which is imo,a better thing then how mandatory they were in GW1. Capture point in GW2 are also smaller and unlike GW1,generally have next to no cover when inside it. Which probably didn't helped the perception of GW2 being more chaotic then the first one.

As for the old customization stuff in GW1, I can get away with hats and such but I seriously miss the old gestures from GW1,which it not helped by some of them being used for trailer.

I can see them tweaking the old maps to make Snipers less safe and I don't mind that at all. Garden Center does indeed have some fairly minor but important changes that make sniping less lucrative but kept the overall layout largely intact. I like this idea a lot and I hope it bodes well for the old maps. For me it was more about the scenery than anything else and have no issue with some balance tweaks.

Edit: Cacti need to be able to fulfill their role and be fun to play, that needs to be taken into account for map design as well. Captain Deadbeard fills a similar role but due to his nature of dual range firepower is less of an issue.

My zombie team actually won the Taco Bandits game I played in over the weekend. It does favor the defender but I always had a blast with that mode and the theme is highly amusing. A mutual CTF mode like TF2, especially 2-fort where I spent hundreds of hours, would be cool. Perhaps both sides have tacos to defend now? The name alone was good and Dave does love tacos! Zomboss wants to steal Dave's and Dave wants to get his back perhaps?

The teleporters:I can see your point. I never want to play a game where a certain class is absolutely required for your team (Rose/Engineer in this case) but they should be useful and desired. Finding that middle ground is not so easy. Too far one way they become essential, the other way and they're useless. In Overwatch you almost always see Mercy on a team and if not her Lucio, although Mercy seems to be almost required by the competitive crowd.

And yes, the gestures I especially miss as well. We have so few in GW2 and so many old good ones we need back!

I've noticed a lot of the game modes (in both GW's) are hopelessly underused but that's probably down to what Boolerex says in the fact that they're just not very interesting to play. I'm not saying it's the definitive way forward but freshening game modes by introducing different ways to play can't be a bad thing. Free for all is reasonably popular because you can basically do what you want without the need to conform to any rules of gamplay / teamplay whatsoever, so in a lot of respects it's a good alternative to the confines of these 'rule' based scenarios.

Wow, I completely overlooked the backyard and it's multiplayer potential. If you close up the sewers and plant / zombie bases then I have to agree that it would make an excellent alternative. As a single map that doesn't invole progression unlocks it's of a good size to host quite a lot of game types that don't involve converging on a single spot so why not implement it within the selectable multiplayer maps?

Regarding map migration. Much as I adore the GW1 maps (well, the maps I have actually seen lol) I'm not quite sure if reproducing them for GW2 is an entirely good thing. Aside from the fact that they have been played over and over again by just about everyone I don't remain convinced that they will be equally as enjoyable second time around. A sequel perhaps should be a sequel in it's entirety and porting 'classic' maps sometimes takes away the unique feel of a game. A perfect example (from games I have purchased) is Forza 6. F6 is effectively the whole of Forza 5 plus a few extras and simply migrating the entire game into it's sequel has somewhat spoils the 'newness' of the game. PopCap have to be given a great deal of credit because if nothing else they presented a game that bore absolutely no resemblance to it's predecessor, giving the impression that the purchase was indeed for something 100% brand new. My way of thinking is that if GW2 would simply have been GW1 in it's entirety - plus a few more maps - then it's appeal would have been greatly reduced. OK, so the sequel would have probably presented the old maps with more graphical splendour but again, do they really need to be updated to make them better? But everyone has their own opinions as to content so I guess others will disagree...

Re: The gnome portal. I don't know if you have noticed this but there is a near identical town hall in Zombopolis, so it may well be the case that this 'hidden' portal in the backyard town hall simply relates to the already unlocked town hall in Zombopolis... Who knows.

On the gnome portal:

I have noticed the town halls but gnomes are all about temporal power, hence infinity time as a prime example, so some kind of time theme there makes a lot of sense here thematically.

On the old maps:

I see your point about them perhaps being overused. My main interest with it is nostalgic. If/when they do migrate them to the new game there will undoubtedly be changes. All the same I find adding more maps is a good thing. More options for quests and ops is one reason. We also only have 2 Gardens & Graveyards maps and 3 Herbal Assault maps whereas in the old game we had 4 G&G maps (I don't consider the night versions as truly separate maps). That gives GW2 1 more turf takeover map but less variety in the separate types. Even if we don't get the old maps we need more maps.

Honestly I think the largest issue is class and map balance. Once we get those issues under control we can use new maps, class variants, etc.

I'm also curious about the 2 'missing' classes, one from each side that are often brought up among the community in regards to the 2 empty slots, 1 each in the respective home bases in the backyard battleground. More classes may muddy the role waters even more than they are now though.

If I had a dollar for every time I accidently left the booth during a turf takeover game and went to the backyard I would have like 23 bucks.