Plants Suck
Yeah, I feel better in my heart now I've expressed my opinion about this side. It isn't even one class that sucks, it's all of them. Fix Rose Buff Sunflower Fix Chomper Buff Cactus Buff Peashoo...
Forum Discussion
EA_Andy
EA Staff (Retired)
EA Staff (Retired)Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
- A lot of people have mentioned it but plants need more power up close....a shotgun class if you want to call it that...
It's hard to assault a garden when all your choices are long and medium range fighters...when you close the distance a lot of the time plants get shredded...
@FiremanAl wrote:
A lot of people have mentioned it but plants need more power up close....a shotgun class if you want to call it that...
It's hard to assault a garden when all your choices are long and medium range fighters...when you close the distance a lot of the time plants get shredded...I would like to see a shotgun class for sure. Would also aid in defense.
@EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
Andy, he's a troll. He just keeps saying over and over they suck. He complains about their dmg, and then when shown, MATHEMATICALLY, that their dmg is on par, and even in the case that he complained of (Rose vs Engineer) he was shown, MATHEMATICALLY, that Rose has higher dmg/dmg potential, he shrugged it off and changed the subject while continuing to whine.
@EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
1- CACTUS CLASS
The pirates do not walk on the map!
They are born and are already in a high place, can aim where there are plants ...The same for the Super Brains and its variants ...
The CACTUS CLASS (NOT ONLY THE CACTUS ZEN) NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED, mainly make better the long range gun.
2 - CITRON'S CLASS
Needs more damage!!! or more fire rate.
To finish.. The zombies have two classes with 200 life (all star, super hero), plants have only the citron that is weak compared to the zombies.
The zombies can heal your teammates more faster than plants (they have Mega Heal Bomb, Armored Heal Station and that healing I forgot the name- I bealive is Heal Beam - but is equal Sunflower)... Plants have Heal Beam and Heal Flower (this is too slow to heal and easy to kill!!!)
And I agree with
Mentalista013 wrote:
EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
1- CACTUS CLASS
The pirates do not walk on the map!
They are born and are already in a high place, can aim where there are plants ...The same for the Super Brains and its variants ...
The CACTUS CLASS (NOT ONLY THE CACTUS ZEN) NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED, mainly make better the long range gun.
2 - CITRON'S CLASS
Needs more damage!!! or more fire rate.
To finish.. The zombies have two classes with 200 life (all star, super hero), plants have only the citron that is weak compared to the zombies.
The zombies can heal your teammates more faster than plants (they have Mega Heal Bomb, Armored Heal Station and that healing I forgot the name- I bealive is Heal Beam - but is equal Sunflower)... Plants have Heal Beam and Heal Flower (this is too slow to heal and easy to kill!!!)
And I agree with
I can't really comment on #1, as I don't personally have much experience with the Cactus.
#2, Citron is a Tank class, with 2 Crowd Control Abilities (EM Peach and Spin Dash, Spin Dash knocks people back and will disable activated abilities). With his Shield, he has 25 more hp's than either Brainz or All Star, and in ball form he's the fastest toon in the game, by far. So, on top of having 2 CC's, a dmg shield which makes him the highest hp base class in the game, having the highest mobility of all characters in the game, you also would like for him to deal a good amount of damage? Really?
As to healing, the Sunflower is the superior healer to the Scientist. Having both the heal beam and the heal flower (the Scientist has to choose between the heal beam or the heal station). Yes, the Scientist can get the heal bomb, which is delayed, and only heals those within range once, it does less overall healing than the heal flower. Also, I've dispelled the myth that Scientist does more damage than the Sunflower, as both deal 40 DPS over a short burst. But over the course of minutes, the Sunflower actually has the potential to deal more damage than the Scientist, due to not having to reload as often.
The comments above are all facts backed up with math, they aren't opinion.
- Except your DPS is based on optimal range I'm guessing. Scientists are way overpowered in close. Scientists Vs. sunflower up close is a slaughter. And scientist vs sunflower from distance doesn't happen because warp, warp, dead.
@EA_Andy wrote:Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
I wish you wouldn't ask this. Input from the community is the whole reason we ended up with a nearly invincible rose. The same thing is going to happen again if you listen to gamers whine about every character.
@EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
I don't think there are too many changes that need to be done to plant side honestly, other than Rose, and maybe Sunflower.
I think you guys took Rose in the complete wrong direction with the "rework." If you wanted her to be a supportive character, why did you leave her attack untouched and gut her utility abilities?
My concern in terms of balance is that Zombies don't have many drawbacks. They're too safe.
Captain Deadbeard is good both at range as well as in close-quarters combat. His barrel ability gives him extreme mobility and defenses (I don't know why you would buff this, ever). And he really doesn't have any drawbacks at range, whereas the sniper counterpart on plant side, Cactus, is ONLY good at range, and has no escape/defenses available at her disposal other than an unreliable trap or 2.
Super Brainz is another character that is good at both range and melee. His aimed attack (especially in his variants) allow for him to deal tons of damage at a quick rate usually while melting down enemies. Not only that, but his abilities leave him hyper mobile and deal a heavy amount of damage as well, not to mention, he's got survivability in fights too. If we compare to his counterpart (which I assume is Chomper), he completely outclasses him.
Imp is another character with very minor drawbacks. He deals fair amounts of damage in his imp form, and is very difficult to lock down/target since he is so small. What he lacks in survival stats, he more than makes up for in mobility, utility, and offensive stats.
Scientist is a character class that is much too well rounded. Not only does he heal, but he completely outclasses his counterpart (Sunflower) in damage, mobility, and utility. Scientist classes have heavy damage, a way into and out of a fight, and ways to aid their teammates safely. The Sunflower has 2 utility abilities (1 of which is utterly useless when in a fight), and an offensive ability which roots her to the ground (thus leaving her vulnerable).
Those are just some of the main offenders though. I think balance is totally out of whack with this game currently. It's completely biased in favor of the zombie side, because of their lack of clear weaknesses. While writing this, I've played a bunch of games of Suburbanation to do the epic quest for yesterday/today, and I've won every single one of them on zombie side, and lost every single one on plant side. Despite what a lot of the nay-sayers are speaking about on the boards, it has nothing to do with character skill. I'm good on either side, and it has nothing to do with the "Rose crutch," but rather the straight-up imbalance between sides.
Well, Plants and Zombies have similar and comparable DPS. Saying things like the Scientist out does the Sunflower in dmg is uninformed opinion. Would you be surprised to know that the base Sunflower and base Scientist both do 40 DPS?....
I'll tell you one area that the Zombies are completely out classed, but for some reason the average plant team rarely capitalizes on it.... The Plants have a LOT more CC. I'm talking like, 3:1. But, Plants just don't seem to use their CC as much, almost like it's an after thought.
@Rhendyr wrote:
Well, Plants and Zombies have similar and comparable DPS. Saying things like the Scientist out does the Sunflower in dmg is uninformed opinion. Would you be surprised to know that the base Sunflower and base Scientist both do 40 DPS?....
I'll tell you one area that the Zombies are completely out classed, but for some reason the average plant team rarely capitalizes on it.... The Plants have a LOT more CC. I'm talking like, 3:1. But, Plants just don't seem to use their CC as much, almost like it's an after thought.
That is assuming that you've been able to land your attacks; and it's not an uninformed opinion - I clearly play the game and have over 150+ hours invested. An uninformed opinion is people saying "IMP IS WEAK" or "BUFF IMP" last patch when the issue was clearly the damage output on Rose. An uninformed opinion is giving zombies compensation buffs because 1 character class on plant side was a bit unruly at release. As a veteran player of both healing classes, I can straight-up tell you that the scientist is a Hell of a lot stronger than the Sunflower in upfront damage potential. I can 2 shot a Sunflower up close. She can not do the same to me without: a. risking her own life in combat (therefore completely outplaying me as a Scientist) and potentially getting caught out by my allies, or b. Land every single hit on a Scientist (which is virtually impossible with 1-2 escapes and cover).
What point is there to play the Rose (2 of the 3 sources of utility and "CC" that the plants have) at this point if they nerfed her utility to all Hell?
And again, because I've seen a very valid point in a lot of the posts now; why should plants be forced to play cohesively as a team, whereas the zombies can completely stomp 1v1, in small skirmishes, and as a team? Where is the balance in that?
@EA_Andy wrote:
Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
Please bring back the cheesy goop to help spray chompers with their DPS. If you have to rename because it is "promotional" that is fine, but they need a 30 DOT goop. If you guys make a dairy chomper, you can give us milky goop in theme with zombies being weak to calcium.
- Rose needs more health. She's forced to play forward now and with 100 health she just gets obliterated by the General chaos of battle. At least put her on par with engineer and give her 125 health.
Citron is fine, anymore buffs and he'll be too good at capping points.
Pea shooter is fine. Chili bean bomb is so good at putting pressure on cap points it's unreal.
Corn is borderline OP
Chomper needs an overhaul. He needs 200 health. A vast number of quality of life fixes such as fixing the wonky camera when he burrows. Give him invulnerability while he's trying to burrow and please make him swallow faster if he eats a gooped target.
Cactus is so outdated compared to deadbeard. Deadbeard does a better job at sniping, has a shotgun, barrel for extra survivbility and crowd breaking, parrot is so much better than the cactus drone it's embarrassing and to top it off he has massive aoe damage in his cannon ...please. Cactus takes too long to zoom in, moves too slow when zoomed in, has no way to live if someone runs up to her and is so one demensional it's clear she's an older character.
Sunflower is what a healing class should look like, unfortunately, she is totally dwarfed by scientist. Scientist has mobility damage utility and healing, why? Scientist's design by its very nature does not incentivize a player to heal, and that's just bad design unlike the sunflower.
Small tweaks here and there for both plants and zombies is all that's needed. There's no need to go overboard on any one character, except maybe chomper since he's long overdue for some changes.
Super brainz needs 175 health. Electro brainz needs his arc damage and radius reduced.
Deadbeard needs explosive damage on barrel reduced so it's not a 1 shot. His parrots barrage ability needs a delay on it like the cactus has because it is currently undodgable.
Imps are fine if there is 1-2 of them on a team but if there's 4-5 of them on a team, which there often is, the mechs just become unmanageable. Increase cool down on gravity grenade. Reduce damage slightly on mechs.
Solider is a worse version of corn. Take corns health back a bit or give soldier the same treatment and buff him to 150 health.
Scientist shouldn't be off killing players by himself with a couple of hits. His damage should be complimenting his teams and as such forcing him into the support role where he belongs. He should be following his team around and supporting them, like the sunflower. To do that, he needs a damage nerf across the board on all close range variants. Doesn't make sense that a healing class can 2-3 shot you in a matter of seconds then teleport to safety.
Engineer is what a support class should look like. Probably the most balanced zombie.
I'll bet anything that the next set of patch notes will involve an electro brainz nerf, rose hp buff and some bug fixes and we'll have to wait s year for this game to be balanced completely. Thanks for your reply, I thought I'd take a day or two away from the forums because I wouldn't be able to handle the negativity from players on the first or second day, now that I have a clear mind and I've dominated with the zombies for another two days I can comment fairly.
I have just levelled my Electro Hero from Level 1, to Master in just over an hour. Please can can someone explain to me how that class is balanced? Now what surprises me is that the thing I was shooting at was dying second, it was everything else around it that was dying first.
Rose, the damage output on this class for Ice/Fire requiring charged shots, slowing down the character is just too weak. The ONLY times I've ever lost to someone playing Rose is if they are with 3-4 players, all gunning me down and I'm a Goat. Even as a Goat, if I don't mess up the keys I'm able to escape and return for the kill. Charged shots do too little damage for the time they take, and if you're comparing it like for like with Engineer then why do they hit over 40 per shot with some classes that fire almost 5 times quicker than Rose?
Sunflowers, for the most part are all ranged, they have no splash, no shotgun, and no burst. They're a pure healing class, and I can heal quicker and faster with any Scientist with the heal station/mega heal bomb combo. Scientist got heal beam, so why didn't Sunflower get some power? Or a variation of a weapon, or even a variation that gives a close range weapon.
Peashooters, one of my favourites from GW, but in this they seem so weak against high health zombies. I used Hyper to dance around enemies and kill them, but it doesn't last long enough to kill anything because you need to hit an All Star or Hero with 8 direct hits just to kill them, sure that's possible at range but these maps don't allow for this and if you have no hyper then you might as well turn yellow and transform into a rubber duck. The health is just too low, the damage is also low...it feels like it has half the health of Hero / All Star, and does less damage than Engineer and Scientist.
Previously peashooter could Hyper up high and shoot down for a while, survive and hold their own, but now Pirate and Hero are about to ruin that, they are no longer able to safely setup Gatling and hold their own, so for me and a lot of players they don't even use Gatling anymore. It seems to only be effective indoors, when choking out the zombies...so I feel like this should perhaps give the Peashooter higher armour whilst in the Gatling, and perhaps do a little less damage to compensate. Give Peashooter the ability to jump high all the time like Hero, make it fair!
Scientist is suppose to be a healer, and Engineer is suppose to be support but both are incredible at killing. I can appreciate Pea has Chili bombs and Gatling but, You've given zombies so much power, to me Peashooter could do with a bit more health, maybe 150-200, or at least a variant that gives this much...
Cactus, I know you've pretty much matched Pirate with Cactus, but Tallnuts seem so redundant now, I mean I see a few scattered around but they do absolutely nothing? If you're an attacking cactus, there should be some new ability that can be replaced with Tallnuts. Also pirate has dual weapon capabilities with close range shotgun and long range sniper, why can't cactus have this too? I understand Camo cactus can hit high, but Cactus are just easy pickings for anyone who is close to them, all they do is run, drop mines, put Tallnuts and hope for a lucky shot. Pirates stand their ground and fight.
Chomper, my favourite class by far purely because it doesn't matter how much health a zombie has, or how crazy OP they can kill anything, with skill and sneakiness you can outsmart and trick them and gobble them, which is fine. But you've completely ruined the goop splash and even when I'm hitting someone with it, it seems to be going straight through them. I'm having success hitting floor but that only works when I'm close to them, you've done something to it and it needs fixing. The burrow camera ice skating scenario also needs fixing, it gets you killed more than anything.
Chomp Cannon, it was a great idea and I'm sure every Chomper will agree that the idea is great. But it only does 100 damage, you're not going to kill anyone standing on a roof, Soldiers have 125 and Hero has 200, you might be lucky enough to kill a Scientist who has skilfully manuvoured his way up high but the purpose of this was to kill the camp snipers. It can't kill a pirate either? ZPG hits for 200 or 250 and is enough to one shot everything, so if you're replacing Chompers best ability with a range ability that kills nothing, it's useless? Maybe increase it to 150 or even 200 because if someone is stood still on a roof, they got to go.
Citron, I can appreciate some of the variants that are quite okay, Orange/Ice, but the Iron Citron is so slow, hits for 50 but nobody is ever going to use that?! I noticed something, seems like every class has 200% armour when they're around 15% health, which means the Iron Citron was incapable of killing anything with one shot at 50 health, depending on their health percentage, instead of hitting someone for 50, it would hit for 25 despite being a direct hit. Overall Citron seems alright as well, if you give it a variant with shotgun capabilities or close range action because many a time I've killed one and when you're next to one they have no answer.
EMPeach, this is suppose to be the mech killer, this should stun the Mech for a little longer because right now it feels like they're not even stunned at all. I know 10 seconds is probably too much, but it needs to be a little longer than it is right now.
Corn, I feel should be given a shotgun variant as well.
Theres more, but this is enough for now.
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Now you all think I'm probably crazy, and I love shotguns, but actually plants need more attacking power and if it's at the expense of range firepower then what's the problem?
I'm not at all suggesting to Nerf zombies, even though I feel some classes are ridiculous. I am suggesting plants have similar classes, and variants to create balance now that they also have to attack the zombies. It worked in GW1 because Plants were ALWAYS defending but it doesn't work anymore, and with the new classes added, some of the plants and abilities seem very redundant.
Edited a few spelling mistakes, my iPad likes to make up its own words sometimes.
Thanks for all your input everyone, I needed to take a few days away from the forums because Rhendyr was getting on my nerves, calling me a troll just because I want balance.
I do hope my reply above can prove exactly this.
Well thought out post. Nice to see you've come back with a much clearer head!
I agree in part with what you've put as well. Not that I think plants are at the massive disadvantage some people think they are, but because some classes seem pointless now, and are simply overshadowed by better plants.
Sunflower I disagree with though, she's so perfectly balanced - please leave her be.
When I play plants, It's really hard to for plants to have effective counters to the scientists, even chompers die to scientists. This alone is why games are blowouts and zombies win. You have stun grenades counter chompers. Barrel, cannon, jackhammer, etc. And with all those counters, they still cant effectively kill scientists, which is why super brains is able to wreck as much as he does. Zombies will always dominate the close quarters game, because plants team just dont synergize as much as zombies do imo. As a sunflower i cant heal easily because it requires close quarters most the time. I can run scientist and maintain a heal beam of science all day on brains and mechs while shredding with shotty where sunflower just watches chompers get wrecked. Chompers just never truly pull through as effectively as scientist or brains can imo. The cqc game is very lacking for plants. Thats really all.
@EA_Andy wrote:Hey @Zaheen1337
Is there a particular way you would like to see the plants "buffed" or "fixed" ? Any ability changes you'd like to see?
- Andy -
Yes, and that would be to buff Citron's shield. Although he has good fire rate on his weapon and a generous health pool, the fact that he can't tank even when he is defined as a tank class is sad. The solution: Buff the shields health and lower the cooldown. His kit supports a disrupt and kill playstyle, where you use the EMPeach to stun, then shoot with your laser. However, he can hardly live through an engagement because you can get rid of the shield quite easily with regular damage(and for some reason Gravity Grenades), and then the health doesn't matter. I feel like he was only nerfed in the first place because people saw teams full of them in the beta, but that was only to counter the teams full of imps. With the current meta, it is pointless to play him over classes that might actually make a difference on the battlefield. If the shield could be buffed back to where it was in the beta, you would probably see more Citrons being played, as well as the plants winning on some of these larger game modes.
Bump, they still suck.
