I like, but didn't see anything about Deadbeards Shark laser or Scientist Porcupines needing nerfs.
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11 Replies
Sharkbite is supposed to be a mirror to the Camo Cactus - yet he just simply outclasses her in most everything but damage. The simple thing would be to just buff the Camo Cactus, but the problem is that Sharkbite handles and plays a lot better than a Sidegrade should. (aka in a few ways, he's a direct upgrade)
As for the Zoologist, I think he's a bit too safe with his current clip size. 3-4 shots will take out most plants, which means you can warp in and quickly kill 2-3 plants. 30 damage is pretty good for an automatic shotgun.
Upgrades make his clip size 11 and damage 33...
Not that it's needed but well, thank you very much.
Bump
Anyone got any thoughts on the new and improved suggestions? 🙂
I tend to leave upgrades out of balance suggestions because you can only have three - and they generally aren't huge gamechangers. Not everyone has access to all of them - old players or new. You still have to level up to get them - and people approach this in different ways. (Some focus on maxing a few, others get as many up as they can)
Making it a little harder to get there is balance in itself. Sure, they can pick 1-2 upgrades that skirt around that when they get there - but the point is that it limits their beneficial choices by them trying to keep the status quo.
@Zaheen1337 wrote:
Bump
Anyone got any thoughts on the new and improved suggestions? 🙂
I'll go with it,I might be repeating myself from some of my post in here,but didn't saw you responding soooo:
Cactus: I'm still in the belief that cacti don't need a shotgun just because deadboard have one and that deadboard need to be nerfed instead,mainly from that come of his drone (5 hp vs 20 hp). But your alternate ability idea is interesting and something cactus could use.
Chomper: Indifferent for health buff
5 damage increase for bite variant (expect maybe armor chomper) and 2 damage increase for spray variant would be better. Chomp thing also probably need moar
Agree with damage reduction while digesting,although 50% might be a bit too much. 30% would be a better number imo.
No 100% damage reduction for burrow plz,it not meant to be used as a immediate get-out-of-jail tool. A progressive damage resist would be better.
Digestion speed should be based at hp,with the current speed being for a full health all-star/superbrain (as well as the cap). But a flat digestion speed reduction work too.
And agree with the rest. Altrough I preferred when you proposed just 150 damage for direct hit for chomp cannon,but it don't matter much.
Citron: Agree with all of those
Corn: Isn't it a unlockable already? Well it should if it isn't the case.
Peashooter: Peashooter is fine and don't need any buff. He's already have Hyper for "closing the gap" And dealing with zombie at close range,he don't need a second ability that do the same thing,but better.
Rose: Imo she don't need a health buff,she actually have a tight hitbox,a good jump and arcane enigma for her survivability.
+5 damage is just way too much. I do agree for a small damage buff to back it was before as she a bit lacking in that,she clearly don't need that much.
Fire and ice could be a bit faster while charging. But she probably don't need the change completely reverted. Like I said earlier,she actually quite dodgy normally.
Primary seem to be working fine? I mean homing exist,but isn't a aimbot like it was during release. Which is fine that way.
Sunflower: Plz no shotgun,I already told you why at some other topic but I'll repeat my state here: Sunflower primary right now is nowhere near bad to fight at close range right now,worse,a shotgun would actually make her weaker at mid range as she will be forced to aim for that which would force her to be slower as well as limiting your FOV. Which is clearly not that she need... You're trying to make her some sort of glorified scientist with that change.
Why replacing the actually fine and even really good sunbeam with a glorified Z-mech?
The alternate ability...Invulnerably with damage increase in a 5 second duration would be OP as hell too.
I actually don't mind sunflower to get a buff usually,but those change are just changing her way too much as well of making her stupidly OP.
Any zombie is pretty much capable of killing every plant, in almost any given situation with very few exceptions.
It should be the same the other way around. My suggestions to you might see extreme, but that's because you don't play any of these classes right? Every plant should be capable of killing every zombie, and that goes for the Mech too, it shouldn't require THREE players to take it out, not unless the plants team can have 30 players against a team of 10 zombies.
I want to play a game that is thriving for years to come, and is balanced, one that doesn't favour one side or another, right now zombies got major love and plants didn't get jack.
Also BBButter is for deluxe versions only, think they're just juicing more money out of players and that's why they buffed Corn out, so people feel like they need to upgrade.
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Thanks 🙂
@Zaheen1337 wrote:
Any zombie is pretty much capable of killing every plant, in almost any given situation with very few exceptions.
Let's not over-exaggerate the problem here. Plant aren't sitting duck incapable of defending themselves. I'm gonna make a small analysis of all the match-up between plant and zombie and post the result once I have done. Sure they're gonna be some match up that are lopsided. But yet again,it far from being that bad,especially for peashooter. (and arguably rose and sunflower)
@Zaheen1337 wrote:
and that goes for the Mech too, it shouldn't require THREE players to take it out, not unless the plants team can have 30 players against a team of 10 zombies.Again here,you forgot to note that the Z-mech is limited to a rather long cooldown that don't replenish in death and that give a very notable sound cue that one is coming. You act like that the Z-mech is a class in his own,while it just... limited. This is seriously far to be the main reason as why the zombie team is OP. I have yet to see a full team of imp all calling the Z-mech at the same time too.
Honestly I haven't noticed any trend with certain maps after the rose patch. I've seen plants stop zombies at almost any garden on Seeds of Time except for Azia or The first point. In Zomburbia, the zombies can breach the wall and cross into the plants side, but the flip side of that is that it takes only 2-3 citrons/peas to hyper past them and take the objective since the defense is now being turned to offense. Rather than a whole team being more effective on certain maps, it feels like certain variants/classes are just better.
I know why you suggest the high damage dealer shark bite is close to the "high damage cactus" camo. However the only thing those two variants have in common is the increased zoom, which for camo nerfs her to be nigh exclusively long range.
Future Cactus is the better comparison since her damage isn't reliant on Headshots like Camo, her charged shots do splash dmg like Captain Sharkbite's, her basic attacks are lasers like Sharkbite's, and she does the most damage with a basic attack.
Shark bite feels overtuned since it seems he doesn't seem to have a weakness that sets him as a side grade to the regular variant. In actuality his weakness is more magnified than any other Dead Beard because of his increased zoom. Due to the nature of how their weapons work, i.e. shotgun unzoomed, sniper ADS, the range to counter them is mid range ideally right outside shotgun range. A lot of plants make the mistake of rushing him even though he has a shotgun (Sharkbite's is actually significantly weaker than the base variant too).
The reason Shark Bite feels like he's straight up better is because it's hard to define mid range engagements, and to capitalize on classes/variants that excel in this range as a counter. Additionally, exceptional positioning by a Sharkbite can make him seem unkillable since his reliable mid/close range counters don't work. However he is still a weaker sniper than mystic, or future, or, if you're lucky and pray hard enough, camo cactus, so anyone of those can still counter snipe him.
tldr; Shark Bite's "OP ness" comes from how sniping is a safe play style and he is a better sniper than the other variants.
If 2-3 imps stay imps for a duration, the cool down's on mechs are relatively synced so that there can be "Mech Rushes," where 2-4 come at a time. However Z-Mechs are easily shut down by planted peas, planted sun flowers, Ice Citron, and Shuck Shot+Husk Hop. Then the mech goes on a longer cool down than any of those other abilities.
You know I'm never going to agree with you right? I've done as much testing as anyone can do, and there's some things I'm even afraid of talking about in great detail because the more people that know about it, the worse things will be. 🙂
@Zaheen1337 wrote:
You know I'm never going to agree with you right? I've done as much testing as anyone can do, and there's some things I'm even afraid of talking about in great detail because the more people that know about it, the worse things will be. 🙂
Go with it.
Thanks for the posting that - it was well written and you also weren't wrong in making that comparison. While he doesn't have the faster fire rate like the FC, he does have similar quick damage potential.
I'm well aware of Sharkbite's weaknesses, especially in close range. Which is why I tried to express that he feels like a straight upgrade at long ranged fighting. I never said he WAS one overall. (Leading at closer ranges is awkward with the zoom. And his shotgun, although spammable, is weak)
Personally, Future Cactus is probably my favorite Cacti Variant. (Followed by Zen or Jade) I dominated the scoreboards with her in GW1 because I was great at killing Soldiers in their perches, and I could kill people quickly who tried to sneak a cap. The best part is that she's just as good as she was in the first game - provided you don't get too much pressure from Super Brainz or Imps. I saw a lot of similarities in him to my old standby by playing Sharkbite around launch. It was only after later reading his description that I realized he had the same Zoom gimmick as the Camo Cactus. (Which I always hated personally - it made the Camo Cactus far too clunky between that and her awful reload speed.)
In fact, I'd much rather see that mechanic go away entirely because you NEED your peripherals to anticipate attacks at close range. I'm not saying the Camo Cactus should play exactly him, but she should at least get similar zoom-in speeds. Things have changed since the first game.
The meta will change. And I'm sure that Deadbeard will get a lot more people shooting at him once the Superhero spam stops. I certainly like to countersnipe them if I can get away with it.
The only reason I'm saying he needs to be looked at in the first place - is that Flameface and Cpt. Cannon are pretty underwhelming atm. ESPECIALLY when it comes to their hilariously bad shotgun attacks. To be fair though, I'd much rather see these variants get a slight buff rather than nerfing him. Flameface is still usable at range - but his ammo count is low, his shotgun does the similar damage and is twice as wasteful. Cannon is terrible at sniping, but decent at mid/close range fights if you can get the detonation mechanic under your belt. It's kinda sad that he has 5 total variants - and two of them are borderline useless. (The last is a rare spawn that's undertuned outside of his Party mode)
