Re: Next Game Idea: characters/variants

@stukapooka We largely agree with a few differences.

Chomper should be looked at as it's a popular character and while not my favorite, I'd like them to work without being annoying or so one-trick focused. Spikeweed is just not great in BfN and grody goop got buffed too much after being not that hot. I would prefer a return to more of a GW2 style with more team focus like they tried to give Chomper in BfN. Some of the guys on Reddit like Krook and Koopa had some really good ideas to make Chomper better, but this was back before BfN existed, so are buried.

I'm indifferent to Hovergoat and Torchwood returning. I wouldn't say no and had variant ideas for them before, but also wouldn't mind if they were removed and replaced with others either. 

I really like Electric Slide's look and idea, but she would need some changes, especially if they bring variants back. I'd say to make the baseline version 'Disco Queen' zombie or something and have electric slide be a variant. Replace the electric tornado with a disco ball attack that floats up and fires lasers (so it would be similar to the tornado but also more general so it would work across all variants), outta fight would need to be changed or at the least get rid of the upgrade that let's you heal while in that mode (and the Rose version too), as it is simply one of the most frustrating things to fight against I've ever seen! Funky bouncer could change too, maybe she summons a backup dancer instead? I really want to keep her, even if she gets a lot of changes.

And yes, I'd prefer a return to GW style combat and movement over BfN, so some reworks are required, although a hybrid of GW and BfN that works is fine by me; some tuning would still be needed.

I'd prefer overheal to go but can deal with it if they keep it, but healing in BfN is too good overall and the XP is too low.

As for abilities, I almost always like the GW/GW2 versions but adjusted versions of the BfN abilities as alternates could give more options, but the GW/GW2 versions would take priority barring Deadbeard and Cactus keeping the new mobility ideas.

Drones feel weird in BfN and are very slow while the parrot's egg-plosion is much better than the garlic drone's airstrike. I'd prefer them to go back to GW2's versions, bring back the alternate ones, and give the engineer the option to use either of the GW1 drones too.

Damage attenuation is an absolute must and should be a core part of the game from alpha onward. Why it wasn't BfN, I'll never understand.

Pots, bots, and the mobile summons all need to be looked at. in GW1, the pots died if you sneezed on them, in BfN, they are kind of ok, but not great, GW2 seemed to get this the best but they need to use all the summons from all 3 games and add more.

Ops really need to be more exciting and not as bugged. Seeing the '!' triangles and nothing spawns there is still happening along with the 'huge wave' being smaller than the next one! I wouldn't mind having the option for shorter ops like others have pointed out, but GW2 Ops are my favorites of the 3.

Engineer in BfN is my least favorite character to play barring the swarm characters (which as I've said elsewhere, need to be removed). I liked him more in GW1 than GW2 thanks to drones over the big bolt blaster, but having those as alternate abilities of each other would be best. The double time pad is often not very useful and most engineers just camp their own turrets and spam all day, really unhappy with the character in BfN.

I'm down with Super Brainz being more like in GW2, but don't hate him in BfN. Just get him to work and don't let Toxic Brainz of that Brainium Basher ruin things.

In GW1 the upgrades mattered but were random and automatic. In GW2 you unlocked them in a particular order but once you got the better ones, you left the lesser ones behind; getting extra damage, faster reload, and so on make a big difference. In BfN, giving them weights so you could make some cool combos is a great idea and even if they largely return to GW for the next game, they should keep this idea but remove/rebalance them as needed. I would also like to not tie in leveling with getting upgrades so new people aren't at a disadvantage.

The health one is interesting as there was a big argument about that on Reddit. I'm indifferent to be honest, and am fine with seeing enemy health or not.

This is one I think we disagree on the most. In GW2 when the enemy team had a lot of healers working together, they could constantly revive each other at full health and it is almost as tedious to play against as stacked Citron shields or healers in BfN. I'd prefer it to stay revive at half health but more teammates helping equals faster revives (and more XP of course). The regen to half health like GW1 is something I liked but it is something I'm not too worried about so if they keep self regen at 100%, I'd not complain.

BfN's communication system is decent, GW2's is the worst as you can only have 2 emotes while GW1 had 4, but further improvements for better tactical communication would be good.

@Iron_Guard8The main problem about bfn's communication is that it sometimes takes too dang long to look for what you want say and let us not forget the cringe and toxic emotes/dead memes.

Gw1 pots were weak but their positioning in maps was ten times better than anythinf they get in bfn ab characters like bonk choy and scaredy shroom were viable. They also had the bamboo shoot.

I remember the back chomp aim rework and hook style ideas which would go a long way for improving chomper as a character.

I dont want the Insta win gw2 spikeweeds back but bfns were just pathetic and i never saw a zombie actually fall for them. They were at their best in gw1 where they were basically tankier but less damaging potato mines that blended in better. I also really miss the hanging animation.

I'd be fine with half revive health if full regen stays as all scientist or sunflower were annoying.

I hope our shots aren't able to go through teamates next game. I'm fine with walking through teamates but give it a little resistance so it isn't instant like in tf2.

The ally markers should stay but replace the blue arrows with the head markers from gw2.

Drone hitboxes feel very off in bfn, I swear I could hit them multiple times hut nothing happened. I also miss the flying on top of them glitch that was very useful.

Engineer should be able to swap abilities and be reverted as the character wasn't fun in bfn and double time was a selfish ability.

Slide definitely needs to stand out more.

Hovergoats kit feels like the best support character we've gotten and I would love to see it expanded.

@stukapooka I'd be down with a simple communication wheel and I've posted elsewhere to remove the more toxic emotes.

GW2 has bamboo shoots too and the zombie equivalent the uplink bot among others. I want them all back and made viable. And agree on pot/bot spawn spots too. 

The idea of needing to aim to chomp someone from behind so you don't accidentally 'suicide chomp' would be great. I don't like Chompers being snipers in BfN, but wouldn't mind them having some kind of ranged attack beyond Yeti Chomper, even if only so you don't feel useless at range.

I prefer GW1 spikeweeds the most as you couldn't lay them right at someone's feet and chomp them like in GW2, plus the extra hanging upside down animation of course! In BfN the only thing I like about spikeweed is being able to launch it, you can destroy it as an afterthought and it's almost never a real threat.

I want a heal/revive system that works and isn't obnoxious so as long as we get that, I'm pretty open to how they fine tune it.

I'd like it to go back to bot being able to move through teammates and not able to shoot through them, but can work with other ideas.

Class icons for friendlies is indeed better than the blue triangles.

Drones are very wonky in BfN; they are slow, move oddly, have odd hit boxes, and other problems. These absolutely need to be better in a new game.

Double time isn't a bad idea, and is decent at some areas; like to speed up bomb carriers at the last point of Loggy Acres, but otherwise not very useful, and should be replaced/reverted.

My main issue with Electric Slide is that funky bouncer doesn't always work well (like a lot of movement abilities and cameras in BfN), and while amazing near cliffs and hazards, it's not all that great anywhere else. Outta fight is basically energy warp from GW/GW2. The tornado isn't awful but again, I'd change that to a summonable disco ball that shoots lasers, make the main character the Disco Queen and Electric Slide would be the electric variant, and I'd improve/change funky bouncer and energy warp. With sprint gone maybe she has temporary speed boost with her rocket skates?

Hovergoat is a great support character and being immune to goatify is satisfying, but it is a goat and not a zombie, even if I still like the character. Maybe move their kit to a new zombie if they don't have it return for the new game.

@Iron_Guard8a simpler communication wheel would be great.

Gw2 bamboo shoot is actually weaker than his gw1 counterpart due to only dealing 8 damage per hit compared to gw1's 15 damage per hit.

Really like how different they made all the bots feel from their counterparts such as rocket dealing the same damage as pea cannon overall but shooting it in three different projectiles or mr freezy using projectiles rather than the instant freese blast of ice shroom.

I feel like the chomp cannon was a very underrated ability in gw2 and having it return to give chomper more ranged options in exchange for less melee effectiveness with the removal of goop for the cannon would be neat if it was availaible from the start as an ability. More unique variants like yeti would also be a good step forward.

Totally in favor of turning slide into a proper disco zombie styled character. Use that for her description in the almanac as well.

Hovergoats kit being moved to a new zombie kinda seems like a waste of a design for a new zombie character, maybe they could give some visual changes to hovergoat to help him stand out more. Would hate to see grave digger become reality only to be saddled with an already created moveset.

Overall im with you in preferring not being able to move through teamates but I've seen some people who like this so maybe it could at least be rougher like the teamate collision in cod zombies or tf2 where it isn't instantaneously happening. Ammo should however never travel through allies.

Drones are just really clunky in bfn and I dont get why. I really miss the days of riding on then to the objective and feel like that should actually just be a feature.

@stukapooka I actually had checked bamboo shoots and saw that damage difference between GW and GW2 on the wiki. At least it was a thing and a personal favorite for some spots like that one spot on the ledge overlooking the internal area on OPs in Lunar Landing. 

A personal favorite of GW2 is how they made the plants able to attack and the zombies able to defend so well. I wasn't sure how they could do it at first, but they did a great job and love how the bots/pots are balanced well overall but are different too.

Chomp Cannon was a fun surprise in GW2 for sure. I loved catching Scientists off guard!

@Iron_Guard8gw1 had a lot of balcony pots that could shoot downhill without much retaliation so they were always good spots, so what the heck happened with them in bfn?

Yeah I really loved the differing designs of the teams.

Superbrainz is mobile and can do a bit of range but he lacks the chompers instakill and ensaring abilities.

Cactus is a defensive sniper and deadbeard is an offensive one.

Corn's shuck shot launches two projectiles that have to connect while the zpg just has 1.

Sunflower is a direct healer that can keep opponents at bay with her attacks while scientist is a close range flanker who heals on the side.

Peashooter and soldier are the all aroind classes who do not play similar in the slightest with peashooter focusing on defense and soldier on offense.

All Star is more of an offensive tank and citron is a better defensive one.

I really liked how gw handled the overall class roles and made sure the counterpart on the opposing team played differently to seperate them and it's something I wish more shooters would do.

Lunchtime in the lab was surprisingly balanced in gw2. It took 2 of the most annoying classes to fight and made them duke it out.

Yeti could fight back against rooftop campers, unicorn could reach them by warp, goop could stop them from warping away, and chomp cannon could one shot them. Scientists also had healing and superior range on their side but due to scientists having to get close to maximize damage put them in chompers ballpark.

It was really fun and its just not the same in bfn with chompers 2 shot slobber rounds and insta warps.