Some thoughts on GW1 & GW2

I'll toss in my thoughts, but in a slightly different format.

What GW1 did right:

• It feels like PvZ. Crazy Dave is defending homes and cities from Zombie invasions. It is a bright and colorful world to play in and makes for a cheery game.
• Coins were valuable. GW1 was created and balanced before the inclusion of micro transactions. This meant that earning coins was worth something because the game was balanced for players to earn things without ever having the ability to buy coins.
• Leveling was reasonable. There were 313 levels total, each level pasted 10 requiring 15 challenges be met or stars used.

What GW1 did wrong:

• Leveling challenges. This doesn't apply to all of them but there are a few that stand out as terrible. Within a match challenges are the worst offenders. Failure to complete these challenges would result in all work being reset. This lead to hyper focusing on a singular task and not the greater game goal. Worse still it made your allies your competition. If I want to destroy All-Star dummies I have to find them before my teammates do. All the while not paying attention to the point but rather searching the battlefield for dummies. There are other frustrating challenges but they escape me right now.
• Abundance of Skip Stars. Speaking of challenges, the plentiful skip stars completely undermined the value of rank. While I'm sure everyone with Unicorn Chomper in GW2 is thankful, it made being 313 a lot less meaningful. Anyone could reach max rank skilled or otherwise, it could be done without completing even a single challenge manually. I fully understand the need for them to exist but, not even close to the quantities they came in.
• Lack of Graveyard Ops. While it could be argued that Herbal Assault was also missing, I wouldn't be upset if it wasn't. However, the fact that Zombies could only be leveled in PvP settings rather than a PvE setting like Ops put them at a sore disadvantage. In fact, for awhile the community was raging over team switchers, who they thought were only after coins. Not true, I was one of those switchers for a very long time. Not because I wanted coins (I had long collected everything) but because it needed to catch up my zombies to the plants who could clear several challenges in a single Garden Ops. Sure Herbal Assault would help balance the coin unbalance in G&G but for challenges sake only Graveyard Ops is required.
• Lack of "Single Player". If there were one thing I would add to a remake of GW1 it would be solo play like what is in GW2. Many Challenges were frustrating due to being in a single match or difficult to do against live players. Consider that plants could do many challenges against AI while zombies didn't get the chance. But,, more importantly, now in the twilight of the game's life it can be hard to find matches for specific game modes or at all. Solo play would eliminate all of that. Graveyard Ops would help with leveling zombies but, Solo Play would solve that and more. Again it would be the one thing that determines if I bought a remake or not. The rest can be worked around.

Things GW2 did right:

• An experience based leveling system. This means that the player is rewarded for playing the game as normal. No more hyper focusing on sub tasks (well, not including the challenge board). It also means that players are rewarded as they play, no stars to artificially speed up the process. While there are faster ways to level, everyone is on the same level. Rank is a testament to the player skill/play time.
• Solo play. Not only can players play alone with AI, they can also alter team formations, crazy settings, difficulty and more. This option allows even the best PvP players a chance to relax and have a bit of fun. It also means that in the future as the game's popularity wanes there is always a way to play the game.
• Weekly events. Unlike Solo which constricts experience and coins with crazy settings players can play match ups customized by Pop Cap. It also grants the bonus of sometimes being able to play variants not yet unlocked. It makes the player feel like part of a team rather than a random group of players. Chomper vs. Scientists, All-Stars vs. Sunflowers, in matches like these you might be a sunflower among sunflowers and you have access to all variants. It also provides several interesting match ups to break up the every day grind.

Things GW2 did wrong;

• Time gates and grinding. RUX and Community Portal stickers are limited to a specific amount each week or month. Infinity Time requires building up coins or stars. Infinity Time takes 15-40 minutes for a sticker and there are 122. There are 5455 levels to get, which even at the fastest is around 10 levels every 15 minutes. Coin inflation is worse now too, so grinding coins is more of a job than a past time. This is GW2's worst quality. I personally blame it on a mobile game mentality which restricts game play in exchange for real money. If I were to buy a remake of GW2 it would require a faster more stable way to earn many of these stickers.
• Coin inflation. Now for some more detail on coins. In GW1 it took 40k to unlock one variant but in GW2 it takes 75k, Infinity Time packs cost 200k and there is millions and millions of coins worth of standard stickers. Unlike GW1 this game had micro transactions built in from the beginning and was balanced to match. This means coins are worth less in order to make real money transactions seem more valuable.
• Variant leveling. Rather than class based leveling there is variant based leveling. This causes two issues. First, to reach max rank players must play as variants they may not like for extended periods of time. Sure, they should try each class but it shouldn't be mandatory. This is another case of work over past time. The second issue is in order to justify separate levels per variant each variant needs a significant number of levels. This leads to 5455 levels in the game, a truly massive undertaking.
• Unicorn Chomper. Its simple giving a select group of people a bonus for an unreasonable task was a bad idea. There are dozens of ways this could have been handled better, but it wasn't.
• Dark worlds. While I am indifferent to the lack of PvZ feeling in GW2, I do get bothered by the overall darker cosmetics. For a game being played for extended periods of time the darker feel gives a more depressing less enjoyable feeling while being played. It took awhile to place this feeling but after playing GW1 again I found it much easier to play for long periods of time without feeling decreasing enjoyment. (Maybe Nintendo is on to something.)

So, for GW3 what should be fixed or improved.

• Class based levels. Like GW1 levels and therefore rank should be class based, not requiring that all variants be played. However, I also think that the challenge board or something similar could offer exp bonuses for certain variants. For example, get 20 vanquishes as Fire Cactus and get a XXX exp bonus for the cactus class. It is encouraged optional experience rather than a mandatory requirement. This also means a more reasonable rank could be created. Instead of 5455 maybe 1400. Keep in mind that doesn't mean the leveling is required to be faster, in exchange for less levels each could require more work.
• Omega sticker pack. RUX, IT, CP, Legendary, Holiday and many others are a pain to collect. I think a great fix would be a single pack that has the entire known sticker pool in it. (And I do mean everything. The only exclusions should be Deluxe edition exclusives and only if it is handled the way GW2 was.) Make it expensive, make it only have a few stickers per pack, whatever, just make it exist. The focus of this pack should be for players who are finishing up their sticker collections, those last few elusive stickers. (It would be wildly wasteful to buy these packs with a near empty stickerbook.) These players put in their dues, possibly tens of millions of coins. Stop punishing players close to completion, give them a way to finish the sticker book. They shouldn't have to wait week after week for 6 stickers, month after month for RUX to bring nothing. Don't get me wrong, I still want certain stickers to be special but waiting an entire year for a few stickers missed at Halloween or from RUX is unreasonable. Again, this pack only becomes beneficial near the very end of collecting stickers.
• Frequent small updates. After the major DLC packs there should be a few small updates every couple months or even sooner. This could be a new chunk of cosmetics (just 10-20 or so). It could be a new map (TT or Ops style). The key here is to just have something. I will add that in the case of cosmetics I think they should be randomly bought one at a time from a shop of some sort. They would stay in that shop until the next update at which point they go into the omega packs. Make them 20k a piece if necessary. Overall, it gives new goal for players who otherwise have everything else. 
• Solo play 2.0. Overall, GW2 solo play leaves little to be desired but, there is a bit. First, an option to customize teams of 12 players. This means class and variant for both teams. If human players choose to switch team they will replace the top AI. So player one would replace AI #1, if there is two players it would take #2 and so on. the last feature should be difficulty setting. This way players can simulate differing levels of player skill. So to recap, in addition to the settings found in GW2, players get a custom option. (think of it as just another option like cosmic brains, imps only, pirates only and so on) Here they can set the class, variant and difficulty or each player on the team. Finally, they can turn custom setup on or off. On makes the AI a clone of the player's variant (Just like Ops in GW2), off is base settings. Overall, I think this gives a nice variety for players of all skill levels to play the game the added customization also gives more realistic control of what a PvP match is like.
• Bring back the cheery levels. This is both from a classic PvZ feel and as a player stand point. Obviously the more like PvZ is feels the more nostalgic the game will be and the more it will appeal to PvZ fans. But, it is also based on the observation I made about the feelings while playing. Dark and moody causes players to feel dark and moody, while cheery makes the game feel more fun and allows for longer play sessions. When work sucks I want to play a fun game to relax not continue sitting in the feelings from work.

Took two hours to put my thoughts together so I may have missed something. But, I have thought about each of these things for awhile. (And a long while for that matter, plenty of time to think while I endlessly grind away in GW2) I'll edit this if I think of anything else.

@Final_Zidane

Thanks for your input. We agree on a lot of things here and I hope Popcap takes all this to heart for the next PvZ shooter. A couple of things I wanted to comment on from your post:

• I get what you mean that the Zombie controlled levels are gloomier than what we are normally used to but I also feel they have intentionally lightened the mood with humor; the disco diner in Zombopolis, the silly zoo in the park area of Zomburbia, and the various signs and funny adverts all over the zombie controlled levels add some levity while the general mood is made more zombie-like. I do agree that the plant controlled levels feel more cheerful overall though. I think more of a mix would be great. I never really found even Zombopolis to be that gloomy thanks to the game’s humor but the plant focused levels are unquestionably brighter and more cheerful.
• There were some challenges in GW1 that simply never worked. The one I’m thinking of off the top of my head was vanquish a certain number of plants after warping as a scientist without being vanquished. Even when I did it far in excess of that requirement (like vanquish 5 and getting a 12 vanquish streak after warping) it never worked. The challenge stars were almost required for ones like that. Also like you pointed out they often led to you playing in a counterproductive manner. I never liked the challenge system in GW1 much.
• It’s been 3 years but I swear GW1 launched with coin packs (at least on PC where the game launched later than consoles). GW2 it feels built in but the packs weren’t available for a couple of months. The sticker packs in GW2 are more expensive for sure; the basic reinforcement pack is 1k in GW1 and 2.5k in GW2 as a quick example. I agree that coins should have more weight. I don’t want to see basic packs cost 60k in the next game.
• I also hit on Rux and the portal grind. I love the portals and Rux is a cool idea but stringing out the content and giving us such limited access to the stickers each week is bothering many people, even as they still play but in ever decreasing numbers. Honestly announcing Frontline Fighters as the last major DLC probably made some people turn away. People are still playing even on the ‘dead’ PC community (which is annoying when people claim this as it’s far from dead but people thinking it is keeps some people from getting into the game) but knowing no new major DLC is coming has put a damper on things.
• The leveling thing I noticed too but as I play every character I didn’t really see this as a problem. I do focus on some more than others of course. I wouldn’t have an issue with a hybrid of leveling any class with any variant based on an xp instead of a challenge system. Hitting max rank wasn’t really onerous though and you get 20k coins every time you rank up a character. Your idea for GW3 is pretty cool. I do the quests from the board every time they are up already so an additional incentive would make them even more attractive to the community as a whole.
• I never really agreed with the Unicorn Chomper limitation. I have it as I maxed my rank in GW1 but my friend had issues with his account and GW1 so he only got max rank via using the unicorn chomper in events. I do like a loyalty bonus in a game series like this but perhaps something else would be better (bonus coins perhaps?)
• A common complaint has been the legendary stickers, especially the characters. I was fine with things being super rare at worst and while I love some of these legendary hats and characters, I also sympathize with people frustrated with their inability to get these stickers. People have other responsibilities and even playing as much as I do, which is quite a lot, it took me a lot of coins and Infinity Time runs to grab these. Perhaps remove legendaries from packs and have them only for sale at Rux or some other store to reduce the RNG in the new game.
• A universal sticker pack would be cool. Even if as you say it’s expensive. Holiday events are especially difficult for those that have to travel to be with family so giving those packs or at least having them available for longer would be a nice change.
• For solo play I’ve noticed that too. With normal mixed teams the AI only uses basic variants. I’d like to either be able to select or randomize the bots in these matches to give more variety and a team that more closely matches PvP. I also would love more story style quests to play and more activities in the backyard. We had some and many are funny (Grumpy Stumpy was a personal favorite), but more would be a great addition to the game.
• I like a mix of updates and giving us large and small ones give us goals to reach and to keep people playing without it being a drag or feeling too grindy. We had a couple small ones but not enough DLC overall. More stuff is good!

Some additional things that I thought about since posting the original post here:

• The potted plants in GW2 are more survivable than in GW1. This is a solid change as I burned through a ludicrous number of potted plants in those 2 ops last night AND I was healing them as a Sunflower! They simply died far too easily in GW1.
• The trials of Gnomus area is a very interesting and great looking area but it’s seriously underutilized. I haven’t been down there since unlocking both characters as I have no reason to; I opened all the chests, beat all the trials, and unlocked the characters so there’s nothing else there. I would love to have a reason to go down there now. I’ve mentioned this before but it’s obvious a lot of work went into this place and it’s a shame that I no longer have a reason to go down there.
• And this one has been mentioned many times and while only a quality of life feature is a huge one; please Popcap, make customizing and selecting characters simpler and faster. Scrolling through so much stuff as a single column is a major pain. Streamline this process in the new game!

Thanks for the kind words. A few of the things you said got me thinking.

---

@ Iron_Guard8 wrote:

• I get what you mean that the Zombie controlled levels are gloomier than what we are normally used to but I also feel they have intentionally lightened the mood with humor; the disco diner in Zombopolis, the silly zoo in the park area of Zomburbia, and the various signs and funny adverts all over the zombie controlled levels add some levity while the general mood is made more zombie-like. I do agree that the plant controlled levels feel more cheerful overall though. I think more of a mix would be great. I never really found even Zombopolis to be that gloomy thanks to the game’s humor but the plant focused levels are unquestionably brighter and more cheerful.

---

The humor helps, don't get me wrong. The problem is, in an active battlefield I'm not likely to be reading or really even taking in the funny sights. All I see is the general atmosphere. Another thing is Zomburbia and Moon Base are technically day, but the zombie lighting gives it an unnatural darkness. Zombopolis I am more forgiving of because it is night so the lighting is more natural. Perhaps I am overly sensitive, or perhaps it has worn on me over the countless hours of leveling and coin collecting. Still, I can't help but point out I never had that problem in GW1.

On a deeper note, I suspect it is a natural reaction to the zombie style. Zombies started in the horror genre, one designed to get reactions based on being uneasy. Even in a cartoony setting the zombie style retains that uneasy origin. So it is very possible it is a reaction to design choices. Again, I could be overly sensitive to settings like this. (In life I am more of a watcher and observer, so I tend to be more engulfed in my environment than others.) If anything a better mix would help the situation, switching between the two should lessen the effects. (Were as now even Great White North and Time Park retain the darker feeling.) Just something for PopCap to think about.

---

@Iron_Guard8 wrote:

• There were some challenges in GW1 that simply never worked. The one I’m thinking of off the top of my head was vanquish a certain number of plants after warping as a scientist without being vanquished. Even when I did it far in excess of that requirement (like vanquish 5 and getting a 12 vanquish streak after warping) it never worked. The challenge stars were almost required for ones like that. Also like you pointed out they often led to you playing in a counterproductive manner. I never liked the challenge system in GW1 much.

---

I knew I was forgetting a bunch. It has been awhile since I really focused on GW1. I also recall vanquishing foes under 20 hp being very obnoxious. I remember doing a lot of frustrating challenges. I will say though, a good majority of the frustration came from the unpredictability of human players. I wouldn't consider under 20 hp frustrating for plants since I had Ops. Plus, I'll bet even warping vanquishes would be more tolerable in a PvE setting. What I am saying is, were GW1 to be rereleased I could tolerate no change to the challenges IF there was an accompanying solo mode. But, don't get me wrong, if a remake made two changes removing the, in a session, under 20hp and without being vanquished challenges would be a close second pick. (A player's work should never be reset when completing a task.) I'm sure there are more but since its been awhile they escape me.

---

@Iron_Guard8 wrote:

• It’s been 3 years but I swear GW1 launched with coin packs (at least on PC where the game launched later than consoles). GW2 it feels built in but the packs weren’t available for a couple of months. The sticker packs in GW2 are more expensive for sure; the basic reinforcement pack is 1k in GW1 and 2.5k in GW2 as a quick example. I agree that coins should have more weight. I don’t want to see basic packs cost 60k in the next game.

---

I think you are right about PC. In fact, I think the announcement and implementation lined up with the PC release. I played on Xbox 360 (Now on PS4) so when I started there were no coin packs. I didn't buy GW2 until this past May so I can't speak on it. However, I have a feeling that even if coins weren't available at launch that the developers always had an intention to add them to GW2. (Opposed to GW1 were if I recall they promised they would not add micro transactions.) That mentality seems to have appeared in the prices for things. (That or artificially dragging out content, either way, not really acceptable.)

---

@Iron_Guard8 wrote:

• The trials of Gnomus area is a very interesting and great looking area but it’s seriously underutilized. I haven’t been down there since unlocking both characters as I have no reason to; I opened all the chests, beat all the trials, and unlocked the characters so there’s nothing else there. I would love to have a reason to go down there now. I’ve mentioned this before but it’s obvious a lot of work went into this place and it’s a shame that I no longer have a reason to go down there.

---

This is something I hadn't thought about but, from a developing prospective it is very important. GW2 seems to have a lot of single functional things. The trials of Gnomus area and each of the trials, Infinity Time, and some quest related places. It is a lot of effort to create such places, effort that could be used for more frequently used things. Don't get me wrong, it is a very nice touch. But, for such a massive area such as the trials area to be used for exactly one thing it feels like a wasted effort. Going forward I think that special areas like these need multiple uses, and to designed so that they can have multiple uses. (Opposed to how things are which leave me feeling like "Why didn't they just put the effort into a new map or two.")

So a big thing I noticed after playing some more GW1 as well as my regular GW2 time:

• A big change from GW1 to GW2 was the coins from the bonus garden (Enchanted in GW2) now give everyone the coins, in GW1 only the person who grabs them gets them. This is a serious positive change I had forgotten all about and I am most appreciative of this one!

time for my stuff:  (heads up, i am sometimes not that deep of a thinker so if you are expecting more, then, tough)

what GW1 did good: 

• the maps had an abandoned feel, and were set in towns which gave it an original PVZ feel
• turret ability, I really like how engineers could build turrets away from the teleport, and also upgrading, 
• size of turf takeover, they were amazing and was always fun to play

What GW2 did good: 

• single player, there were missions on both sides which were fun to do when not playing multiplayer. they were fun, and kinda simple.

what GW1 & 2 did badly:

• (sigh) turf takeover, (for both of them) there was so much that could have been done with this, they could have created some awesome play styles with these maps, I have played Star wars battlefront online, you would know about the game mode supremacy, this was a game mode where there were 5 specific zones on the map, both sides both sides have two already in their control. when the game starts both sides fight for the centre zone and when a team captures a zone the enemy fall back to the next zone which the opponent already owns, I wish this same play style was in a GW game. 
• DLC: this game should be like PVZ 2 (NOT GW2) they are always adding new stuff to it, if this were the same with GW, there would be a heck of a lot more players always, and yes I know PVZ 2 aren't making anymore worlds but they are constantly adding new plants, events, and pinnate parties. (olay 🥳 cha cha cha)

Some interesting points @NerdBunker_Sam,

• I've been curious about why the engineer turrets in GW2 are a single stage construct instead of the original 3 stages form GW1. Maybe to streamline playing an engineer and now rose as well? I liked upgrading the bots and having a spot or 2 near the capture points too, but it's never bugged me in GW2 that we can't. If GW3 brings that back, cool, if not, no harm done really. I do want the engineer drones back as an option in lieu of taking the big bolt blaster though!
• Honestly I like both games' TT maps. In general I like GW1's slightly more but I quite enjoy GW2's as well, especially Moonbase Z and Zombopolis.
• From what I've seen the new game will have a lot of single player content. GW2 had a lot of fun solo stuff to do as well as multiplayer, part of why I overall like GW2 more than GW1.
• I'm a big fan of Turf Takeover but adding a new mode like that; where both sides start with some points and fight over a middle point and then push the other team back was also in TF2. They could add a mode like that with new maps so the starting areas match the team (plants or zombies) and changes occur over the areas as one team takes them over!
• More DLC is a good idea. I play PvZ2 on my phone at least a little every day. The new PvZ shooter needs to have a lot of DLC; new variants, maps, customizations, and other stuff would be awesome.