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benn1nat0r's avatar
benn1nat0r
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago

Wizard as a concept is stupid, just like SB and BB (Zombie Superiority)

Honestly, I've been feeling the need to post about this for a long time, even if people might disagree.

Wizard as a concept is stupid, just like Steam Blaster and Gameium Crasher.

People always argue that the plants aren't weaker, because they have Snapdragon, Peashooter and Sunflower.

This simply misses the point.

The zombies also have strong characters (moe so than the plants), with the most important difference being versatility.

People hate on Peashooter, because he has a strong primary and good, versatile abilities. He has a bomb with good range and can pogo-pea.

But: Nearly all zombie have much greater versatility with options the plants don't even have.

And don't forget Soldier when talking about Peashooter and / or Corn. Soldier has a rapid fire upgrade. Why? ZPG has a way too big hitbox and deals 50 splash damage, just in case the already massive hit box of the projectile fails you. Stink cloud cancels many abilities. I know Peashooter can be better than Soldier in many ways, but Soldier can still melt through most plants in seconds. Corn has to use butter beacon to be acceptable in damage output.

Wizard can add a lot of firepower to any zombie, even bosses!He can board fully loaded space stations. He can gain abilities like warp by boarding a Scientist. There is no such crazy powerful combo for plants with so much versatility. He can counter every plant ability for not just himself, but large groups of zombies using his Elixir. And then there is Spell-Disaster, well, the literal disaster. 6 homing over 9000 orbs that deal 80 damage each.He has a crazy precise, high damage primary.

Steam Blaster adds a tonne of damage to a character that has 3 warps, self heal, as well as the ability to heal large groups. Need I say more? People like to argue that he (now) is balanced, considering the low ammo and long reload time, but that simply isn't the case. The versatility alone makes him crazy powerful. There isn't a plant equivalent, like with every other thing I'm mentioning here. He can melt multiple plants by suing his primary twice and then warp away to heal himself and reload in peace. You will never encounter the "downsides" that are supposed to balance him.

Gameium Crasher, umm Brainless Smahser, ah I mean Brainium Basher. I don't think I need to say much, everyone knows by now. And even in this case half of the community was arguing he is balanced by saying stuff like "high risk high reward". No. Just no.

Engineer. Even if he will be nerfed in todays patch (which we don't know that he will), it took them the game's entire lifetime to fix. He can camp using turret. His turret gives every zombie in range a huge boost, making them never have to reload and having a crazy dps. Once he is hit he can fly across the map, never giving you a chance to hit him once. And no, I'm not talking about Brainium basher. He has his weird boost pad and crazy good jump height. He can cover absurd distances in seconds. Now add all of his speed upgrades like hard target to the equation. And we haven't even considered his mega op primary that can cover half of the map and has way too good damage.

Citron: Evyone cries Citron is op. While I agree, remember there are zombies that can do the exact sam thing (except the shield), but better. Engineer can stun people for too long and cancel Burrow, as well as other abilities, making him win every 1v1 or even 1v2. Citron Dash has an annoyingly long start animation, while All Star can do it a bit quicker and has Imp Punt that can insta kill low health classes.

The Oak and Acorn combo remains way too bad compared to Space Station. Space station can grill the entire plant team with Cratermaker upgrades. I cover this in detail in this thread: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Space-Station-is-way-better-than-Oak-Zombie-superiority-remains/m-p/9443478#M25958

Nightcap was nerfed into the ground update after update without a reason

While Pirate and Cactus are very similar, the Parrot is way better than the garlic drone.

Rose and Electric Slide: The self heal capabilities of Rose were nerfed into the ground because of community feedback after like 2 months, but Electric slide remains op to this date. Outta Fight! reloads way too quickly, makes her completely invincible and make her completely regenerate using Defibrillated. Her primary was buffed to be too strong, is ultra precise and can hit multiple target, as well as stunning them.

Super Brainz can insta kill multiple plants using Jump+Twister combo, but people still complain about CHomper. Burrow is a suicide ability and Goop had to be buffed, because SB's abilities are better. I know many disagree with this point, but I have talked about this in detail in other threads and don't want to write it again.

Scientist is just better than sunflower in most ways. I have also compared Sunflower and Scientist in detail before, so I'll skip it here. 

10 Replies

  • Another point: People complain about Acorns overheating Oak everywhere. Well, how useful is a healing ability when you are already dead? Most planst have more defensive abilities compared to the zombies. Space Station can deal so much damage that Oak is already dead before Lumber support can do anything. Most zombie abilities can vanquish your Acorns or oak in 1 second, so Lumber support isn't useful in most cases, except when the. zombie team doesn't use abilities on Oak.

    The zombies have so many abilities that are great for capturing points. Brainium basher, Engineer (Turret,..), Electric Slide (Tornado + regen Outta Fight), z-Mech, Wizard, Scientist being able to heal an unlimited amount of zombies at once.

    Once there a couple of these classes I just mentioned in the opposing team, you are doomed. No matter how many high ranks,Peashooters, glued together Sunflowers, Snapdragons or Chompers your team has. Strategy doesn't even matter. So far 7/8 of the new weekly subordination events I played were won by the zombie team. Even if the plant team had 6 high ranks that very very good and the zombie team just one, the zombies always won, because of the classes I mentioned. And I'm not being salty because I lost, I also was on the zombie team a lot.

    If most game modes are focused on capturing points, the zombies shouldn't have way more abilities that are great for point camping. People than argue they are balanced because of stuff like "high risk high reward". That doesn't matter though. Once there is more than 1 of those zombie types, they are unstoppable. They deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time, completely disabling the plant team, so they never end up in a risky situation.

  • benn1nat0r's avatar
    benn1nat0r
    Seasoned Ace
    5 years ago
    @Gormey I wrote 6 homing over 9000 orbs. I thought I had formulated it well enough, but thank you for pointing it out.
    I just wanted to express how much I hate those orbs. Have you seen what they’ll do to get you? They can vertically warp upwards and even go around corners.
  • @benn1nat0r A good amount zombies have been ridiculously strong with the way they've been designed and buffed over time but we have to look at were it started, founders: A lot of the returning classes got the short end of the stick and the game launched in a really bad state, corn and soldier went from powerful all around classes that are good for beginners and veterans alike to being the worst classes on day 1 and even with multiple updates corn remained worse than soldier in almost every way and they even tried fixing this by giving corn shotgun guard (the first legendary in game) which is in many ways worse than stock corn in many ways and is the worst of the 4 legendary upgrades while soldier got his op upgrades like rapid fire and co.

    Snapdragon was pathetic with his damage, couldnt even kill with fire, and some of his abilities even heal the enemy (bfn just came out but all of these issues make it feel like an alpha).

    All star had pathetic damage and hit detection on his abilities with his shield being so easily broken it makes a non main character green lantern shield look strong and then they buffed him to ridicoulosness which easily could have been fixed with fall off (then popcap was revealed to have lied about drop off).

    One punch man, err I mean superbrainz was stupidly op with just his charge but everything else had terrible hit detection and once again his shield must have been made out of paper mache due to the fact that even when he had it out he still took damage (up close and impersonal ptsd intensifies).

    Scientist got buffed more and more overtime but his strengths from previous games were carried over but none of his weaknesses and once again popcap cant decide if he's a healer or a dps class.



    Oak was a problem but people only nerfed him and not station who at this time could delete BOSSES in a single use and a 4 cadet station is infinetly better than a 4 person oak due to shiled being ridcoulos.

    Imp (my boy what did they do to you) had pathetic damage with his gravity grenade being smaller and weaker with plants easily escaping it now, impkata now has to wind up to higher damage and slowing down just meant death, z mech had pathetic primary damage and was a huge target with the bugs making imp invincible when calling (which took them months to fix btw) alongside not dying when the mech went down but rather thsn increase his damage they only increased his fire rate which didnt help him at all.

    Wizard is able to save himself and his allies from fatal injuries and could give then wall hacks if they looked the same way.

    Engineer is just disgustimg because he can kill people without even seeing them, a turret to gain ammo and lock areas down, easy escape device which he can move at anytime and has no real hard counters.

    Nightcap was too strong because every other character was pathetically weak in founders (someone made a good point on how she easily would have fit in gw2 with her ttk) and fung fu sucked in enemies and moved ridiculously fast.

    The legendary upgrades are just better for zombies nuff said.

    All founders and the changes prove was that this game should have been delayed by almost 2 years, I dont know whether it was popcap or EA but I'm dissapointed.
  • Look @benn1nat0r I know how disparate the power between plants and zombies may seem, but in a way I think that zombies are not superior, it’s quite complicated to evaluate this, but come on.

    I think the teams are balanced, Citron, peashooter, acorn, snapdragon are very good, at the same level as certain things of the zombies, and about the change in the nightcap I as a main nightcap particularly liked it, but that is just my silly opinion.

    thanks for sharing your opinion.
  • benn1nat0r's avatar
    benn1nat0r
    Seasoned Ace
    5 years ago

    @stukapooka Thank you for the very detailed reply, I agree with a lot of it!

    Many of the original characters were underwhelming compared to the new ones. When I complainded about Nightcap and Oak nerfs I wasn't really referring to Founder's Edition. They needed to be nerfed, but I still see many people complaining about them. I'll reply to some of your points in the order your mentioned them:

    • Yes, Corn remained worse than Soldier in many, many ways. His legendary upgrade is one of the worst. It seems like the team always thought powerful plant characters needed downsides to them, but completely ignored that for most zombies. They, at one point, tested a legendary upgrade for Imp that would have given him the rockets from Rocket Ride as his primary! All with his high rate of fire! I mean, like, seriously ?!
    • Snapdragon was terrible in Founder's, but now is very powerful. They seem to either go way overboard or not do nearly enough when balancing characters.
    • I don't think Imp is as bad as everyone says. He needed to be nerfed. I agree with you that he was nerved in the wrong ways. If another PvZ shooter were to be made, they shouldn't include him. I know it sound radical, but he has always been a balancing mess. Either way too strong or way too weak. Always. And they always switched between the two after complaints. Imp and z-Mech are especially weird, considering we have proper team-play classes now that can transform into bigger versions.
    • Yes, Engineer is the disgusting. It is really sad that during the whole game's life time, he wasn't nerfed properly once.

    @gametrieuk As I said, there are some powerful plants. There should also be powerful zombies, that's not the problem. The main problem I wanted to highlight is that powerful zombies can be stacked, while plants can't. The zombies have so much versatility and power at the same time, without any downsides. If a plant team works well together, they still can't beat a cooperatively playing zombie team. Wizard adds firepower to already way too strong characters and can gain abilities like warp through his host. Scientist can heal and entire team at once and quickly warp around. Brainium Basher is god-like.Engineer's turret also doesn't have a plant counterpart. If you combine of all this into one team-playing zombie team, they are unstoppable, no matter how many Peashooters or Snapdragons you have in your team.

  • TheSprinter85's avatar
    TheSprinter85
    Hero
    5 years ago

    I can agree with this, except that when I play Zombies, Snapdragons, Peashooters and Citrons are mostly really annoying and can be difficult to vanquish. But, I can see where you are coming from (that said, I’m not good with Brainium Basher, but I am very decent with Steam Blaster).

  • BB9001 is the most fun I've had in this game yet gives me the worst feelings. I feel like OP characters are meant to be fun, they just resorted it to zombies.
  • Honestly. As a wizard main. I like him. Buuut admitively i can see some issues with him


    1. The homing on spell disaster is just too good. I get it having good homing since you need to be in someones face in order to use it. But in what world should it be doing 180s to hit people.

    2. This is more of a issue with no falloff. But i'll admit him dealing 18-20 damage on a percise as hell weapon is a bit ridiculous. 

    As for overall. It kinda feels like plants are more crammed into a role. Sunflower is healing and nothing much else. Where as scientist can heal and attack with both. While the zombies feel more versitile. Kinda like the gw2 characters where while there were sorta roles. Everyone could kill and what not. 

    It's weird how they decided to balance the two sides

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @benn1nat0r I thought Imp was ok in gw2 just thought he was overused by the playerbase (I'm looking at you three shrimps in boss hunt) and sadly as youve said his role has been stolen from him by others (plus he can just be one shotted by snipers), but that legendary upgrade sounds like a more powerful version of pylon imp.

    80s is meant to be a high skill high reward type of class but he's not really that difficult to just flick shots off with then delete an opponent if his missiles actually work. Hes practically an easier deadbeard with more survivability.

    Don't even get me started on what chomper has become over the buffs and nerfs.

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