@Vace234 wrote:
@AuntySocialQueenYou make fairs points but im going to commit blasphemy and say Lucas himself is not this great writer many fans make him out to be. The prequels have shown when left to his own devices Lucas can't write a whole film by himself. But I am going to go even further to say the OG movies are just as average as well.
They are simple plots that Lucas himself admits were aimed at young kids. They are simple stories that aren't complex, deep, or even thought provoking. My point is fans make Star Wars out to be more than what it really is and that is a series of movies aimed at families about space wizards with beam swords. It should never be taken seriously as some hardcore fans try take it.
Also lets not put all the blame of racism and homophobia on Disney. I recall many fans who went full on racist over Finn and that Asian actress to the point of attacking the real life actors. As if star wars was suppose to exclusively cater only to white people despite the fact the series was always diverse. But I guess to some fans you have a quota to how many minorities can be in star wars and none them can play the lead role.
But let's face it. Stars Wars was George's greatest invention and his greatest curse. You have fans who harassed the man for years simply because they hated the prequals, they harassed the kid who played anakin, and they did the same thing to the actors of the sequel trilogy.
Star Wars is a universe that fans have turned toxic. It was suppose to be family fun movies that EVERYONE could enjoy but fans who worship these movies as the greatest masterpiece of all time, despite the fact Lucas admitted it's a series for kids have pretty much ruined Star Wars.
It wouldn't matter who had the star wars license, because toxic fans would still complain that it's not "their star wars".
I'm not defending Disney, but I also won't ignore the toxicity of the fans who have threatened, harassed anyone and everyone who was even sightly involved with Star Wars over the decades.
Stop taking this franchise so seriously. It was never meant to be anything more than a child's fantasy.
I think George Lucas' strengths are mainly conceptual and overarching plots, and less individual plot points and dialogue. I wouldn't necessarily say he was a master storyteller or even a master worldbuilder, but many of his ideas and concepts are great imo.
And yes, you're right about the toxic fans, completely. It's so rare/difficult to even have a semi-decent conversation with someone that shows the same interest in Star Wars that I do :P
@DarthLando19 wrote:
The PT used to get hated on quite a bit, however now I see the vast majority of people talk about them in a flattering light. In fact, every online poll asking users what their favorite SW movie is has RotS in the lead by a wide margin. They’ve aged well.
Unlike the ST, which will forever be immortalized as a dumpster-fire of a trilogy, & rightfully so.
While I think it's very possible for things to 'age well' and for people to appreciate things more over time than they did originally, I think a contributing factor is the children who grew up watching the prequel trilogy are now older and kinda represent the current majority of the most vocal fans online. That's my personal experience anyhow 🙂
Though I think its impossible to say how people in the future will view some movies when it's been less than a year after the final one has released, just my opinion :P
@J_Triangler wrote:
@GeneralXIV wrote:
And yes, the lesbian kiss felt a little like a consolation prize - I say that as a lesbian :P It would have been great to see Poe and Finn together on screen, just as it would have been nice to see Elsa with a girlfriend in Frozen II. Disney keep having opportunities to include gay characters in a way which would be so good but they aren't using them and it's frustrating :P
Or they could try to make a film without overt virtue signalling, and people could stop making people just because they’re not obviously straight, when there’s no reason to bring their sexuality into it at all.
Everyone was celebrating at the end of TROS but in the whole group, there was only one kiss, and it was between two women? That’s not writing a good scene. A good scene would have had lots of people kissing (though not all at once - that would be weird). Having only one kiss is them saying “look at us - we’re progressive so we put lesbians in”.
Same goes for Poe and Finn - no reason to think they’re gay, and no reason to make them gay, or straight, or anything. Their sexualities, whatever they are, are irrelevant. Why can’t they just be friends? Sex doesn’t have to come into it. Both have interactions with women that could hint at interest in women too, but that’s still a case of “who cares?”
So, first point: sexual orientation is a character trait, like any other really, and are one of the more basic aspects of a character. While I personally don't like characters who are created specifically to solely personify a particular trait (leading to tokenism and/or one-dimensional characters), characters do need to display their traits, even background and supporting characters. A heroic character needs to be heroic, a shy character needs to be shown to be shy and a gay character needs to be gay. The reason why people care about including diverse characters is generally because characters with particular traits have been excluded completely, treated differently or portrayed poorly and therefore people who share those traits care more about their representation (though the same idea would apply to people irl too and that would make people care, but eh, Im talking about characters atm). Just because there's "no reason" for a character to display their traits doesn't mean they shouldn't, that can also lead to one-dimensional characters imo, and kinda defeats the point. Including a character with a trait only not to show it is no different than excluding a character with that trait.
I'm not defending TRoS with this, as I said in my comment before it definitely felt like a consolation prize to see a background/supporting character kiss someone of the same sex rather than having a pair of same-sex main characters in a romance, in many ways it was better than outright exclusion of LGBT characters... though it was more of a tiny baby step forward than a full stride. But I definitely believe the scene was included to try to appease people who were hoping Finn and Poe would start a relationship without the need to have a gay main character because Disney.
If Finn and Poe started a relationship in TRoS, or even kissed, their sexual orientation would have mattered to the direction of the movie because it would be a romantic subplot where that trait is definitely one of the more important driving forces behind a relationship, in the same way it mattered in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi that Han and Leia were attracted to one another. Did it matter in the TRoS that was released? No, but that's... kinda the point. It could have been something the movie featured (and would have been a natural progression for the relationship between the characters. Poe would have been one of, if not the first good person Finn had met, Finn helped Poe escape the First Order. Finn thought Poe was dead, and was relieved when he found out otherwise. They worked together in The Last Jedi and TRoS as friends and later became the leaders of the Resistance together. Starting a relationship would have been a nice progression imo, and would have given Finn an actual subplot in the movie rather than calling to Rey and failing to tell her he's force sensitive like in TRoS. It would have given him a role and an arc which would have been better than in the movie that was released). "Why can't they just be friends?" - Why can't they be more? Even after TRoS, there's nothing to indicate the characters wouldn't be open to a relationship with each other. You don't need a "reason" to make a character gay, I personally choose my characters sexual orientations based on what "feels" right for them as I'm creating them, and there have been times where in the process of writing a story, Ive felt that two characters would be a good fit together and taken their arcs in that direction even though I didn't originally plan it to happen (though thats based on compatibility ofc).
I also really need to ask: Why would the number of people kissing in a scene make it better or worse? Like... really?
