GAC Matchup Discrepency

"DarjeloSalas;c-1998068" wrote:

"BeralCator;c-1998022" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997944" wrote:

"BeralCator;c-1997899" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997881" wrote:

"BeralCator;c-1997872" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Without entirely blowing up the current GP calculation (which is somewhat impractical as other game modes are based on it)?

You could add an aging algorithm to each character that devalues their GP by an exponential amount for every quarter since their kit was last touched. The function could largely filter out launch toons like CUP, Ugnaught, Tuskens, etc. while preserving most of the value of anything after the introduction of zetas. I think we'd all agree that new characters have more utility and synergy, and that the adjusted health and protection and G13 finisher stats for older characters didn't really alter the landscape much.

There are only a handful of untouched kits that still play OK: Clone Sergeant, Ewok Elder, First Order Officer, Snowtrooper, and Resistance Trooper. They are already low GP anyway because they have only 3 abilities and generally don't show up in people's top X.

When was Thrawn’s kit last touched? Nest? They’re pretty good and are exactly the same as they were when released.

An adaptive matchmaking algorithm would be incredible, but let’s be honest with ourselves: there is absolutely no way the devs are up to the task of implementing and maintaining such a system effectively.

Thrawn was 6/13/2017, and Nest was 6/1/2018. Zetas were introduced near the end of 2016. I'm thinking of a curve where anything from 1/1/2017 forward is >75% value and approaching 100% as you move towards today, and anything before 1/1/2017 is approaching 50% or less as you get to the start date of the game.

There are obviously outliers like Nest and Thrawn, but I was trying to quickly suggest something that could be a single equation and would not yield nonsense results. There's never going to be a perfect system, but it's depressing that many of us can come up with a superior solution in under 20 minutes.

Another issue with your proposal is that the introduction of a new toon can often make an older, untouched toon suddenly become much more valuable. Think of the impact Rangetrooper has on an IT team.

Another, more niche, example is that some people are getting mileage out of Clone Wars Chewy with Vandor Chewy, as his lead has a good chance to buff Vandor without him doing anything, making it very hard for him to not be Prepared.

I know you came up with it quickly, and I appreciate that someone chiming in with these “what ifs” must be annoying, but I’m not convinced we can categorically state that this is a superior solution to GP alone just yet.

Also, I’ve not seen much, if any evidence, of “so many of us” coming up with any solution at all, never mind a superior one.

Look, our current system states that a G8 Bodhi Rook has half the value of a G12 zzzRevan. I'd argue that virtually any idea is a superior one at that point.

But the current matchmaking only counts the top “x” toons. If anyone who has g8 Bodhi in their top “x” toons and is facing someone with a g12zzz revan, then I’d like to see that.

OK, a better example is that a G12 Mace Windu is 66% the value of G12.5 zzzRevan. He's a launch character with an untouched kit that many people have in their top 80 because he's a fleet commander.

People could conceivably have characters like Biggs, Teebo, Poe, etc. in their top 80 too.

"DarjeloSalas;c-1998306" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP). As i mentioned GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies therefore it isn't an accurate measure of a player's true roster strength. How is that so hard to understand?

@dimi4a it’s hard to understand because it isn’t true.

When fully maxed:
DR=35308
Malak=32328
BSF=30916
HK=33112
ST=26367
Total=158031

Chirpa=29347
Elder=26367
Logray=29347
Paploo=29347
Wicket=29347
Total=143755

That’s a pretty sizeable difference if you ask me.

However the difference in the abilities and the team synergies is way more sizeable than the GP!

"Waqui;c-1998081" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP).

So, one invested resources in a mediocre team, while the other invested in one of the top teams. Why shouldn't the player, who invested in the stronger team have an advantage? Why shouldn't it matter, how you build your roster? Why should the player, who invested in the weaker team, have the same chance at winning a GA?

And why shouldn't the matchmaking put you up against a player who invested in the similar teams?

"dimi4a;c-1998629" wrote:

"Waqui;c-1998081" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP).

So, one invested resources in a mediocre team, while the other invested in one of the top teams. Why shouldn't the player, who invested in the stronger team have an advantage? Why shouldn't it matter, how you build your roster? Why should the player, who invested in the weaker team, have the same chance at winning a GA?

And why shouldn't the matchmaking put you up against a player who invested in the similar teams?

Why should it put you up against someone that invested in the same teams?

You are supposed to fight players with similar level of investment but who might have made different choices, not a mirror of your roster.

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP). As i mentioned GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies therefore it isn't an accurate measure of a player's true roster strength. How is that so hard to understand?

So you think a maxed out DR/malak team should be worth more than a maxed out ewok team?

I have good news for you, a maxed out DR/Malak team comes in at 150062 GP.
A maxed out ewok team comes in at 119848 GP.

In other words, they do not have similar GP if they are G13 (or in my example G13/r7). If the GP is similar, that DR/Malak team is G11 or G10. No the DR/Malak might still beat the ewok team if those teams go head to head, but that is part of the strategy - figuring out what team comps to use against the posted defenses. (Eg, you don't send CLS/Han/Chewie - a very strong team) against JKR.

"DarjeloSalas;c-1999054" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1998622" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1998306" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP). As i mentioned GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies therefore it isn't an accurate measure of a player's true roster strength. How is that so hard to understand?

@dimi4a it’s hard to understand because it isn’t true.

When fully maxed:
DR=35308
Malak=32328
BSF=30916
HK=33112
ST=26367
Total=158031

Chirpa=29347
Elder=26367
Logray=29347
Paploo=29347
Wicket=29347
Total=143755

That’s a pretty sizeable difference if you ask me.

However the difference in the abilities and the team synergies is way more sizeable than the GP!

Regardless, you comparing the GP / effectiveness of those 2 squads is meaningless.

Matchmaking is based on the GP of the top 80 toons (for div1/2), not 5 toons. If one player has the JKR squad as part of their top 80 and the other does not but they are still close on top 80 GP, they must have some other handy squads similar to JKR geared up.

It sounds as though you want to be matched with people who have near-identical rosters to you. That would get boring VERY fast @dimi4a

Boring? It would be as close to balanced and fair as it can be. Going up against a player with 900k advantage because of flawed matchmaking isn't exactly fair.

"RandomSithLord;c-1999059" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1998629" wrote:

"Waqui;c-1998081" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP).

So, one invested resources in a mediocre team, while the other invested in one of the top teams. Why shouldn't the player, who invested in the stronger team have an advantage? Why shouldn't it matter, how you build your roster? Why should the player, who invested in the weaker team, have the same chance at winning a GA?

And why shouldn't the matchmaking put you up against a player who invested in the similar teams?

Why should it put you up against someone that invested in the same teams?

You are supposed to fight players with similar level of investment but who might have made different choices, not a mirror of your roster.

Because that's what balanced matchmaking is! Or you mean to tell me that facing a player that has 400-500K+ and above GP advantage is fair?

"littleMAC77;c-1999130" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1998629" wrote:

"Waqui;c-1998081" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997868" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997859" wrote:

"DarjeloSalas;c-1997846" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997839" wrote:

"Fanatic;c-1997806" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997792" wrote:

"Legend91;c-1997790" wrote:
The final round is where the (mostly) successful people are matched against each other so it's harder to win there.
And I also thought we've passed the "oh my god my opponent has xxxk more GP" time. GP is meaningless.

Well tell that to the Devs!

It's meaningless in terms of whether player A can beat player B. And it's meaningless in terms of the total GP differences players always point out, because GAC isn't based on total GP, it is based on top X toons in a players roster.

For the devs they need SOME number by which to calculate who is 'equivalent' to rank together. That is what GP is. Personally I'd like to see them move to a ladder ranking like most games use that is based on win/loss ratios (and which bracket you are in). But they do need to use a number. They chose GP. They could have chosen total zeta's applied, or total g12 characters, or any other arbitrary number. None of those would be meaningfully better than the current top X GP. They could try and weight different characters differently, but that is also a rather arbitrary assignment with which the player base (as a whole) would not agree with - and those character weights would need to be re-evaluated with every new character release and how they interact with existing toons.

But it's meaningless as in not a balanced and fair way to pit players against each other. GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies.

And what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ask the "big brains" behind the game, not me!

So you dismiss the current metric for matchmaking but can’t suggest something better?

Can you tell me why GP is a bad way to pit players against one another, at least?

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP).

So, one invested resources in a mediocre team, while the other invested in one of the top teams. Why shouldn't the player, who invested in the stronger team have an advantage? Why shouldn't it matter, how you build your roster? Why should the player, who invested in the weaker team, have the same chance at winning a GA?

And why shouldn't the matchmaking put you up against a player who invested in the similar teams?

Because the choices you make when deciding who to invest resources in should matter in a competitive game mode. One should not be exempt from beating the new meta team just because they don't have it, that would defeat the point of getting a new team.

That just makes the game dull, boring and doesn't leave players with much choice! Out of so many characters to choose from, players will invest mostly in the top tier ones (about a third of all) as they are the most effective at defense/offense because of how the model of this game is set.

"Fanatic;c-1999174" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1997924" wrote:

Because it's one thing facing a G13 Ewok team and something else facing a G13 Darth Revan/Malak team (with both teams having a similar GP). As i mentioned GP doesn't take into account character abilities and synergies therefore it isn't an accurate measure of a player's true roster strength. How is that so hard to understand?

So you think a maxed out DR/malak team should be worth more than a maxed out ewok team?

I have good news for you, a maxed out DR/Malak team comes in at 150062 GP.
A maxed out ewok team comes in at 119848 GP.

In other words, they do not have similar GP if they are G13 (or in my example G13/r7). If the GP is similar, that DR/Malak team is G11 or G10. No the DR/Malak might still beat the ewok team if those teams go head to head, but that is part of the strategy - figuring out what team comps to use against the posted defenses. (Eg, you don't send CLS/Han/Chewie - a very strong team) against JKR.

Well with the current power creep try to figure out how to beat a G13 7* GAS team for example! Because from what i've seen so far on YouTube strategy won't help you much against that team!

"Fanatic;c-1999216" wrote:

"dimi4a;c-1999199" wrote:

That just makes the game dull, boring and doesn't leave players with much choice! Out of so many characters to choose from, players will invest mostly in the top tier ones (about a third of all) as they are the most effective at defense/offense because of how the model of this game is set.

Wait, I thought you said you wanted to face opponents with rosters similar to yours?

"dimi4a;c-1999199" wrote:

It would be as close to balanced and fair as it can be

Wouldn't players all picking the same (top 1/3) of toons result in players with similar rosters, thus creating your ideal 'balanced and fair' effect?

1) I want to face teams with similar power levels as mine (sadly that ''power" doesn't include how abilities and synergies work and most of the time it's what makes all the difference);

2) That's the thing with the current matchmaking system - sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't as this variable comes from the fact that different players choose to farm different characters/teams that aren't necessarily top tier;