Grand Arena Hitting Last an Advantage?

"Stokat;c-1956887" wrote:

"Nauros;c-1956875" wrote:

"UltimateZeus;c-1956873" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956867" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956855" wrote:
And it's huge advantage when you know opponent's banners, so you can either use undersized squads for extra banners or full squads for guaranteed win.
If banners (and maybe even squads defeated) are hidden - noone has advantage or disadvantage, fair deal for me.

Please explain how knowing you need to use an undersized team, makes winning the match easier??

It doesn't but if you are 45 score behind (excluding territory victory points) and you have 1 battle left... you know you can just send in 5 toons and clear it up instead of sending in an undersized squad to take a gamble to get a higher score.

This is just common sense.

Also, if you are 60 points behind, you know you have to take the risk and go undersized even if you wouldn't otherwise.

Exactly. I I don’t understand after being spelled out so many times why ppl still don’t grasp this basic concept. It’s not rocket science, just common sense.

The concept of that is not hard to understand, the problem is that this game mode is not won by knowing a team can be 4 or 5. Nothing about attacking first or second makes playing the game easier. A percieved advantage because a player who is unsure of their own skills doesnt mean they can win the battles they need to because they feel better about it, it also doesnt mean they would lose if they didnt know how to feel about it.

The same attack strategy can be used both first or second and score the maximum points that a player can reach based on their roster, opponent and skill.

"Kyno;c-1956894" wrote:

"Stokat;c-1956887" wrote:

"Nauros;c-1956875" wrote:

"UltimateZeus;c-1956873" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956867" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956855" wrote:
And it's huge advantage when you know opponent's banners, so you can either use undersized squads for extra banners or full squads for guaranteed win.
If banners (and maybe even squads defeated) are hidden - noone has advantage or disadvantage, fair deal for me.

Please explain how knowing you need to use an undersized team, makes winning the match easier??

It doesn't but if you are 45 score behind (excluding territory victory points) and you have 1 battle left... you know you can just send in 5 toons and clear it up instead of sending in an undersized squad to take a gamble to get a higher score.

This is just common sense.

Also, if you are 60 points behind, you know you have to take the risk and go undersized even if you wouldn't otherwise.

Exactly. I I don’t understand after being spelled out so many times why ppl still don’t grasp this basic concept. It’s not rocket science, just common sense.

The concept of that is not hard to understand, the problem is that this game mode is not won by knowing a team can be 4 or 5. Nothing about attacking first or second makes playing the game easier. A percieved advantage because a player who is unsure of their own skills doesnt mean they can win the battles they need to because they feel better about it, it also doesnt mean they would lose if they didnt know how to feel about it.

The same attack strategy can be used both first or second and score the maximum points that a player can reach based on their roster, opponent and skill.

"...this game mode is not won by knowing a team can be 4 or 5..." is not true, well whole paragraph is not true

"Kyno;c-1956894" wrote:

"Stokat;c-1956887" wrote:

"Nauros;c-1956875" wrote:

"UltimateZeus;c-1956873" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956867" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956855" wrote:
And it's huge advantage when you know opponent's banners, so you can either use undersized squads for extra banners or full squads for guaranteed win.
If banners (and maybe even squads defeated) are hidden - noone has advantage or disadvantage, fair deal for me.

Please explain how knowing you need to use an undersized team, makes winning the match easier??

It doesn't but if you are 45 score behind (excluding territory victory points) and you have 1 battle left... you know you can just send in 5 toons and clear it up instead of sending in an undersized squad to take a gamble to get a higher score.

This is just common sense.

Also, if you are 60 points behind, you know you have to take the risk and go undersized even if you wouldn't otherwise.

Exactly. I I don’t understand after being spelled out so many times why ppl still don’t grasp this basic concept. It’s not rocket science, just common sense.

The concept of that is not hard to understand, the problem is that this game mode is not won by knowing a team can be 4 or 5. Nothing about attacking first or second makes playing the game easier. A percieved advantage because a player who is unsure of their own skills doesnt mean they can win the battles they need to because they feel better about it, it also doesnt mean they would lose if they didnt know how to feel about it.

The same attack strategy can be used both first or second and score the maximum points that a player can reach based on their roster, opponent and skill.

Skills? I don’t think people are unsure of their skills... more unsure about how RNG is going to mess them up. Using 5 toons instead of 4 decreases the RNG mishaps.

"Nauros;c-1956925" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956923" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956896" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956867" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956855" wrote:
And it's huge advantage when you know opponent's banners, so you can either use undersized squads for extra banners or full squads for guaranteed win.
If banners (and maybe even squads defeated) are hidden - noone has advantage or disadvantage, fair deal for me.

Please explain how knowing you need to use an undersized team, makes winning the match easier??

Well, you know you NEED those banners and use undersized squad even if it's risky. Or use full squad just to win a battle 100%.
For example - CLS-Han-Chewie-c3p0 quartet can win most battles on their own, but r2d2 is nice addition which can ensure you don't screw up unexpectedly.

That doesnt mean you will win with 4 just because you know you need to go in with it. The battle is no easier, and it doesnt mean you couldnt have gone in with 4 and attacked first to have the same outcome.

Would you rather attempt a fight with 5 characters for a sure win or go in with 4 when you know there's some risk of losing? And what would you do if you knew that you need 61 banners? That's the whole point, the information is an advantage, although arguably not a big one.

It is arguably an advantage, but the secret that all those who attack first and win dont want you to know, is that you can properly strategize and win and attack whenever you want. Ssh, it's a secret.

I agree that it will make people feel better about making hard choices, but the battle is just as difficult and the decision could have been made the same without the knowledge.

"Nauros;c-1956875" wrote:

"UltimateZeus;c-1956873" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1956867" wrote:

"Dmitry_M81;c-1956855" wrote:
And it's huge advantage when you know opponent's banners, so you can either use undersized squads for extra banners or full squads for guaranteed win.
If banners (and maybe even squads defeated) are hidden - noone has advantage or disadvantage, fair deal for me.

Please explain how knowing you need to use an undersized team, makes winning the match easier??

It doesn't but if you are 45 score behind (excluding territory victory points) and you have 1 battle left... you know you can just send in 5 toons and clear it up instead of sending in an undersized squad to take a gamble to get a higher score.

This is just common sense.

Also, if you are 60 points behind, you know you have to take the risk and go undersized even if you wouldn't otherwise.

Which means that the player who attacked first very likely used undersized teams, too, thus dictating the terms under which the slower player could win.

Get there firstest with the mostest.

"4Lateralus7;c-1956754" wrote:
Let's say you have a coin. You get one point if you place it on the table heads up. You get 2 points if you flip it and get heads, zero points if tails... Your choice to just gain a point or flip. You have 3 turns to accumulate points to beat a number between 2 and 5. Would it help your decision making to know the number to beat? ?

Except that outscoring your current opponent is not the only goal in GAC. There are many additional incentive mechanisms at work here, such as championship score, rewards for feats and league promotions, in-league rank and rank-based GAC end rewards, and immediate credit rewards for beating teams. It pays off to always try for as many undersized wins as possible regardless of your opponent's banner situation. Every single banner gets you closer to a Kyber promotion and the best possible GAC end payout.

Another important difference is that you don't know which teams might be lurking in the back territories. Meaning you never have all the necessary information that would allow you to play it safe and avoid taking risks. Go for overkill in the initial battles and you might find yourself unable to beat that last team. This creates yet another incentive to always push your luck to some extent and try to win with the smallest possible advantage.

Finally, there is no such thing as a guaranteed win in SWGOH. At best you're flipping a weighted coin if you use a vastly superior squad. Even if your gear and mod advantage is through the roof, there is still a certain amount of chance involved because your game client could freeze or your internet connection might hiccup. All this modifies your game theory scenario to a point where your opponent's banners become irrelevant to a competitive player who always aims for the highest possible score.

Aside from all the points some people here mentioned, there can be one huge advantage of going second. If you know that your opponent has only one viable team to beat your Malak squad and you set your Malak on defense, and he full clears you, you will KNOW that he used that certain squad to beat it and that it won't be on defense. Whereas if you went first, you'd always have the thought in mind like "maybe he does have that one team in the backrow...". And then you would probably act differently compared to if you already knew it certainly wasn't there. That's just an example and can work with a lot of teams. If you know your counters well and analysed your opponents roster, you can basically tell with fairly high precision what stuff your opponent has in the backrows if you let your opponent attack you first. It may not play a big role in every single GA event, but it can be decisive in close matches or matchups. Knowing what your opponent has on defense is already a huge step to victory, providing you have the teams ready to beat them. (Knowing that an opponent has an OP squad you can't beat at all when he full clears you isn't really of much help.) You can always plan better when you know what to expect than when you don't know it at all (or not well enough). Going second provides you with information. Information is power. As I said, it might not affect every single GA event, but can and will affect a lot, unless you are way too op for your bracket and can steamroll the opposition without trying. But when it comes to even-ish matches, then it's not even debatable that going second gives you an advantage.

I read a thing about essential oils once about how they’re all (except peppermint) a bunch of bunkum nonsense.

The one exception (other than peppermint) was rosemary. It’s claimed to help with memory, so students have used it for centuries—Greek students used to wear garlands of rosemary when studying back in ancient times.

So a scientist whose name I forget did an experiment that I’m sure I’m going to butcher in my explanation, but the gist of it was he had two groups read a list of words and then recite aa many as they could remember. One group was in a normal room, another group was in a room with rosemary in the air (to avoid placebo they were told there had been a cooking class in the room the other day). The normal group could remember an average of 19 words, the rosemary group could remember an average of 19.5 words. The difference was so small that the scientist chalked it up to the margin of error between any two groups, then repeated the experiment to make sure. Every time the experiment was run the rosemary group remembered, on average, half a word more than the control group and the results were so consistent that he eventually accepted that rosemary really did have some short-term memory-enhancing effects.

The interviewer asked him after all that, “So do you use rosemary now that you know this?” And he replied, “No.” When asked why he said, “I know exercise gives you abs, I don’t do that, either. Too much work for not enough reward.” (Paraphrasing all of that, of course, but I definitely remember him saying he didn’t exercise either and that has much more defined benefits)

All of this is to say I have eaten the plums that whatever advantage attacking late has or does not have, it’s so minuscule compared to the possibility of just not having enough time to do your attacks that it’s not worth it. I’m 2-0 in the current round of GAC because I did my attacks first, in each one I only managed to beat two teams. Neither opponent has even attacked me yet. I don’t know why—maybe they meant to and forgot, maybe they just didn’t care (although the 1-0 opponent in the second round should have, why else were they 1-0?) but the bottom line is they had several hours and significantly better rosters and still lost without attacks.

Attacking last is the equivalent of wearing a rosemary garland.

More information is certainly, not "arguably" an advantage.

In a close GA match, decided by a couple of points, the advantage could be significant. In other matches, it might not amount to much.

It would be interesting to see some of you coach a college football overtime. I suppose you'll go first since knowing how many points are needed doesn't make it any easier to score those points.

It is neither opinion or preference.

Going second yields more information.

1. You can determine how much risk you need to take in attacking, by calculating required score resulting in marginal victories.
2. You can use which areas are cleared as a possible indication as to what may be in the back row. Full clear of meta squads at lower GP allows you to guess the back line is poorly populated (meaning you can go for max banners instead of saving complete meta squads to counter) - or if they fall on the first few areas you can assume they put the counters to your defence - on defence. Hence if you can't see them you also can guess they are at the back.

This is additional information which can swing a close defeat to a close victory. However, it can't make a huge loss a victory. But it is objectively a strategic advantage.