Grand Arena Matchmaking

"SenorPompo;c-2446130" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446126" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446123" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446117" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446116" wrote:

"StarSon;c-2446114" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446113" wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I also dispute the “occasionally” statement. Those matchups are the regular, and balanced and close matchups (within 500k GP) are few and far between.

As we learned when GP was how they did MM, GP is a terrible gauge of a close matchup.

Like I said above, it’s certainly far from perfect. But a system that comes down to “did your opponent with a massive GP advantage attack? If so, you lose” is an inferior system imo.

Did you experience the prior system to know how bad that was?

Yes, I’ve played with intermittent breaks since late 2017

Well then if you were to provide your allycode we could see the extent of the issue you currently face, and compare with your experiences in the old system.

Someone already posted it above

So in your current bracket you have the 7th highest GP (although the one above you is within 200k), and are only outmatched on GLs by two of those. The largest isn’t quite 3m more than you however. You also have one of the smallest number of GAC omicrons and in comparison have far fewer 6 dot mods and no datacrons. I can’t see more than that, but if you’ve struggled to compete it could be because you haven’t invested in GAC tools like omis and datacrons rather than being a purely GP issue.

In the last bracket you beat the highest GP of your three opponents, as someone with a 3m+ advantage on you, and seemed to give up pretty quickly with what was quite frankly pretty poor choice of counters in the battles you attempted against players 1.5m and 2.3m more than you.

The round before that you played opponents 2, 2.1 and 3m more than you, and won both the first two against the lower gp opponents.

Before that you had three battles against opponents within 1m of you and won one, although in neither case did the losses include a full clear.

The round before that you lost convincingly to a player within 500k of yourself, and then beat a player at your GP and another 5m+ bigger than you.

The round before that you lost to players 1.3 and 2.5m gp more than you while beating someone 3m larger.

In 18 matches you have faced one opponent who is at an advantage of more than 4m GP, so don’t throw out numbers that aren’t backed up by experience, and almost half were within 2m GP, which for a 6m+ account is about the standard range.

On top of that, a lot of your losses seem to be coming from similar size accounts, often with you not winning more than one battle on offence. Are you sure you want to go back to a more GP matchmaking based approach? Perhaps you should consider whether your balance of offence vs defences set is right for your league, and whether you have invested enough in GAC specific resources like omicrons and datacrons.


Finally, for context, in my latest bracket I’m also the second smallest GP, have the smallest number of GLs fewest relic tiers, 6 dot mods, zetas and omicrons. I’ve won one and after today will have lost two very close matches by handfuls of points. I’m not blaming the losses on matchmaking though, I just needed to git gud. Were all your matches really unwinnable from the moment you were matched?

Matchmaking is not why you are not enjoying GAC.

"SenorPompo;c-2446138" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446134" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446130" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446126" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446123" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446117" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446116" wrote:

"StarSon;c-2446114" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446113" wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I also dispute the “occasionally” statement. Those matchups are the regular, and balanced and close matchups (within 500k GP) are few and far between.

As we learned when GP was how they did MM, GP is a terrible gauge of a close matchup.

Like I said above, it’s certainly far from perfect. But a system that comes down to “did your opponent with a massive GP advantage attack? If so, you lose” is an inferior system imo.

Did you experience the prior system to know how bad that was?

Yes, I’ve played with intermittent breaks since late 2017

Well then if you were to provide your allycode we could see the extent of the issue you currently face, and compare with your experiences in the old system.

Someone already posted it above

So in your current bracket you have the 7th highest GP (although the one above you is within 200k), and are only outmatched on GLs by two of those. The largest isn’t quite 3m more than you however. You also have one of the smallest number of GAC omicrons and in comparison have far fewer 6 dot mods and no datacrons. I can’t see more than that, but if you’ve struggled to compete it could be because you haven’t invested in GAC tools like omis and datacrons rather than being a purely GP issue.

In the last bracket you beat the highest GP of your three opponents, as someone with a 3m+ advantage on you, and seemed to give up pretty quickly with what was quite frankly pretty poor choice of counters in the battles you attempted against players 1.5m and 2.3m more than you.

The round before that you played opponents 2, 2.1 and 3m more than you, and won both the first two against the lower gp opponents.

Before that you had three battles against opponents within 1m of you and won one, although in neither case did the losses include a full clear.

The round before that you lost convincingly to a player within 500k of yourself, and then beat a player at your GP and another 5m+ bigger than you.

The round before that you lost to players 1.3 and 2.5m gp more than you while beating someone 3m larger.

In 18 matches you have faced one opponent who is at an advantage of more than 4m GP, so don’t throw out numbers that aren’t backed up by experience, and almost half were within 2m GP, which for a 6m+ account is about the standard range.

On top of that, a lot of your losses seem to be coming from similar size accounts, often with you not winning more than one battle on offence. Are you sure you want to go back to a more GP matchmaking based approach? Perhaps you should consider whether your balance of offence vs defences set is right for your league, and whether you have invested enough in GAC specific resources like omicrons and datacrons.


Finally, for context, in my latest bracket I’m also the second smallest GP, have the smallest number of GLs fewest relic tiers, 6 dot mods, zetas and omicrons. I’ve won one and after today will have lost two very close matches by handfuls of points. I’m not blaming the losses on matchmaking though, I just needed to git gud. Were all your matches really unwinnable from the moment you were matched?

You’ve missed the reason behind what I’m saying. You stated earlier that you didn’t care if they don’t attack (meaning go for minimum banners) because you still get the crystals. Winning and losing is not the issue I brought up. Having close matchups is. If I beat somebody 3mil more than me, that doesn’t bring me enjoyment as I know if they actually cared to attack, I’d have lost. I don’t find enjoyment in winning something I know my opponent essentially let me win.

I don’t have any issues losing to players similarly matched GP wise. That, like you said, is just an instance of needing to get good.

As for the omnicrons, I’ve invested every single one I have into grand arena ones to my knowledge. I physically cannot invest anymore than I have. And doesn’t that go against one of your earlier points that this system allows people to build balanced rosters for territory battles for instance? How can I do that when every bit I’m investing into grand arena teams is still not enough?

The issue is you’re creating a false equivalence between similar GP and close/competitive matches. Ignoring for the moment that 8/18 of your most recent matches have been within 2m GP, which given your division is close enough to make no difference for the number of toons and ships you can actually utilise, you’ve had plenty of close matches against players with even larger GPs. Are you assuming that a battle is over before it’s begun just on the basis of your opponents GP? Could it have been more competitive if you’d researched your opponents and changed up the defence accordingly?

If you’re upset that your opponents don’t seem to engage with GAC, how is that the fault of the matchmaking. It sounds like your opponents have a problem with GAC.

Not all GP is equal.
Having a game mode encouraging people to not develop rosters is just dumb. Glad GP match making was ditched. Can't wait for it to go away in TW.

You’re forgetting how we used to have GP based matchmaking which proved to be unpopular with a lot more people than those who were fine with it.

You can punch up quite handily with the current system, provided you’ve invested wisely with your own roster.

"SenorPompo;c-2446142" wrote:

"StarSon;c-2446141" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446138" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446134" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446130" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446126" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446123" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446117" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446116" wrote:

"StarSon;c-2446114" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446113" wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I also dispute the “occasionally” statement. Those matchups are the regular, and balanced and close matchups (within 500k GP) are few and far between.

As we learned when GP was how they did MM, GP is a terrible gauge of a close matchup.

Like I said above, it’s certainly far from perfect. But a system that comes down to “did your opponent with a massive GP advantage attack? If so, you lose” is an inferior system imo.

Did you experience the prior system to know how bad that was?

Yes, I’ve played with intermittent breaks since late 2017

Well then if you were to provide your allycode we could see the extent of the issue you currently face, and compare with your experiences in the old system.

Someone already posted it above

So in your current bracket you have the 7th highest GP (although the one above you is within 200k), and are only outmatched on GLs by two of those. The largest isn’t quite 3m more than you however. You also have one of the smallest number of GAC omicrons and in comparison have far fewer 6 dot mods and no datacrons. I can’t see more than that, but if you’ve struggled to compete it could be because you haven’t invested in GAC tools like omis and datacrons rather than being a purely GP issue.

In the last bracket you beat the highest GP of your three opponents, as someone with a 3m+ advantage on you, and seemed to give up pretty quickly with what was quite frankly pretty poor choice of counters in the battles you attempted against players 1.5m and 2.3m more than you.

The round before that you played opponents 2, 2.1 and 3m more than you, and won both the first two against the lower gp opponents.

Before that you had three battles against opponents within 1m of you and won one, although in neither case did the losses include a full clear.

The round before that you lost convincingly to a player within 500k of yourself, and then beat a player at your GP and another 5m+ bigger than you.

The round before that you lost to players 1.3 and 2.5m gp more than you while beating someone 3m larger.

In 18 matches you have faced one opponent who is at an advantage of more than 4m GP, so don’t throw out numbers that aren’t backed up by experience, and almost half were within 2m GP, which for a 6m+ account is about the standard range.

On top of that, a lot of your losses seem to be coming from similar size accounts, often with you not winning more than one battle on offence. Are you sure you want to go back to a more GP matchmaking based approach? Perhaps you should consider whether your balance of offence vs defences set is right for your league, and whether you have invested enough in GAC specific resources like omicrons and datacrons.


Finally, for context, in my latest bracket I’m also the second smallest GP, have the smallest number of GLs fewest relic tiers, 6 dot mods, zetas and omicrons. I’ve won one and after today will have lost two very close matches by handfuls of points. I’m not blaming the losses on matchmaking though, I just needed to git gud. Were all your matches really unwinnable from the moment you were matched?

You’ve missed the reason behind what I’m saying. You stated earlier that you didn’t care if they don’t attack (meaning go for minimum banners) because you still get the crystals. Winning and losing is not the issue I brought up. Having close matchups is. If I beat somebody 3mil more than me, that doesn’t bring me enjoyment as I know if they actually cared to attack, I’d have lost. I don’t find enjoyment in winning something I know my opponent essentially let me win.

I don’t have any issues losing to players similarly matched GP wise. That, like you said, is just an instance of needing to get good.

As for the omnicrons, I’ve invested every single one I have into grand arena ones to my knowledge. I physically cannot invest anymore than I have. And doesn’t that go against one of your earlier points that this system allows people to build balanced rosters for territory battles for instance? How can I do that when every bit I’m investing into grand arena teams is still not enough?

Sorry, but close matchups are overrated. Also, a close matchup is not determined by GP. The comment you responded to did a good break down of how the roster makeup is much more important than just GP.

Why are close matchups overrated? I agree GP is not some be all end all of proximity of rosters, but there is a connection between higher GP disparity and the disparity between rosters

Because no one actually wants things to be competitive. That's why the AI is so bad. It's done that way on purpose so people don't quit because they can't win. Same for matchups. Almost no one actually wants a close matchup.

And there is no connection between higher GP disparity and roster disparity. In the old method you would routinely get 2M GP differences and the lower GP was always the winner because they had a specifically focused GA roster.

"SenorPompo;c-2446155" wrote:

"Drathuk916;c-2446150" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446148" wrote:

"Salatious_Scrum;c-2446144" wrote:
You’re forgetting how we used to have GP based matchmaking which proved to be unpopular with a lot more people than those who were fine with it.

You can punch up quite handily with the current system, provided you’ve invested wisely with your own roster.

I agree you can punch up, but more often than not it's the result of the opponent you're punching up to not caring enough to punch back rather than your punch being too decisive.

Your gp matchups are also misleading fyi. You’re clearly hoping for a return to gp based matchups so not spending resources until you’re actually working on a character.

I can say this by the fact your raddus, drogan and other marquee characters aren’t unlocked and you still have 40-50 characters at level one.

This is fine of course. Your game play how you want but it does mean your account isn’t the typical 6.1 million account but probably closer to the average 7-8 million account. So your problems in gac have even less to do with gp disparity.

I flat out disagree with that. Sure I have some unactivated toons, but what about all the activated toons at low gear levels? They're not actively helping anything in GAC, and would be considered bloat. What about all the level 1 toons I have with nothing invested but still at 7 star? Why would I star them at all if I was concerned about keeping GP down?

And this is exactly why we will never go back to GP based matchmaking.

"SenorPompo;c-2446152" wrote:

"Drathuk916;c-2446150" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446148" wrote:

"Salatious_Scrum;c-2446144" wrote:
You’re forgetting how we used to have GP based matchmaking which proved to be unpopular with a lot more people than those who were fine with it.

You can punch up quite handily with the current system, provided you’ve invested wisely with your own roster.

I agree you can punch up, but more often than not it's the result of the opponent you're punching up to not caring enough to punch back rather than your punch being too decisive.

Your game play how you want but it does mean your account isn’t the typical 6.1 million account but probably closer to the average 7-8 million account. So your problems in gac have even less to do with gp disparity.

I'd also ask for an actual basis for this statement on the average 6.1 million and the average 7-8 million accounts. It was you that got on me for just throwing numbers out with no basis in fact.

Yeah a bit of hyperbole but it doesn’t matter. I’m just suggesting that development choices you have made likely contribute more to your issues than your matchups. I’m guessing you’re a ds lover given you only have 3 gls and all are ds. I’m also guessing you hate ships given you have none of the big three.

Not gearing toons is fine. Not pursuing ships is fine. Making development choices as you see fit is fine. However they have consequences. And not just in gac but in every part of the game.

"SenorPompo;c-2446145" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446140" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446138" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446134" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446130" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446126" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446123" wrote:

"Notthatguyfrombefore;c-2446117" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446116" wrote:

"StarSon;c-2446114" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446113" wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I also dispute the “occasionally” statement. Those matchups are the regular, and balanced and close matchups (within 500k GP) are few and far between.

As we learned when GP was how they did MM, GP is a terrible gauge of a close matchup.

Like I said above, it’s certainly far from perfect. But a system that comes down to “did your opponent with a massive GP advantage attack? If so, you lose” is an inferior system imo.

Did you experience the prior system to know how bad that was?

Yes, I’ve played with intermittent breaks since late 2017

Well then if you were to provide your allycode we could see the extent of the issue you currently face, and compare with your experiences in the old system.

Someone already posted it above

So in your current bracket you have the 7th highest GP (although the one above you is within 200k), and are only outmatched on GLs by two of those. The largest isn’t quite 3m more than you however. You also have one of the smallest number of GAC omicrons and in comparison have far fewer 6 dot mods and no datacrons. I can’t see more than that, but if you’ve struggled to compete it could be because you haven’t invested in GAC tools like omis and datacrons rather than being a purely GP issue.

In the last bracket you beat the highest GP of your three opponents, as someone with a 3m+ advantage on you, and seemed to give up pretty quickly with what was quite frankly pretty poor choice of counters in the battles you attempted against players 1.5m and 2.3m more than you.

The round before that you played opponents 2, 2.1 and 3m more than you, and won both the first two against the lower gp opponents.

Before that you had three battles against opponents within 1m of you and won one, although in neither case did the losses include a full clear.

The round before that you lost convincingly to a player within 500k of yourself, and then beat a player at your GP and another 5m+ bigger than you.

The round before that you lost to players 1.3 and 2.5m gp more than you while beating someone 3m larger.

In 18 matches you have faced one opponent who is at an advantage of more than 4m GP, so don’t throw out numbers that aren’t backed up by experience, and almost half were within 2m GP, which for a 6m+ account is about the standard range.

On top of that, a lot of your losses seem to be coming from similar size accounts, often with you not winning more than one battle on offence. Are you sure you want to go back to a more GP matchmaking based approach? Perhaps you should consider whether your balance of offence vs defences set is right for your league, and whether you have invested enough in GAC specific resources like omicrons and datacrons.


Finally, for context, in my latest bracket I’m also the second smallest GP, have the smallest number of GLs fewest relic tiers, 6 dot mods, zetas and omicrons. I’ve won one and after today will have lost two very close matches by handfuls of points. I’m not blaming the losses on matchmaking though, I just needed to git gud. Were all your matches really unwinnable from the moment you were matched?

You’ve missed the reason behind what I’m saying. You stated earlier that you didn’t care if they don’t attack (meaning go for minimum banners) because you still get the crystals. Winning and losing is not the issue I brought up. Having close matchups is. If I beat somebody 3mil more than me, that doesn’t bring me enjoyment as I know if they actually cared to attack, I’d have lost. I don’t find enjoyment in winning something I know my opponent essentially let me win.

I don’t have any issues losing to players similarly matched GP wise. That, like you said, is just an instance of needing to get good.

As for the omnicrons, I’ve invested every single one I have into grand arena ones to my knowledge. I physically cannot invest anymore than I have. And doesn’t that go against one of your earlier points that this system allows people to build balanced rosters for territory battles for instance? How can I do that when every bit I’m investing into grand arena teams is still not enough?

The issue is you’re creating a false equivalence between similar GP and close/competitive matches. Ignoring for the moment that 8/18 of your most recent matches have been within 2m GP, which given your division is close enough to make no difference for the number of toons and ships you can actually utilise, you’ve had plenty of close matches against players with even larger GPs. Are you assuming that a battle is over before it’s begun just on the basis of your opponents GP? Could it have been more competitive if you’d researched your opponents and changed up the defence accordingly?

If you’re upset that your opponents don’t seem to engage with GAC, how is that the fault of the matchmaking. It sounds like your opponents have a problem with GAC.

Beating a far higher GP in a "close" match banner wise is ignoring context. Take my matchup in round 2 of the 9/26 arena, I won 74-71. Often in matchups where I'm going to need to be perfect (should they actually try to win) I'll do an attack to guarantee rewards then wait for their attacks to decide how conservative or aggressive I need to be. If they don't attack more than once, as seen in that round, I have no need to attack further as they're giving me the win anyways. Reading it on a screen it would appear as a close match, but in reality it wasn't a match at all.

I'm never assuming anything is over before it is done, especially when so many are content with getting the minimum banners regardless of result.

My opponents not engaging is a result of the matchmaking as the matchmaking is what matched us in the first place. I do acknowledge that a higher requirement for rewards as far as participation is concerned would also resolve my issue with GAC.

I again ask how the system encourages roster diversity while you're simultaneously telling me to invest more of my omnicrons (already 100%) on grand arena.

I’ll answer this once more and not again, partly as I’m tired, and partly as I’ve fallen into the fools errand of trying to convince a stranger on the internet of something using facts rather than feelings. So…

Why do you not full clear opponents and just leave it at the single battle? Could you have done more? Do you know they wouldn’t have put more effort in if you’d posted a higher score? From your opponents perspective it must seem as well as though you often don’t really care about GAC. Perhaps that approach is a winning strategy for you. If those are the opponents you face then either you must have the worst luck in the world to regularly face such apathetic opponents, or maybe it’s because those are the sorts of accounts which populate the division you are in. Do you know that the rest of your division contains players at 5-7m GP who are super competitive? Matchmaking can only put you in brackets with players with similar SR after all.

Others have spoken more about how GP is pointless as a matchmaking tool so I have nothing more to add to that. As for it not limiting expansion, while you may be limited by some resources others are more free. You have the choice to work on a team for TB or TW which you might not have had before. GP as a factor encourages lean rosters which is detrimental to every other game mode. This game isn’t just for you after all, how much GP is there in your guild which wouldn’t be there with GP based matchmaking? How many TW omicrons would guild mates not have applied, how many relics on obscure toons no longer available for Ops. Would any player have applied Boushh’s omicron for raids, despite how it helped guilds massively with Krayt. It’s a big picture, but ultimately GP in GAC does nothing positive, the old system was a mess, and ruins almost every other part of the game. Maybe you don’t feel you’re benefiting right now, but you are in so many ways that aren’t immediately visible.

…and I’m out. Feel free to have the last word.

"SenorPompo;c-2446168" wrote:

"Drathuk916;c-2446167" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446165" wrote:

"Drathuk916;c-2446164" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446155" wrote:

"Drathuk916;c-2446150" wrote:

"SenorPompo;c-2446148" wrote:

"Salatious_Scrum;c-2446144" wrote:
You’re forgetting how we used to have GP based matchmaking which proved to be unpopular with a lot more people than those who were fine with it.

You can punch up quite handily with the current system, provided you’ve invested wisely with your own roster.

I agree you can punch up, but more often than not it's the result of the opponent you're punching up to not caring enough to punch back rather than your punch being too decisive.

Your gp matchups are also misleading fyi. You’re clearly hoping for a return to gp based matchups so not spending resources until you’re actually working on a character.

I can say this by the fact your raddus, drogan and other marquee characters aren’t unlocked and you still have 40-50 characters at level one.

This is fine of course. Your game play how you want but it does mean your account isn’t the typical 6.1 million account but probably closer to the average 7-8 million account. So your problems in gac have even less to do with gp disparity.

I flat out disagree with that. Sure I have some unactivated toons, but what about all the activated toons at low gear levels? They're not actively helping anything in GAC, and would be considered bloat. What about all the level 1 toons I have with nothing invested but still at 7 star? Why would I star them at all if I was concerned about keeping GP down?

My Rex is r7 but I’d imagine a g8 Rex with omicron would still be viable in gac and pump up you Rex and 5s. I could be wrong. I’m not going to go over your entire roster. I’m also assuming you’re hoarding a fair amount of omicrons that if applied to some of your toons at low gear levels would still be very beneficial

Rex with omnicron would be useful. I don't have any to give him, and my next one is going to Wampa. I'm hoarding no omincrons, believe I'm 11/20 with it planned to go to Wampa as previously stated. Is there a way for me to show that to you? I would gladly do so. You mentioned your focus on facts vs feelings, but it certainly appears you're making an awful lot of assumptions.

I wasn’t the one that said anything about facts vs. feeling.

All I’m saying is your choices imo are probably more determinative than mm. I stand corrected on omicrons. 6 omicrons applied to gac is awfully low though as an fyi. It’s also why I assumed you were hoarding.

Accept my opinion or ignore it. I honestly doubt you’d do better in gac if you got your wish.

6 omnicrons is all I’ve gotten. Can’t invest more than I have without spending $. As stated previously, it’s not about doing “better,” it’s about enjoyment. I can enjoy a matchup even in a loss when there’s actual engagement on both sides. That was something I saw more of in the old system.

I get that pov. I do agree something needs to be done to address those that join but don’t engage. Bringing back gp based mm is not the answer though. Personally I’d prefer an opt out option that awarded more crystals than joining and doing nothing but less than going say 3-6 or 4-5. I’m firmly against gp being considered though.