6 years ago

Something is rotten in the state of GAC

First off, huge congrats to the top 10 players, and particularly to THΞ WOLFP∆CK, who have 3 players in the top 10!

#1 IW Maksomaniya: https://swgoh.gg/p/385525921/
#2 Lifeazure: https://swgoh.gg/p/626873282/
#3 MartinNi: https://swgoh.gg/p/886145185/
#4 darksrevan: https://swgoh.gg/p/533269823/
#5 SpartaN: https://swgoh.gg/p/692467664/
#6 GaurWrath: https://swgoh.gg/p/648611186/
#7 DarthSpeed: https://swgoh.gg/p/512953529/
#8 Chet Manley: https://swgoh.gg/p/455378485/
#9 DrazZ: https://swgoh.gg/p/357746445/
#10 DarthJeyanus: https://swgoh.gg/p/386369535/

However, upon closer analysis, we see this cannot be "the 10 best SWGOH players" by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know what happened and am definitely not claiming any of these players cheated: matchmaking is just as suspect here. But in particular I wish to draw your attention to the #1 player, who has:

Zetas: 58
Arena ranks (squad/fleet): Rank 59 / Rank 54
Number of G11: 12
Number of G12: 88
Number of G13: 1
Number of 6 dot mods: 46
Number of 10+ speed mods: 193
Number of 15+ speed mods: 58
Number of 20+ speed mods: 14
Number of 25+ speed mods: 0
Number of 100+ offense mods: 31

There is simply no way this person faced competition at the level I did (I scraped into kyber). So, you say, 1 person lucked their way into a top spot? That isn't too bad.

So I draw your attention to the #5, #8 and #13 players:

#5:
Zetas: 60
Arena ranks (squad/fleet): Rank 13 / Rank 49
Number of G11: 46
Number of G12: 52
Number of G13: 5
Number of 6 dot mods: 62
Number of 10+ speed mods: 246
Number of 15+ speed mods: 84
Number of 20+ speed mods: 19
Number of 25+ speed mods: 1
Number of 100+ offense mods: 27
no Padme

#8:
Zetas: 66
Arena ranks (squad/fleet): Rank 17 / Rank 56
Number of G11: 73
Number of G12: 40
Number of G13: 4
Number of 6 dot mods: 38
Number of 10+ speed mods: 238
Number of 15+ speed mods: 63
Number of 20+ speed mods: 17
Number of 25+ speed mods: 1
Number of 100+ offense mods: 17

and #13:
Zetas: 53
Arena ranks (squad/fleet): Rank 17 / Rank 2
Number of G11: 97
Number of G12: 41
Number of G13: 2
Number of 6 dot mods: 44
Number of 10+ speed mods: 176
Number of 15+ speed mods: 38
Number of 20+ speed mods: 8
Number of 25+ speed mods: 2
Number of 100+ offense mods: 23
and Padme g8 no zetas.

No offense to these players. They probably played their hearts out. But between matchmaking and the specter of cheating, the leaderboard is meaningless. Seeing surprises at the top is great, and can give us hope that we can make it too. But in reality, match any of these with the majority of the players in the top 50 and they will get destroyed... and having 3 "upsets" in the top 10 and more continuing down doesn't mean there were awesome upsets: it means the ranking system is broken. Matchmaking, the point system and cheaters are ruining it.

pvp

PlanetOfRedDevi
6 years ago
At this point, does anyone still think the leaderboard means anything? It's completely meaningless. At best it tells you how weak your opponents are
cannonfodder_iv
New Spectator
6 years ago
Excellent post. I think they did themselves a major disservice by creating a leaderboard and calling it a championship. If they just called it Progressive Grand Arena and left the rankings out of it, a lot of the disdain for the feature would have gone away. At least mine would have.

Top end players like to compete but, based on your findings, that competition does not appear to be happening on an "even" playing field.

I'd prefer they scrap the whole thing, go back to the old GA format (with whatever MM you want, couldn't care less at this point) with the old rewards structure.
emvedebe
6 years ago
"cannonfodder_iv;c-1934012" wrote:

Top end players like to compete but, based on your findings, that competition does not appear to be happening on an "even" playing field.

It's not that i disagree about the leaderboard being meaningless, but the the definition of "even playing field" ea/cg are using for the ranking is that everyone faces players with roughly equal rosters. So a "mediocre" roster ending up in the top of the leaderboard is arguably a argument in favour of the "even playing field".
heiligenborre
6 years ago
What are you talking about?

I for one will cheer that no one from the top-10 guilds in term of GP has been admitted into the top-10 or this GA and will call THAT a refreshing "World's First", hahaa!

Power to the Underdogs, yeah!
jeremyprosser
New Spectator
6 years ago
Just an observation, but the guy in first has 88 g12. At his gp you have to field what, 8 teams? That means you need 80 toons at least, 40 def, and 40 offense, if you clear all in one battle. None of the rest of the ones you shared can field a full 80 g12+ toons on off and def, so they have to go weaker on def and keep a strong offense or strong def and have a weaker offense. He can do both. Plus if he is diligent to finish the feats, that will bolster his score more.
thirtiethruby84
6 years ago
Just because they bought the best characters and gear doesn’t mean they know how to play the game
NyKynoe
6 years ago
There are several points to consider when looking at the scoring.

Firstly we are still in an exhibition, this means that it is possible this will change as time moves on.

Secondly, it actually makes sense that from a division a "mid level" GP would have a chance to get more points than the "top dogs", some possible reasons are- facing slightly easier defenses, which could lead to more feats being completed, more points gained from teams/zones cleared, and general wins

Third, as has been stated before, "top player" doesn't have any direct correlation to GP. This is what makes GP a good base for matching, it allows the player to shine through with skill.
emvedebe
6 years ago
"Kyno;c-1934058" wrote:

Secondly, it actually makes sense that from a division a "mid level" GP would have a chance to get more points than the "top dogs", some possible reasons are- facing slightly easier defenses, which could lead to more feats being completed, more points gained from teams/zones cleared, and general wins

That may make sense, but it's definately an argument in favour of the leaderboard being meaningless.
homerjsolo
6 years ago
"Kyno;c-1934058" wrote:

Secondly, it actually makes sense that from a division a "mid level" GP would have a chance to get more points than the "top dogs", some possible reasons are- facing slightly easier defenses, which could lead to more feats being completed, more points gained from teams/zones cleared, and general wins

I think you mean that in the context of GAC and the way we understand matchmaking to work it's not surprising. It definitely doesn't "make sense" if you consider this to be a competition and the leaderboard to be reflective of the best.
Acrofales
6 years ago
"MandalörianMercenary;c-1934008" wrote:
What tool have you used for the player analysis?

DSR bot's recruit function.

"Prosser;c-1934029" wrote:
Just an observation, but the guy in first has 88 g12. At his gp you have to field what, 8 teams? That means you need 80 toons at least, 40 def, and 40 offense, if you clear all in one battle. None of the rest of the ones you shared can field a full 80 g12+ toons on off and def, so they have to go weaker on def and keep a strong offense or strong def and have a weaker offense. He can do both. Plus if he is diligent to finish the feats, that will bolster his score more.

Once again, I am not saying he didn't get there legitimately. I am saying his roster doesn't hold up against many other players who took GAC seriously. As for his roster... g12s are nice, but mods and zetas are the real dealbreaker. A 278 speed Darth Revan is not scaring anybody (just to be clear: my thrawn is faster than that), nor are a 244 speed Bossk without his unique zeta... or a Mother Talzin without her unique zeta.

Now given the matchmaking system he may simply have gotten matched with other people who don't have the number of zetas or mods to compete with the rest of the top 50 in division 1. And that's completely fair, but that the ranking system subsequently "decides" he is the very best player in SWGOH means that ranking system is simply broken.

"Tiggus;c-1934024" wrote:
What are you talking about?

I for one will cheer that no one from the top-10 guilds in term of GP has been admitted into the top-10 or this GA and will call THAT a refreshing "World's First", hahaa!

Power to the Underdogs, yeah!

That is another way of looking at it. But does it really make sense to have a top 10 with players who have absolutely no chance at beating the real top rosters? And I'm not saying "pick a random whale". I am saying that players like Maraxus (top ranked TI player), Zetre (top ranked MAW player) or any of those Wolfpack players in the top 10 would wreck these players without breaking a sweat. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that MOST of the players from any of the guilds that dominate the monthly TW top 10 will all beat them without breaking a sweat.

"3pourr2;c-1934036" wrote:
Just because they bought the best characters and gear doesn’t mean they know how to play the game

There are plenty of players who take PvP seriously and have rosters built for it, and not just random whales. In fact, there are whole guilds built around PvP.

Now, once again, I am not claiming they climbed to their ranks illegitimately. Everybody got matched in CG's system and the points are scored the way they are. But clearly the ranking is not working.

"No_Try;c-1934050" wrote:
@Acrofales does your pertinent gp match with any of them? If not, naturally they didn't meet any competition such as you.

One in the list is from my guild and I know how crazy tactical that person can play it to the utmost capability of his roster.

I didn't fight any of these players. I am also not accusing them of cheating. And in fact, I think it's great that there are upsets happening. But the ranking as is, unfortunately gives us no way of distinguishing someone who legitimately punches way above his weight class, someone who was matched with chumps and lucked his way to the top, and, yes, someone who cheated.