The Cost of Blurring the Lines: Whales and FTP

"Palanthian;d-200865" wrote:

In comes instantly meta JKR with so much time to prepare and hoard, obtainable with severely under-geared characters - and he returns within just 3 months. Furthermore, slower and less well modded JKR teams can beat the very best on the shard with ease.

hey, First JKR event had big Z for 1 week before actual event and Juhani and t3 or Mission 3 weeks before event.
More so, to get Chewie you needed BHs which occurred 1 w before JKR event. And it was hard to do event without Bossk. And no one new if it's going to be some OR event or Jango's Legendary or Legendary for Solo movie. Tons of characters(and ships) and none is certain.
Summing all, it was nearly impossible to get JKR first time for F2p. Unless you hoarded 30k crystals and farmed characters.

"Palanthian;d-200865" wrote:

Guess what the big spenders are thinking about all this? Well, they're wondering why they bought the characters and ships from marquee packs and shipments with ... you know ... MONEY. They're wondering why they paid so much just to be batted out of the top 20 by players with half their GP and pitiful mods.

Like it or not, this is a mobile game, and people used to understand that whales got a significant advantage after the first release, then dolphins and FTP got to catch up later.

If ppl loved to play the games where money means win - they'd be playing with Exchange. Like it or not money helps to cut the time and affort in gaining victory not just arrogantly shutting smn up with your status.

I dislike negativity for Malak myself, but you are not right with using wrongs

I'm a dolphin and I don't care that whales get things first and I get them later. The problem is the gear wall. Having to waste expensive gear on useless characters to get a useful character is dumb and pushes f2p farther behind until they quit. Doesn't help whales either to keep piling on more requirements to make your first investment good enough to use. Unfortunately whales are willing to keep piling on the money, so CG can keep increasing the requirements knowing the whales will spend it out of fear of losing to other whales.

So maybe it becomes harder to get shards - that could be fine, IF the gear wall gets pushed back down to 8 or 9 with decent mods. That way whales go back to getting characters first and f2p/dolphins don't have to waste gear 3 months later to get a character that is now less relevant.

I have read posts like this one for months and I think there is a need to point out a few flaws in the often repeated argument: Whales pay for the game, if it weren't for Whales there would be no game.

The initial post is right that Whales pay for some of this game and that CG's business model appears to be increasingly based on Whale-style behaviour. Without detailed figures we don't know whether Whales contribute most of CG's income - dolphins and occasional spenders will also contribute and may be more valuable as a whole. However, I am happy to work on the basis that Whale spending supports the current financial model.

The mistake is to assume that Whales are necessary, i.e. that a Ftp game must have Whales to support it. This is simply not true. One of the earlier posters in this discussion has already pointed out that there are other gaming models which work and which could support a thriving mobile game like this one. Take a couple of simple examples for other areas of business. First, the food industry. McDonalds makes a lot of money - it has a greater annual income stream than some countries - but it does not achieve this by selling very expensive burgers, it does it by selling a lot of cheaper burgers. Henry Ford worked this out with the Model T and cars - selling a lot of cars for less money makes more money than selling a few cars for a lot. Computer gaming is no different. Swgoh and other games could be produced and made very profitable on a similar business model. Whales are NOT necessary for Ftp gaming or for mobile games or any other sort of gaming.

Whale behaviour also causes problems. First, if a game is built on the whale model the cost of items in game becomes extremely high. This actually restricts spending by other people, people like me who spend some money on the game but not big sums. Because the paywalls are so high I have to choose between in game spending and spending in real life on myself and my family. The sums required are simply too much to justify on a better than average family budget in the UK and so I don't spend them. If characters or other boosts were less expensive I would actually spend more. I am clearly not alone in this as these forums and others are full of posts from people saying it is not worth investing in the game any longer at these levels. Building a business model based on greater numbers of spenders who each spend less per head would change this.

Second, a game built on the whale model is in danger of losing one of its vital qualities, its player base. A thriving Arena, thriving guilds, people to chat and play with, vigorous and challenging PvP all require a vibrant and lively player base. That means numbers and Whales alone cannot and do not provide this, for this you need Ftp or small spenders in large numbers and the way CG is currently moving the game puts that in danger. Check the posts from people trying to start out in the game or those from guild officers who have lost long term and valuable guild members today because of these changes.

So, yes Whales you do support the current financial model of Swgoh but please do not claim that without you this game could not go on. There are other ways of making very large sums of money from gaming which CG could use. Whales do not keep the game alive for the rest of us. Indeed, there is a risk that Whales could kill this game by continuing to spend at levels which are simply not sensible for most people. If so, this game could become an empty desert like so many depopulated MMORPGs and once that happens Swgoh will die. More to the point, if spending was at a more sensible level we could have a game which more of us could really enjoy, with more diversity and in which your achievements were the result of your skill as a player. That would surely be better for all of us?

@M3kno
Whoa, someone understands that lowering prices usually increases buyers. Didn't expect this here ;)

I am completely f2p, not cause i can’t spend the money, but because i like the challenge. I don’t mind that CG is making the game a bit more whale friendly now, but just don’t make the game too difficult for f2p players. The hard nodes being brought back down to 5 is a good example, not major but still cripples farming for f2p. The events is another example. Reduce the time limit or something, so only the f2p hoarders and whales can get the new character or make the event a bit more difficult, so can be done at gear lv 10 with huge rng and strategies or easy auto at gear lv 12.

All i am trying to say in the most convoluted way is, f2p players are still going to get the characters, no matter what. Make the changes to make the line clear again, just don’t forget about the f2p players who help in their small ways. I got a friend to join, turns out he was a huge whale. over took me within a matter of months... But by logical standards, a lower price might mean a higher income anyway

"M3kno;c-1830567" wrote:
I have read posts like this one for months and I think there is a need to point out a few flaws in the often repeated argument: Whales pay for the game, if it weren't for Whales there would be no game.

The initial post is right that Whales pay for some of this game and that CG's business model appears to be increasingly based on Whale-style behaviour. Without detailed figures we don't know whether Whales contribute most of CG's income - dolphins and occasional spenders will also contribute and may be more valuable as a whole. However, I am happy to work on the basis that Whale spending supports the current financial model.

The mistake is to assume that Whales are necessary, i.e. that a Ftp game must have Whales to support it. This is simply not true. One of the earlier posters in this discussion has already pointed out that there are other gaming models which work and which could support a thriving mobile game like this one. Take a couple of simple examples for other areas of business. First, the food industry. McDonalds makes a lot of money - it has a greater annual income stream than some countries - but it does not achieve this by selling very expensive burgers, it does it by selling a lot of cheaper burgers. Henry Ford worked this out with the Model T and cars - selling a lot of cars for less money makes more money than selling a few cars for a lot. Computer gaming is no different. Swgoh and other games could be produced and made very profitable on a similar business model. Whales are NOT necessary for Ftp gaming or for mobile games or any other sort of gaming.

Whale behaviour also causes problems. First, if a game is built on the whale model the cost of items in game becomes extremely high. This actually restricts spending by other people, people like me who spend some money on the game but not big sums. Because the paywalls are so high I have to choose between in game spending and spending in real life on myself and my family. The sums required are simply too much to justify on a better than average family budget in the UK and so I don't spend them. If characters or other boosts were less expensive I would actually spend more. I am clearly not alone in this as these forums and others are full of posts from people saying it is not worth investing in the game any longer at these levels. Building a business model based on greater numbers of spenders who each spend less per head would change this.

Second, a game built on the whale model is in danger of losing one of its vital qualities, its player base. A thriving Arena, thriving guilds, people to chat and play with, vigorous and challenging PvP all require a vibrant and lively player base. That means numbers and Whales alone cannot and do not provide this, for this you need Ftp or small spenders in large numbers and the way CG is currently moving the game puts that in danger. Check the posts from people trying to start out in the game or those from guild officers who have lost long term and valuable guild members today because of these changes.

So, yes Whales you do support the current financial model of Swgoh but please do not claim that without you this game could not go on. There are other ways of making very large sums of money from gaming which CG could use. Whales do not keep the game alive for the rest of us. Indeed, there is a risk that Whales could kill this game by continuing to spend at levels which are simply not sensible for most people. If so, this game could become an empty desert like so many depopulated MMORPGs and once that happens Swgoh will die. More to the point, if spending was at a more sensible level we could have a game which more of us could really enjoy, with more diversity and in which your achievements were the result of your skill as a player. That would surely be better for all of us?

I get involved in a lot of the GA and matchmaking discussions on here. One thing I’ve noticed is that more people seem to prefer convincing, easy wins over challenging wins (and potential losses).

To your point, if the f2p and small spenders stop playing or stop trying, this will become a whale only game. I don’t think they’ll enjoy their big spending as much when there’s no more easy wins.

Personally, I’ve been a small spender and the last 12 months of this game are really making me consider quitting. I don’t mind not being top in arena or even GA, but not being able to do the Malak event because I didn’t spend on DR is taking away from my enjoyment of the game. I’m betting you won’t be able to use Malak on a meta team without DR, so why restrict the event?

@Palanthian
I appreciate that you would like exclusivity and I understand that this is part of the Whale model. However, it is not a necessary part of the business model.

With a different model which did not depend on elite spending it would be possible to have a greater variety of teams, each capable of winning, the much sought after Rock Paper Scissors scenario. New exclusive teams that are very hard to beat are only needed if you have to sell them at very high prices. In a different model new toons could enhance particular factions or strategies or suit particular mod set ups which would make them valuable to some players but not others. Players could choose what to invest in and create different and contrasting teams and rostas, perhaps based on fan choice. Do you really like bounty hunters, original trilogy, clones, koror etc. Who won and who lost would then depend on modding, skill and the success or otherwise of your investment strategy as a player. We could avoid the blocks of JKR or Traya that clog the Arena. In this scenario exclusivity is not necessary and instead is replaced by player choice informed by skill and understanding. You can still take rank 1 in Arena but you would have to think harder and play better to be able to do it, using that ability to inform your use of resources, these being capable of being boosted by smaller individual spending. I think that is a better game and would represent a much greater achievement as a player then simply buying a pre-made OP team.

Exclusivity is only needed if you want to play pay to win.

"Palanthian;d-200865" wrote:


In comes instantly meta JKR with so much time to prepare and hoard, obtainable with severely under-geared characters - and he returns within just 3 months. Furthermore, slower and less well modded JKR teams can beat the very best on the shard with ease.

The result of this? Large numbers of FTP can now get #1 in arena for the first time, and they love it (understandably)! Add to this the Falcon, which is equally effective at 5 stars as it is at 7 - again, large numbers of FTP can get #1 for the first time. Easier than ever to hoard crystals.

Like it or not this was a planned CALCULATED move on EA/CG's part. They saw the writing on the wall they have the facts and figures. It's a psychological ploy used in many places. addicts could probably tell you the best.

Here is how it works.

1) Bosses see spending figures are stagnant and deploy a 6 month get well plan.
2) JKR allows whales to dominate for months but some FTP sneak in. But they made the bank on Revan
3) 2nd coming like OP said... EVERYONE can now get a taste of that sweet sweet 1st place. Now for a few months the whales maybe even the bottom line may suffer....BUT THEY GAVE YOU THE TASTE. That first bump for free for the F2P now all they have to do is wait for the addiction to that first bump to set in.... you got the taste you want more..... and more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It's smart, it's calculated, it might even allow the game to go on for the full extent of whatever plan they have....(we know it definitely has nothing to do with ships...I mean 2 years and we still dont' have a single place where we can even use them or NEED them for anything except for a legendary that will be dead in 2 months.

All the whales complaining about JKR and the access it granted to FTP should really stop the complaining... In the end that little bump/taste will drive spending for a long time chasing the unicorn it will ensure they have people to beat up on for a while

If....it works, if the players chase that high it will be a glorious success and that 3-6 month plan will be a glorious success.

@Palanthian
I am an occasional spender. Good post. Have to keep whales, dolphins and FTP types happy to keep game alive. Nice to see clearly stated opinions, even if they are unpopular.

I'm a whale and I enjoy getting an advantage but the manner in which this event is being dropped is an insult to the community. Just because I'm.not being insulted isn't a reason for me to tell those that are they're being unreasonable for stating that they're being insulted. The very least that could have been done is to drop it after the upcoming JKR event to give newbies, ftp and dolphins a shot at participating in ONE of the TWO battles which has been a common theme. I'm glad to see a more balanced approach.