I could be doing the math wrong, but with offense sets increasing to 15%, and critical damage triangles getting the bump to 42% at 6 dot, it seems like cd sets will now very rarely give you more damage than offensive sets. As soon as your critical damage hits 200, then an offense set which gives you +15% offense would then be +30% on a critical hit, right? Which means that even without leader abilities that add to critical damage or critical damage up buffs, a cd of 192 with an offense set would give you ~29% extra damage. So, even in this scenario you’d only get an extra 1% damage on each critical with 15% less on non-criticals. If I did the math right, you’d need to have 96% critical chance for the average damage to break even, more if you factor in critical avoidance and immunity. Maybe useful for Ventress, but I think everyone else that has that hi of cc will have a higher cd as well.
This might turn out to be a pretty stealthy update by the devs. Everyone has been thrilled when looking at speed thinking that we don’t need to farm new mods. But the more I theory craft factoring in the new mod bonuses the more I want completely different mods than I have now. I’m going to end up reframing anyways...
I am getting the similar results. For most characters it looks like the CD set will be less useful than an offensive set, but the CD Triangle will still be more useful than an Offense Triangle for most characters. Furthermore it looks like if you are using a CD Triangle, there is basically never a situation when a CD Set should also be used. This seems to fit with their goal of encouraging players to use a wider variety of stats rather than stacking all of one thing.
Cases: Purple (Triangle Comparison: No CD Set) | Green (Triangle Comparison: w/CD Set) Orange (Set Comparison: No CD Triangle) | Blue (Set Comparison: w/CD Triangle)
"Train;c-1618433" wrote: I am getting the similar results. For most characters it looks like the CD set will be less useful than an offensive set, but the CD Triangle will still be more useful than an Offense Triangle for most characters. Furthermore it looks like if you are using a CD Triangle, there is basically never a situation when a CD Set should also be used. This seems to fit with their goal of encouraging players to use a wider variety of stats rather than stacking all of one thing.
Cases: Purple (Triangle Comparison: No CD Set) | Green (Triangle Comparison: w/CD Set) Orange (Set Comparison: No CD Triangle) | Blue (Set Comparison: w/CD Triangle)
Cheers.
can you translate this graphic into something resembling english
"Train;c-1618433" wrote: I am getting the similar results. For most characters it looks like the CD set will be less useful than an offensive set, but the CD Triangle will still be more useful than an Offense Triangle for most characters. Furthermore it looks like if you are using a CD Triangle, there is basically never a situation when a CD Set should also be used. This seems to fit with their goal of encouraging players to use a wider variety of stats rather than stacking all of one thing.
Cases: Purple (Triangle Comparison: No CD Set) | Green (Triangle Comparison: w/CD Set) Orange (Set Comparison: No CD Triangle) | Blue (Set Comparison: w/CD Triangle)
Cheers.
Looks pretty good. Doesn't seem like you've included a base offense level though. Which since we are talking about maximizing damage, we can usually plan on at least 2 offense primaries making base offense for 5A 111.76%, and 6E 117%. Really we'd probably see further increases in the base % with secondaries and more potential primaries as well, but sticking with 2 primaries as an average base is relatively safe.
This is a relatively minor oversight, but it does skew offense set mods towards being slightly better than they are. Right now the crit chance breakpoint with a set and triangle is closer to 25%.
Allow me to further play into DarthEagames stereotype... There are currently only 2 places to get Critical Damage from mods: the Critical Damage set bonus, and the Triangle Mod Primary Stat. That means there are four cases to compare . For comparison purposes, I assume all other stats are identical (which is obviously unlikely in reality because we don't all have identical mods lying around, but this is a theoretical exercise). The idea is hold everything else constant and compare the item in question to determine which on average gives more damage. I would not consider these numbers definitive by any means, there are many other factors to consider, but it's how the math worked out for me on average damage.
So for the purple case, lets assume we had two identical Triangle mods, except one has Critical Damage as the primary stat, and the other has Offense as the primary stat and you do not have a Critical Damage set bonus. All your other mods and mod bonuses are identical. Currently with 5A mods, if your critical chance is above 17.79%, it is on average better to use a Triangle mod with Critical Damage rather than offense. If we upgraded both of these mods to 6E mods, then your critical chance would have to be higher than 22.52% for the critical damage primary to yield more damage than the offense primary. The green case repeats the purple case, but assuming you do have a CD set active.
For the orange case, lets assume we had two identical mod sets, except one is a Critical Damage set bonus and the other has an Offense set bonus and you do not have a critical damage primary on the triangle. All of the other stats and bonuses on all your other mods are the same. Currently with 5A mods, if your critical chance is above 40%, it is on average better to use a Critical Damage set than an Offense set. If we upgraded both of these sets to 6E mods, then your critical chance would have to be higher than 66.67% for the critical damage set to yield more damage, otherwise the offense set would be better. The final blue case repeats the orange case, but assuming you do have a CD triangle.
Woodroward, unless I am misunderstanding how critical damage is applied (which is certainly a possibility, I by no means claim to have perfect knowledge of the game), base offense doesn't matter. To use the saying: a high tide raises all ships. If offense goes up, it increases critical and non-critical damage by the same percentage to their original values. It starts in the equation I used, but actually cancels out (see attached).
"Turvantus;c-1617740" wrote: That’s a high bar to fill. So for the majority of toons, it’s basically just Offense set + Crit Chance set with a Crit Chance Triangle. Otherwise if they’re able to achieve higher than 75% CC without a CC Triangle, go with CC+CD set and CD Triangle.
"Train;c-1620028" wrote: Allow me to further play into DarthEagames stereotype... There are currently only 2 places to get Critical Damage from mods: the Critical Damage set bonus, and the Triangle Mod Primary Stat. That means there are four cases to compare . For comparison purposes, I assume all other stats are identical (which is obviously unlikely in reality because we don't all have identical mods lying around, but this is a theoretical exercise). The idea is hold everything else constant and compare the item in question to determine which on average gives more damage. I would not consider these numbers definitive by any means, there are many other factors to consider, but it's how the math worked out for me on average damage.
So for the purple case, lets assume we had two identical Triangle mods, except one has Critical Damage as the primary stat, and the other has Offense as the primary stat and you do not have a Critical Damage set bonus. All your other mods and mod bonuses are identical. Currently with 5A mods, if your critical chance is above 17.79%, it is on average better to use a Triangle mod with Critical Damage rather than offense. If we upgraded both of these mods to 6E mods, then your critical chance would have to be higher than 22.52% for the critical damage primary to yield more damage than the offense primary. The green case repeats the purple case, but assuming you do have a CD set active.
For the orange case, lets assume we had two identical mod sets, except one is a Critical Damage set bonus and the other has an Offense set bonus and you do not have a critical damage primary on the triangle. All of the other stats and bonuses on all your other mods are the same. Currently with 5A mods, if your critical chance is above 40%, it is on average better to use a Critical Damage set than an Offense set. If we upgraded both of these sets to 6E mods, then your critical chance would have to be higher than 66.67% for the critical damage set to yield more damage, otherwise the offense set would be better. The final blue case repeats the orange case, but assuming you do have a CD triangle.
Woodroward, unless I am misunderstanding how critical damage is applied (which is certainly a possibility, I by no means claim to have perfect knowledge of the game), base offense doesn't matter. To use the saying: a high tide raises all ships. If offense goes up, it increases critical and non-critical damage by the same percentage to their original values. It starts in the equation I used, but actually cancels out (see attached).
So when modding for offense, The game uses your unmodded offense - damage on gear equipped at the current gear level. Reaching the next gear level will let those stats sink in and be affected by mods.
A character's damage is basically their physical/special damage * their ability multiplier. For example lets use IG88. He has a max base physical damage of around 2900 with 270 of that being from g12/g12+ gear. Lets say we mod him up to 4000 physical damage with primaries and secondaries. An offense set will increase his physical damage by .10 * (2900-270) = 263. 263 is not a 10% increase in damage over 4000 physical damage, it's a 6.5% increase in damage. Just like a 42% increase on top of 180% crit damage is not a 42% increase in damage, it's a 15% increase in damage.
So just like you made a base crit damage to determine the % damage increase for the crit damage actual % in match damage increase, we need a base offense. Since the only primary on the box mod is offense, no character has a base damage that matches what mods see as 100% offense. Right now, base damage is 105.88% offense, and will soon be 108.5% offense. Since we are talking about which of these is better damage, people will be stacking offense on them. So adding in the value of 1 extra offense primary when they could have 3 extra plus 9 secondaries is a conservative way to determine actual values.
So by not having a base offense value, offense appears to be increasing damage more than it is and your results end up skewed towards the offense set being slightly better than it actually is.
Now keep in mind, critical damage is based around what it says in the panel, offense is based around what it says in the panel. Damage is based around what you see in match.The first 2 are just steps on the road to the 3rd. The 3rd is what really matters.
Since we are after determining bigger increase in in-match damage, we need figures for the actual increase. Crit damage will always be the bigger number. The crit chance breakpoint is the % of damage increase that offense gives compared to crit damage. If we don't have a base offense to determine actual damage increase from the offense set and just go with 10/15% , well 10% compared to15% is 67% crit chance, but it's only a 6.5% increase with maxed offense secondaries, and 6.5% compared to 15% is only 43% crit chance.
So if you're interested, here's my formula for comparison of offense mods vs. crit damage mods. It isn't updated for 6e, but it's the most accurate formula for comparing sets of mods I've seen.
Everyone has a compelling argument over which is better and why, but in reality the only blanket rule that you can apply to which mod is better is this: if the group composition gives a 20%+ crit chance bonus that will have large if not constant uptime, crit damage is better.
There are 3 things that most people don't take into account when comparing mods, the first is that what mods consider 100% offense is not what we would consider 100% it is less than that. 105.88% offense is the base that we call 100%.
The other is the fact that as you get more and more offense primaries and secondaries on your gear, the value of the offense set as a % of our in match damage decreases. This means that, in general, offense sets have a higher value early in game, but tend to decrease in value the closer you get to end game.
Finally, stats from gear equipped in the current level do not count towards base stats and must be subtracted before %es are calculated and added back in afterwards for a complete figure.
Bearing all that in mind, it's rather complicated which is better, and it really comes down to the other stats on the mods, and the composition you are using them in (Darth Nihilus leads will always prefer offense mods for instance). So I have come up with a formula that accurately compares a set of crit damage mods and offense mods to see which will result in the highest overall damage increase on average.
The long drawn out but entirely accurate formula on how to compare is as follows: in match effects crit damage set stats offense set stats 100 / ((100 / (186 / 30)) * (100 / (Base offense - Applicable damage from Current gear) * (1 + total %offense from primaries and secondaries: expressed as a decimal) + total flat offense secondaries + Applicable damage from Current gear) / ((Base Offense - Applicable Damage from Current gear) * 105.88 + Applicable damage from current gear)) / ((100/(1 - (Base Offense - Applicable damage from current gear) * (1 + total % offense from primaries and secondaries: expressed as a decimal) + total flat offense + (base offense * .1) + Applicable damage from Current gear) / ((Base offense - Applicable damage from current gear) * 105.88 + Applicable damage from current gear))) - %Crit Chance increase from Buffs and Abilities = Critical chance breakpoint
Applicable damage from current gear is either special or physical damage on gear that you have equipped that you can still examine. Which one to subtract and then re-add depends on which type of damage the character uses.
If the crit damage set of mods you are examining has a crit chance above what the breakpoint is when combined with your character's base crit chance, then it is better than the offense set you were comparing it to as far as total damage output goes. If it is below it, the offense is better. If it is an exact match, then neither is better.
No one really wants to compare sets individually so they leave offense stats on mods out, which is skewed, the range of values should be taken into account that come with calculating the offense and a median value determined. Ignoring them gives lower than the floor value (since every toon has at least one offense primary) which skews the results in favor of offense mods and makes the crit chance breakpoint look higher than it is. I have seen so many people make that mistake, it's not even funny.
I'm a history nerd, not a math nerd, sorry (But peace, love, and respect to all my nerd brothers, sisters, and non-binary siblings) so let me make sure I'm getting this straight: If a character has base 50% crit chance or less, mod for crit damage. If a character has base 50% crit chance or more, mod for offense. Does this change for leaders with abilities that increase crit damage (Boba Fett, Jedi Rey, etc)?
"NicWester;c-1621390" wrote: I'm a history nerd, not a math nerd, sorry (But peace, love, and respect to all my nerd brothers, sisters, and non-binary siblings) so let me make sure I'm getting this straight: If a character has base 50% crit chance or less, mod for crit damage. If a character has base 50% crit chance or more, mod for offense. Does this change for leaders with abilities that increase crit damage (Boba Fett, Jedi Rey, etc)?
Not exactly. If your character will have 75% or more crit chance including mods and composition bonuses (R2, crit chance buff, leader bonus), then mod for crit damage, otherwise mod for offense.
Leader abilities than increase critical damage like Boba Fett will raise the crit chance breakpoint because it will reduce the % damage increase from the crit damage set. instead of it being 222/192 = 1.15 a 15% increase in damage it will be a 272/242 = 1.12 a 12% increase in damage.
Since the Offense set gives roughly an 11% increase in damage, that means the crit chance breakpoint under a Boba Fett lead would be 11/12 = .91, 91% crit chance before you'd want to use a crit damage set under a Boba Fett lead.
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