Forum Discussion

moriopal's avatar
7 years ago

Cognitive Disabilities and Mental Health Disabilities in The Sims 4

Recently, the Gurus have come and told Simmers that they have been thinking about adding disabilities into The Sims 4. I think this is a great step forward in inclusion. There are wide range of kids - and adults - with disabilities who enjoy playing The Sims 4, including myself. Not all of us are interested in giving our Sims-selves disabilities, but I know a large number of us are.

I'd like to give my feedback about how I'd like cognitive disabilities and mental health disabilities to look in the game. My experience here: I am cognitively disabled myself (I am autistic), and I have multiple mental health disabilities. I am a disability justice activist and have worked with several disability rights organizations. I've lived with a range of people with disabilities, including cognitive disabilities, mental health disabilities, physical disabilities, and mental health disabilities. On my college university, I've worked in an Access and Inclusion group to make the campus more accessible, and I run a disability org for students. I have some thoughts about how physical and sensory disabilities would work as well, but it's really not my expertise, so I'll be focusing on cognitive and mental health disabilities.

If cognitive disabilities and mental health disabilities were implemented in the game, here's how I think they might best be handled:


  • The Sims 4 team should consult actual people with disabilities in implementing any new features or mechanics for people with disabilities, and should be careful to present disability in a fully respectful light. By 'consulting actual people', I mean actual people - not our parents, siblings, or organizations that represent us without us. While it would be fine to consult those groups as well, they should first and foremost listen to actual disabled people.
  • Cognitive Disabilities and Mental Health Disabilities should not be treated as game 'traits' - instead, they should be a separate category that can be checked 'on' or 'off'. Many people feel that their disabilities are not *just* 'traits' and widely impact their lives. Additionally, players who want to create disabled sims should not be punished by having a game trait slot removed. (Note: from now on, when I say "game trait", I am referring to the actual mechanic of traits that is currently in the game. If I say "disability trait", I mean an actual trait, symptom, or experience associated with a disability.)
  • Individual cognitive or mental health disabilities should not have discreet options for different disabilities. Players should be able to check a "neurodivergent" box (neurodivergent meaning a person with any kind of cognitive or mental health disability), and from there should be able to select certain disability traits that their Sim presents. There are far too many cognitive and mental health disabilities to include everyone, and many cognitive and mental health disabilities can look different from person to person, even if it's the same condition. Many traits also overlap from condition to condition. This gives people the freedom to build a Sim with a 'brain' that most closely matches what they'd like.
  • Sims maintain their cognitive or mental health disability traits throughout life, and this disability remains in the ghost life stage. Many people with disabilities identify strongly with their disability and would not cure it if they had the choice. It also sends a bad message that a 'good' afterlife would, by necessity, mean someone wasn't disabled. Disabled people can have good (after)lives and be happy not only in spite of their disability but because of it! Of course, players should be able to remove these disability traits through cheats or CAS.
  • Townies should be able to randomly generate with disabilities. This would be a *big deal* for all sorts of people with disabilities playing the game. We hardly ever see ourselves represented, and it might help people feel more self-confident making Sims that look like themselves.


    So, those are my thoughts about the broader implementation of cognitive disabilities. A lot of this also applies to physical disabilities, of course. Next, I want to focus on how something like autism might be implemented within my current dream goal of how this system would work:

  • Like other cognitive disabilities, autism should not be a game trait that someone can choose to add to their character. Instead, you should be able to pick from a range of disability traits that sum up to make your sim have the disability you think is relevant to them
  • There should be more options than simple 'social awkwardness' for autistic-like disability traits, including...
  • Sensory Seeking disability traits and Sensory Avoiding disability traits. You should be able to chose if a sim avoids or seeks certain types of senses, or is neutral to them. (Example: Sim A seeks sound, but avoids taste). This is a heavily simplified version of how sensory sensitivity might work, but a more complex one would likely be very difficult and costly. A sim who seeks sound might get an extra happy moodlet from loud music, but one who avoids taste might get uncomfortable moodlets from certain, randomly generated food items. Alternatively, in reverse, a sim who avoids sound might get an uncomfortable moodlet from loud music nearby, fireworks, or other loud stimuli, and one who seeks taste might get an extra happy moodlet from eating certain foods. A sim who is touch averse might get uncomfortable or angry moodlets when hugged, and a sim that's touch seeking might have increashed wishes for hugs, or might like a weighted blanket. These disability traits should be usable for any sim.
  • 'Stim' or 'Fidgeting' idle animations. Many autistic people, as well as other neurodivergent people, do something called 'stimming'. Most people are familiar with autistic children flapping their hands, this is stimming. However, other things, like clicking pens, rocking back and forth, twirling your hair, or walking on the tips of your toes might be stimming. I think an option to pick from a list of maybe 6 or so common stims would be great. Your sims would be able to do these animations while idle/not doing anything, or maybe when multitasking for something like watching TV or listening to music. Again, any Sim could do these stims/fidgets.
  • There shouldn't be a "socially awkward" game trait, but including some aspects of neurodivergent social interaction would be neat. I'd like to be able to make characters who dislike eye contact, or Sims with a strange sense of humor who's jokes might fall flat with other Sims, especially sims who don't also have the disability trait for humor. Maybe neurodivergent Sims have an easier time building up friendship with other neurodivergent Sims (I've found that this is often the case).
  • Rituals would be a great addition - lots of neurodivergent people like rituals, like doing things in a certain order. I think it would be fun to be able to make a ritualistic Sim (with a randomly generated, but plausible ritual, such as always having a morning routine in a certain order) that has a tense moodlet if it's not fulfilled, and a happy moodlet when it is. This would be relevant for all sorts of Sims, including autistic Sims, Sims with OCD, etc.


    So what does everyone think? I've been thinking about how an autistic Sim would look like for a long time, but I only recently though of a broader system to allow for all sorts of cognitive and mental health disabilities. Do you have a cognitive or mental health disability? How would you like to see yourself in the game? Do you think that it *should* be game traits, or would you prefer a more flexible system like the one I mentioned? Would you prefer not to see it at all? And for simmers without disabilities, do you think you would make Sims with disabilities? Do you like my ideas?
    • @silversg the Grant mentioned back in May about they're finally thinking about adding disabilities
    • Redrogue60's avatar
      Redrogue60
      Seasoned Hotshot
      "Movotti;c-16798531" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16798517" wrote:
      "Movotti;c-16798503" wrote:
      I am disabled, and I do not want disability in my game.
      I use the game to escape my disabilities, not play at them.


      just because you don't want it in your game doesn't mean other people might want it in theirs everyone has a different idea of a utopia.
      And how well have they done so far for not forcing unwanted content on players?
      I hear a lot of complaints about certain things... If they made things to toggle off completely, maybe then there's possibility of things working.
      I'm not so adverse to the concept of things being included, so long as there is the option to toggle them off completely. Or better yet, players who want this sort of content should need to toggle it on, to access it, thereby not forcing anyone at all to have to suffer it.
      It's incredibly rude and thoughtless, and possibly harmful to force people to accept disability into the game. Disabled people are not here for everyone elses entertainment. We are not a toy to entertain.


      I mean you DO want beach word based on your home country of "Down Under" or "Oz" right? Some people don't want a Aussie Beach world but a island beach world..or something.. how would you feel if someone said that about your ideas.
      I would rather a beach world based on Brighton England.
      Or a nice island location, like the Outer Hebrides.
      We already have a tropical location, it's time for something different. Not more of the same poo.



      I agree with Movotti. People with disabilities are not here for our amusement and putting them in a game where Sims are regularly abused by their players I can think of some very offensive things that can come of this and EA games would be responsible for this. I don't honestly think they will risk the media coming down on them.
    • "redrogue60;c-16880109" wrote:
      "Movotti;c-16798531" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16798517" wrote:
      "Movotti;c-16798503" wrote:
      I am disabled, and I do not want disability in my game.
      I use the game to escape my disabilities, not play at them.


      just because you don't want it in your game doesn't mean other people might want it in theirs everyone has a different idea of a utopia.
      And how well have they done so far for not forcing unwanted content on players?
      I hear a lot of complaints about certain things... If they made things to toggle off completely, maybe then there's possibility of things working.
      I'm not so adverse to the concept of things being included, so long as there is the option to toggle them off completely. Or better yet, players who want this sort of content should need to toggle it on, to access it, thereby not forcing anyone at all to have to suffer it.
      It's incredibly rude and thoughtless, and possibly harmful to force people to accept disability into the game. Disabled people are not here for everyone elses entertainment. We are not a toy to entertain.


      I mean you DO want beach word based on your home country of "Down Under" or "Oz" right? Some people don't want a Aussie Beach world but a island beach world..or something.. how would you feel if someone said that about your ideas.
      I would rather a beach world based on Brighton England.
      Or a nice island location, like the Outer Hebrides.
      We already have a tropical location, it's time for something different. Not more of the same poo.



      I agree with Movotti. People with disabilities are not here for our amusement and putting them in a game where Sims are regularly abused by their players I can think of some very offensive things that can come of this and EA games would be responsible for this. I don't honestly think they will risk the media coming down on them.


      Might I point out some people with disabilties feel left out because they can't make a "True" simself without disability. For insrtance both @Masters_In_Simology and I don't like the fact that glasses are a "Mr.Potato Head" fashion accessory. (It's a pain that my simself magically wear contacts when she goes to work-not everyone can wear contacts). Give me a name of one person in history and I can give your their disability-since I have noticed that bascially everyone who "made it big" in history had what we call today disability of sorts. Apperently I discovered recently that the business with Theodore Roosevelt and the bear happened because he was going through a mental breakdown (Can't remember the reason either his wife or his child died)
    • "Cinebar;c-16880244" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880241" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880228" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880155" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880141" wrote:
      Whatever they add they are going to have to do better than they have done in TS4. Example: When I play one of my insane Sims in TS4 and then rotated to a different family I would find him in the parks in the homeless outfit, though he had a job, hanging in parks, sleeping on benches etc. Can you imagine if they add more traits to represent some sort of mental diablity then parks might be filled with our own Sims (like those with the insane trait) in homeless outfits etc. There are so many complaints about Sims in wrong outfits (though supposedly they patch this often) Sims in jobs out of jobs though they are not supposed to drop a job or change jobs, etc. etc. Then there are the spawning issues with Sims some want a toggle to turn off. CL townies, Vampires, Celebs already.... I can't trust them to do any of this right based on what they haven't done right so far.


      if you had notice my previous post-they Sims team has said mental illness unlike the "erratic" (formerly insane) trait wouldn't be a trait.


      How would they make sure a Sim had all the behaviours of that disablity if not a trait? Especially if you were picking which type of disablity you wanted them to have? And how would we know how they would behave if not a trait? What? a list of disablities in CAS, and we pick and choose which type of Sim. I don't know that seems sort of offensive to me to flip through choices. A trait that covers it might be less offensive.


      They have LITERALLY said that mental illness wouldn't be a trait since they felt it would be "inappropriate" I guess I need to find the Tweet that Grant said that in?




      so if you have an issue go talk to Grant on twitter about it..not us.


      I don't have an 'issue'. I simply asked. I wasn't aware of the tweet. I'm not on Twitter and never will be. I was simply asking how they would do it, and thought you might know how they planned to allow us to pick this stuff in CAS.


      @Cinebar Sorry if I was a bit offensive. They didn't actually say how they're planning on doing it. It's something they're trying to figure out. I just hope for the people who don't want it there's a "turn off" function (I personally think there might have to be several "turn off" functions regarding disabilities in the game. Since Grant didn't technically answer when someone asked if a sim could be born with a disability and there's not really any job accidents that could cause a disability).
    • "Sigzy05;c-16880406" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880241" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880228" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880155" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880141" wrote:
      Whatever they add they are going to have to do better than they have done in TS4. Example: When I play one of my insane Sims in TS4 and then rotated to a different family I would find him in the parks in the homeless outfit, though he had a job, hanging in parks, sleeping on benches etc. Can you imagine if they add more traits to represent some sort of mental diablity then parks might be filled with our own Sims (like those with the insane trait) in homeless outfits etc. There are so many complaints about Sims in wrong outfits (though supposedly they patch this often) Sims in jobs out of jobs though they are not supposed to drop a job or change jobs, etc. etc. Then there are the spawning issues with Sims some want a toggle to turn off. CL townies, Vampires, Celebs already.... I can't trust them to do any of this right based on what they haven't done right so far.


      if you had notice my previous post-they Sims team has said mental illness unlike the "erratic" (formerly insane) trait wouldn't be a trait.


      How would they make sure a Sim had all the behaviours of that disablity if not a trait? Especially if you were picking which type of disablity you wanted them to have? And how would we know how they would behave if not a trait? What? a list of disablities in CAS, and we pick and choose which type of Sim. I don't know that seems sort of offensive to me to flip through choices. A trait that covers it might be less offensive.


      They have LITERALLY said that mental illness wouldn't be a trait since they felt it would be "inappropriate" I guess I need to find the Tweet that Grant said that in?




      so if you have an issue go talk to Grant on twitter about it..not us.


      With all due respect, adding psychiatric illnesses to The Sims just doesn't feel right to me. Depression, anxiety, anorexia, bipolar disorder, bulimia, schizophrenia, and other ones really aren't disabilities they are psychiatric illnesses. They are serious diseases which thankfully can be treated or it's symptoms can be controlled through medication or electroconvulsive therapy. Are we going to add those two as well? It just doesn't make sense to me I don't think we should go into the seriousness territory.

      In TS4 vampires can cast halucinations and there's the erratic trait, those are just silly sims things but actually tagging a system to give ours sims real diseases seems inappropriate. Just saying. But who am I really.


      What do disabilities have in common? They prevent a person from living a normal life right?


      Mental illness/mental health also prevent people from living a normal life. Hence why its classified as a disability. Some people think the Schiz folks are a Mad Hatters and reap people if not themselves. Depression affects a person-something they might enjoy once might annoy them a lot later and they don't do it anymore (for example in a mental health first aid training video the depressed person literally gave away their hockey equipment after not going to hockey practice. They might think the world would be better off without them (George Bailey during the main events of "Its a Wonderful Life".). There's is even something called "Seasonal affective disorder" (SAD) which means during winter time a person gets depressed). Eating disorders, as well as Anxiety and Autism are also mental illness. I have (anxiety, Austim and a minor depression undigonazed) plus developmental disability . Might I point out that mental illness people aren't the only ones who take meds to "appear normal"?
    • "Sigzy05;c-16880447" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880428" wrote:
      "Sigzy05;c-16880406" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880241" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880228" wrote:
      "MadameLee;c-16880155" wrote:
      "Cinebar;c-16880141" wrote:
      Whatever they add they are going to have to do better than they have done in TS4. Example: When I play one of my insane Sims in TS4 and then rotated to a different family I would find him in the parks in the homeless outfit, though he had a job, hanging in parks, sleeping on benches etc. Can you imagine if they add more traits to represent some sort of mental diablity then parks might be filled with our own Sims (like those with the insane trait) in homeless outfits etc. There are so many complaints about Sims in wrong outfits (though supposedly they patch this often) Sims in jobs out of jobs though they are not supposed to drop a job or change jobs, etc. etc. Then there are the spawning issues with Sims some want a toggle to turn off. CL townies, Vampires, Celebs already.... I can't trust them to do any of this right based on what they haven't done right so far.


      if you had notice my previous post-they Sims team has said mental illness unlike the "erratic" (formerly insane) trait wouldn't be a trait.


      How would they make sure a Sim had all the behaviours of that disablity if not a trait? Especially if you were picking which type of disablity you wanted them to have? And how would we know how they would behave if not a trait? What? a list of disablities in CAS, and we pick and choose which type of Sim. I don't know that seems sort of offensive to me to flip through choices. A trait that covers it might be less offensive.


      They have LITERALLY said that mental illness wouldn't be a trait since they felt it would be "inappropriate" I guess I need to find the Tweet that Grant said that in?




      so if you have an issue go talk to Grant on twitter about it..not us.


      With all due respect, adding psychiatric illnesses to The Sims just doesn't feel right to me. Depression, anxiety, anorexia, bipolar disorder, bulimia, schizophrenia, and other ones really aren't disabilities they are psychiatric illnesses. They are serious diseases which thankfully can be treated or it's symptoms can be controlled through medication or electroconvulsive therapy. Are we going to add those two as well? It just doesn't make sense to me I don't think we should go into the seriousness territory.

      In TS4 vampires can cast halucinations and there's the erratic trait, those are just silly sims things but actually tagging a system to give ours sims real diseases seems inappropriate. Just saying. But who am I really.


      What do disabilities have in common? They prevent a person from living a normal life right?


      Mental illness/mental health also prevent people from living a normal life. Hence why its classified as a disability. Some people think the Schiz folks are a Mad Hatters and reap people if not themselves. Depression affects a person-something they might enjoy once might annoy them a lot later and they don't do it anymore (for example in a mental health first aid training video the depressed person literally gave away their hockey equipment after not going to hockey practice. They might think the world would be better off without them (George Bailey during the main events of "Its a Wonderful Life".). There's is even something called "Seasonal affective disorder" (SAD) which means during winter time a person gets depressed). Eating disorders, as well as Anxiety and Autism are also mental illness. I have (anxiety, Austim and a minor depression undigonazed) plus developmental disability . Might I point out that mental illness people aren't the only ones who take meds to "appear normal"?


      Well, depression goes way beyond just that, and my references don't come from movies or first aid videos I have a bit more insight on the specifics, how it doesn't matter because it would go into the personal territory and this is a public forum, but I understand how you would say that it is similar to a disability, albeit that disabilities can't be treated with medication, not directly anyways, you can't enable your brain to produce chemicals and hormones to suppress or change a dna gene or a physical malformation but you can alter the neurotransmitters that might be affecting parts of your brain.

      But I'd like to point out that no one takes medication to look normal. They take medication because they want better life quality.


      I took back in 2014 I rook in my program (and everyone including the leaders suffer from mental health-Dane who is "one of the staff" according to another one actually has the Schiz..) Mental Health First Aid and this is what I learned

      ALGEE

      Assess Risk of Harm (to oneself or others
      Listen Non-Judgmentally
      Give Information
      Encourage Professional help
      Encourage self-help and other strategies

      We looked at signs of various mental illness and it's was stated many times that one might be diganoized as another like I think it's bipolar is sometimes digaonized as depression since some of the symptoms are simliar. I take medication so I can function like everyone else-without a certain meds which normally help people prevent pregnancy-it helps me control the other pregnancy-making business other words I would have never or rarely ending "Aunt Flo" visit. I'm not exactly sure why I take the other two-but I know why I talk the last one.
    • Folks, I'm locking this thread now. We've had a few conversations about disabilities (of all sorts) on the forums, and we don't need to bring back another one, especially as this conversation is starting to veer into territory about our personal lives far too much - a lot of information we're getting into isn't something we should be sharing on the forums. If you want to discuss disabilities and note that you have lived experiences with them, that's fine but keep it at a very high level, let's please not get into specifics on medication we take, side effects, the experiences we've had related the disabilities. etc.