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leo3487's avatar
leo3487
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago

Non binary pronouns and language... and how will be launched at non english

reading the interview here
https://simscommunity.info/2022/01/19/customizable-pronouns-importance-in-the-sims-4/

and going to the intervention of Verónica Morales, there is a thing I cant understand well, as at Inside Maxis was said at non english will be ready later, and now this:

It has to be treated and broken down to the specifics of the language because culture regulations and the language itself have a great impact on how this topic is handled in the different regions. Linguistically speaking all different sides of the spectrum are represented in the languages The Sims are localized into. Some languages have an officially accepted and ready to use non-binary pronouns. For instance Swedish – they have “hen” which would work. For other terittories however the problems are not being included in the dictionaries which proves that languages are evolving and accepting of this new language which is changing over time. In case for French with the pronoun “yel” which was recently accepted in their dictionary.
Some countries such as Germany, Spain and Brazil – communities have started using non-binary grammar in the syntax systems. These are not officially accepted but they are being used by a part of the society and they feel comfortable with this grammar and system and syntax systems.
On other side of the spectrum we have terittories with strict regulations and laws which the use of non binary pronouns can be quite challenging. It’s important to point out the reachness of the languages and for those teritorries which face some challenges there are some ways to resolve these. For instance we can use the passive voice in order to avoid referrencing the subject. Instead of saying “they sent me a letter yesterday” you can say “the letter was sent yesterday”.


Then something I no understand well:
Non binary pronouns will be deployed at certain language only when be officially accepted by language regulators?

28 Replies

  • "Metior_Ice;c-18041622" wrote:
    This reminds me of the difference between mermaid, merman, and merperson. The game uses the term mermaid for the occult, but that is 100% female and doesn't represent the opposite gender. The term mermaid literally means "Maiden of the Sea" because "Mer" is a prefix that modifies the root "Maiden."

    I know that my non-trans and binary sims do not identify as women or maidens. I'm 100% for non-binary representation, but if they choose to use non-binary language, they should actually use non-binary/ gender neutral terms. In this case, "Mermaid" is not an accurate representation of "Merfolk", "Merpeople", or "Merperson".

    My point is that, if you choose to represent a group, you should use more accurate language if you care about achieving equal representation for that group.

    Right now, they call the "Mermadic" or "Mer" occult "Mermaid" in CAS, but not every Mer is a mermaid.


    I call them Mersims in the Sims, or Merfolk generally.
  • @leo3487 The US doesn't have one of those national language bureaus like France does, but here's the closest we've got-- (it is not run by activists)

    Merriam-Webster dictionary
    Definitions #3c and 3d under the entry for "they"
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

    c —used to refer to a single person whose gender is intentionally not revealed
    A student was found with a knife and a BB gun in their backpack Monday, district spokeswoman Renee Murphy confirmed. The student, whose name has not been released, will be disciplined according to district policies, Murphy said. They also face charges from outside law enforcement, she said.

    d —used to refer to a single person whose gender identity is nonbinary (see NONBINARY sense c)
    I knew certain things about … the person I was interviewing.… They had adopted their gender-neutral name a few years ago, when they began to consciously identify as nonbinary—that is, neither male nor female. They were in their late 20s, working as an event planner, applying to graduate school.


  • "Bowtruckler;c-18042625" wrote:
    I'm just worried that Maxis are spending all this energy on something that only matters to a tiny minority of people, I would prefer Maxis to fix Bugs! For example, let me build a Rocket Ship! Basic stuff like that....

    If you stripped away anything that only appeals to a small minority, The Sims would be a less rich, certainly less diverse game. I'm in that tiny minority, and I'm relieved my use of they/them is getting mainstream acknowledgement, and being regarded as less freakish.

    And I'm certain their bug-fixing team aren't all tied up in this, expending 'all this energy'. I imagine this is almost entirely work for the translation/localisation team. The team have never been all that quick with bug fixes, but that's not anything to do with gender.
  • leo3487's avatar
    leo3487
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    "baniduhaine;c-18043287" wrote:
    > @leo3487 said:
    > if well at Spain officially no recognize non binary language, at Argentina we recognize it, even allow at official documents

    I'm curious, is "elle" the one in Argentina or another? I'm familiar with "elle" and words being ended in -e even if it was only briefly recognized.


    Sincerelly, no heard Elle but yes Elles

    Ellos (They - all male, or default for mixed group)
    Ellas (They - all female)
    Elles (They - mixed or to no implies all group are males or females)

    In bold, the non official pronoun for 3rd person plural, used here except for anti-rights people and people than no accept the new terms of "lenguaje inclusivo"
  • leo3487's avatar
    leo3487
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    "baniduhaine;c-18043746" wrote:
    > @leo3487 said:
    > Sincerelly, no heard Elle but yes Elles
    >
    > Ellos (They - all male, or default for mixed group)
    > Ellas (They - all female)
    > Elles (They - mixed or to no implies all group are males or females)
    >
    > In bold, the non official pronoun for 3rd person plural, used here except for anti-rights people and people than no accept the new terms of "lenguaje inclusivo"

    Ah, I'd think elle was singular for elles then, maybe. It feels perfectly intuitive to be honest, considering how trying to dance around saying any -o/-a tends to end in things like "que se ". May or may not be different over there since I know Spanish has different dialects. But in any case I love the idea of a place already accepting that after the whole recognized-then-unrecognized debacle with elle. :/


    Sorry, in fact yes, elle is singular for elles. But I no heard it often
    And as I said, non oficially recognized by RAE, but at Argentina is allowed its use
  • LadyKyn's avatar
    LadyKyn
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    "Bowtruckler;c-18042625" wrote:
    I'm just worried that Maxis are spending all this energy on something that only matters to a tiny minority of people, I would prefer Maxis to fix Bugs! For example, let me build a Rocket Ship! Basic stuff like that....


    It matters a lot. <3

    If everyone had such a linear line of thinking there would barely be much representation. Only instalment of this game that has strived in making it where many can represent themselves. (There's not a lot of games like that.)

    Much as I've enjoyed earlier Sims games, there was a heavy lack representation when you want to make a character like you or at least close to you. The beginning of this game had such a lack of afro-textured hairs is was sad and pitiful same with the varying skin tones. If people didn't speak up we wouldn't have the things we have now.

    Probably wouldn't have bothered with this game anymore if I had to sole rely on CC creators to be making my textured hairstyle and skin tone. :*
  • "Benjamilian;c-18043218" wrote:
    "Bowtruckler;c-18042625" wrote:
    I'm just worried that Maxis are spending all this energy on something that only matters to a tiny minority of people, I would prefer Maxis to fix Bugs! For example, let me build a Rocket Ship! Basic stuff like that....

    If you stripped away anything that only appeals to a small minority, The Sims would be a less rich, certainly less diverse game. I'm in that tiny minority, and I'm relieved my use of they/them is getting mainstream acknowledgement, and being regarded as less freakish.

    And I'm certain their bug-fixing team aren't all tied up in this, expending 'all this energy'. I imagine this is almost entirely work for the translation/localisation team. The team have never been all that quick with bug fixes, but that's not anything to do with gender.


    Who wants to bet that this inclusion will end up broken, too?
  • leo3487's avatar
    leo3487
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    "baniduhaine;c-18043816" wrote:
    "leo3487;c-18043758" wrote:

    Sorry, in fact yes, elle is singular for elles. But I no heard it often
    And as I said, non oficially recognized by RAE, but at Argentina is allowed its use


    Ah, nice! Good to see at least some places accept its use more openly. I don't doubt it could gain traction in PR over time, though for as long as I remember I've seen inclusivity with the x's and @'s. Gives a hope for the future to know the elle and -e's are accepted elsewhere already, even if not by higher language authorities.



    Because it, I know at english (language) neutral pronouns already is aproved and appear at dictionaries and encyclopedia (Wikipedia no count), and Gurus will start with english.
    Then urge find official words about what will do with other languages, if is only a technical difficult and is just time to do it, or if really need neutral pronouns be officially aproved to implement them

    In other words and speaking for spanish version (TS4 has not latam version, we also use spanish version, unlike TS3), The Sims team only will implement neutral/non-binary pronouns when Real Academia Española accept it?

    I really need an official word about it

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