"jackjack_k;c-16358964" wrote:
"@DeservedCriticism;c-16358873" wrote:
@jackjack_k Two things:
1) Why do you treat this like a competition to be less bad? I name a problem with Sims 4, and you immediately start criticizing Sims 3. Why? Just because the other games have lowpoints does NOT absolve Sims 4 of any problems. BOTH are entirely capable of being guilty of the same mistakes. I even touched on this and criticized both Daredevil and Evil traits in Sims 3 for not actually providing new content, but rather just renaming the text names for interactions. The problem is we're at a new Sims game and that problem has worsened significantly instead of gone away. Another great example is that the recycling of the Vet career reminds me of Island Paradise: a pack released that was buggy and nonfunctional, and EA does nothing to fix it. It doesn't excuse the Vet career, it just makes it more outrageous that such practices continue. And no, Generations was not my favorite pack and you touch on why that is.
I have no desire to go into detail of every flaw in past games though because this isn't about them, this is about Sims 4. Highlighting those past flaws is of limited use because those games are done, whereas Sims 4 can still benefit from feedback. The only interest I have in mentioning past games is to showcase that the frequency of recycling has absolutely spiked.
There's even this ridiculous double standard here:
The Sims 3 literally sold content twice (Hot Tubs, Washers, Dryers to name a few)
You mean the ones with vastly different designs? In packs where there was enough raw content for this to be irrelevant? By your logic here, Sims 4 is reselling us content every time they make a new bed variant; those were new variants, not direct copies. You don't see me complaining about new bed designs because they're new; yes I would complain if a bed had the exact same cell and design but got re-released with slightly different colors, though.
Even the presentation is different: Late Night releases a new type of Hot Tub, and no it's not blasted all over the streams and trailers as though the hot tub is somehow a "major" selling point of the pack. They new it was minor and kept it as such. The same cannot be said for these Food stands, as making "new cultural food" is practically becoming a running gag at this point. They've done this thrice now. Heck, even the recycled bear costume and recycled Superllama costume were used in pack previews and streams with the devs saying "look how neat this is!" There's a very different tone in the execution of recycled content: when past games did it, they didn't draw attention to it because the devs understood recycled content isn't exciting. Here? There's basically a 50-50 shot the recycled content will be presented as a major feature of the pack.
What's the difference between that and reusing Food Vendors or Market tables? Oh I know, EA basically included them for free with JA.
So Sims 3 releases several hot tubs with different aesthetic designs in multiple packs and this is "reselling old content," but if Jungle Adventures reuses food stalls, that's "including them for free?" Yeah seems legit, makes perfect sense.
2) I've said this before, but your entire post is just statements with bold claims, but zero support, arguments or evidence. You absolutely have a habit of this:
"For C&D, the Vet Career is nothing like the Retail or Restaurant career." *changes subject*
"What's the difference between that and reusing Food Vendors or Market tables? Oh I know, EA basically included them for free with JA. Considering it has numerous gameplay items, more than any Game Pack before." *changes subject*
"And the market stalls in CL and C&D still offer new content." *changes subject*
You've not addressed a word of what I said or done anything to even support your own stances. I don't know what you're expecting to come of your post since you leave people with nothing to discuss. You haven't refuted a word of any of my arguments. You've just said "the vet career is completely different" and that's your argument I guess, but that's not really an argument because you've done nothing to point out how it's different.
What I'm saying and what I'm arguing is this: why does the EXACT bug that pops up in GTW retail workers resurface in the Vet career? They've had three years to fix the retail system and they haven't done it. On top of that, they're ready and willing to copypaste it despite knowing the system is heavily flawed. It's lazy, it results in sub-par buggy content, and it's downright insulting to see such content repeated with zero improvements or even bug fixes. Why on earth should I give them my money for repeat content that doesn't even work right? That's like if I went to an auto dealer and they sold me a lemon of a Red Honda Accord that has troubles with starting the engine, and then one year later when I'm sick of dealing with it, I go back to the same auto dealer and they greet me with "so I heard you were unsatisfied with your Red Honda Accord with engine problems. Wanna buy a BLUE Honda Accord with engine problems?" No, no I don't. No one in their right mind would go back to that same auto dealer, nor would they trust to purchase another Honda Accord from them. That sums up my stance with this game wonderfully: I have opted out of multiple packs specifically because they recycle content to function as main features, and I don't think that warrants a purchase.
I would have absolutely nothing against them recycling that retail system if it were good, stable, and saw regular improvements each time it was reused. This is not the case. You touched on the professions system of Sims 3 and yeah, there's your difference: that system worked (individual careers such as Ghost Hunter had individual bugs, yes, but there was no universal bug that was a guarentee to afflict all active careers), this system doesn't. The quality of retail system that we got in 2017 is more or less the same as the quality of the system in 2015. We are not moving forward, we're going in circles, and that's a severe problem. It makes the game look and feel like a blatant cash-grab too.
How many times is the recycling of content too much? Food stalls have been used three times now, with the concept of "new recipes" as a major feature having been used four times. I do not care about the cheaply drawn food on my Sim's plate. It's completely irrelevant to me, and yet it's four times now they've tried to sell this stuff to us as a major feature. That's my concern: that this is just gonna continue, and that recycled content is actually behind the steering wheel with this game, directly playing a large role in what packs get made and what packs get skipped.
1) It's not a comparison to be "less bad" because The Sims 4 isn't recycling any content that takes up slots for new content. This is how DLC works for any game. It's only an issue if Jungle Adventure, for example, completely got rid of the jungle area, and just gave us a new world with the same content. Instead, it took what it already built, re-used some of it, and then gave us a whole new GP over the top.
You can't also "recycle a vet career" when we didn't have a Vet career. They reused the Business system, but The Sims 1 - 3 all reused systems too. If the new content was "run a vet store" then I could understand the backlash. But a Vet operates nothing like Retail, apart from the fact it shares a UI. DLC for games reuses existing content and builds upon it. A lot of what you're saying was "recycled" was built into the base game coding.
The systems that the past games recycled
functioned as intended. This one does not, and yet they recycle it. That is inexcuseable to me. I expect Sims 3 to recycle it's coding for active careers because that coding works. However, if Island Paradise is a buggy mess and they try to release another tropical island pack with the exact same flaws, yes I'm gonna be outraged.
The Sims 4 isn't recycling any content that takes up slots for new content.
And what makes you say this?
Best case scenario, the budget was never going to allow for fully new features anyways, and this is a disappointing attempt to try and provide "more" content without providing anymore at all. Worst case scenario, it is absolutely playing a role in deciding what packs come next because they purposefully steer towards concepts that are easy to craft with the help of recycled content. Either way, content demands time and money, and they've somehow decided we need four different packs that demand they make new food stall colors and food plates, as well as three packs using a retail system where (highly similar) bugs have popped up with all three.
2) The point here is, they didn't just sell you new laundry designs, they literally made you pay for the "development" of laundry twice. At most, those new laundry items on the store should have been a $3 DLC pack (16 items). Instead they make you pay $10, because they're making you pay for the development of Laundry twice. Adding Laundry into new Expansions is fine. But asking $10 alone for Laundry even if you already paid for it previously, is a stretch. EA should have just bundled those new designs into EPs/SPs or made them much cheaper than $10. At $10, you're past the point of "oh hey, here's some new laundry designs" to "hey please pay for Laundry twice".
No they didn't, they copy-pasted the coding of laundry,
and it worked. <----That right there is your key difference. I am not unconditionally against the practice of recycling content, I am against recycling content when they recycle from systems that don't work. The vet career absolutely did this, and it has me questioning the motivation for other recycled content. After all,
I'm pretty sure I could fill an entire queue of Sim interactions with pure social interactions, with every single interaction on the list having a unique name, but ALL of them having an identical animation and audio clip attached to them while the majority of those also have identical functions.I already explained this in my last post: I don't get up in arms at University Life for recycling laundry because University Life neither advertised it as a major feature, nor were they lazily copying a highly busted and highly broken system. No, someone probably made the decision that laundry is relevant enough to include in a university pack, so they included it to add to the theme. Doing so was never intended to be a major feature though and was not advertised as such. Here, they make sure to tell us about that new cultural food, tie it into the aspiration, and include it in trailers and preview streams.
3) The food stalls didn't take up new gameplay slots, so again, the faux outrage trend is for teenagers who just discovered Twitter, not for those who can put 2 and 2 together and realise they didn't sacrifice new gameplay, to reintroduce old gameplay. The market without the Food stands would have been less interesting, and therefore is a welcome addition to Jungle Adventure. They also sell new foods, not existing foods. And for those who like Cooking, adds a huge new range of foods to cook. It can also be used in Dine Out, and a brand new type of Restaurant can be made also. There's substantial new content, considering it's recycled, and at this point doesn't even take up development time of the pack.
As I said, I wouldn't take offense to the food stalls if they were not presented as a major feature of the pack and if recycling content was not so frequent with this game. It is however, and thus I'm left questioning how much sway the potential for recycling content has in decision-making.
4) How about you point out how the Retail and the Vet system is the same? Considering you played C&D on a friends computer, perhaps you may have not actually played it for yourself. Tell me what is the same? All I see is a UI being reused.
I did explain that. Twice infact:
Retail has a bad habit/bug where workers do not do anything. They'll sit outside on their phone, stand around, and generally just not do their job. Cats and Dogs releases and lo and behold, there are both gameplay videos and bug reports showcasing how hired workers have a terrific habit of standing around doing nothing. Three years this bug has existed and three years they do nothing to fix it. Despite this, they even have the audacity to copypaste that buggy system into a new pack and demand $40 for it. That's outrageous to me.
6) What's broken with the Retail system or Vet system. They work fine for me. Dine Out has an issue with Sims getting up to chat with each other, but the Vet career and Retail career work fine for me. You don't even talk about the bug in question.
As I said, I've stated this multiple times. I can quote you in both the main post and the post responding to you where I commented on the exact bug I mentioned just above:
"Get to Work released, people tried out retail, it was terrible. Complaints included that both customers and employees seemed to do nothing at all, basic interactions with customers took ages, and employees just simply weren't doing their job. Fast forward to today, they still haven't patched or repaired that system in any way whatsoever. That portion of Get To Work remains broken and an absolute chore to participate in."
"Browse the forums and sure enough, you'll see very familiar complaints. "My Vet employees aren't working! They just stand around!" This is the exact same issue. They copy-pasted the retail system, bugs and all. They absolutely should've known this would've happened. This is a case where either they directly knew this might happen, or they should've known and the idea that they couldn't anticipate this is ridiculous."
"What I'm saying and what I'm arguing is this: why does the EXACT bug that pops up in GTW retail workers resurface in the Vet career? They've had three years to fix the retail system and they haven't done it."
If you're going to disagree with me, please do me a favor and actually bother reading my posts to see what my stance is and
why I feel that way. Otherwise, the conversation goes in circles for both of us.
7) The Profession system did have bugs though. There's actually a bug where if your Profession requires use of a Rabbit Hole, it only works in worlds that don't have combo rabbit holes (which every world does beyond Ambitions). So if you're playing with Bridgeport or later, Professions don't work unless you replace the combo rabbit holes with base game ones. Also, that basically means that unless you're willing to use base game rabbit holes, the whole Profession System is broken. EA became aware of this, and basically made sure that future professions didn't require Rabbit holes. Nice of them eh?
That is a bug related to combo rabbit holes, NOT the professions. The professions came first and they did not anticipate such an error. I think that one was patched too. This is completely different because they both didn't have any reason that they should've absolutely known for certain that bug would arise, and they made efforts to fix it. (and if they didn't and I'm mistaken, then yes that sucks, I agree it's horrible, and here we are again with me asking you why you think the flaws of Sims 3 somehow excuse flaws of Sims 4. I want them both fixed, not neither) The Vet career is a case where they recycled the Retail to Dine Out, similar complaints about bugs and quirks in the system arose, and did they fix it? No, they just quietly copy-pasted the system again to the Vet Career. They absolutely should've known, they absolutely had reason to suspect this would happen, they absolutely could've avoided it, and yet they did nothing. They cut corners and resold old content, bugs included.
8) They're not selling Food stalls a major feature. That's full of it even for you. They are shown for less than a second in the announcement trailer. Literally blink and you miss it. It's also not even mentioned on the Origin page as more than a blip.
That seems to be your issue. You get focused too much on one thing, that it clouds your vision for everything else that's going on.
Jungle Adventure literally came with more Build/Buy and CAS items, and also more unique gameplay items (if we include the gameplay items found in BuyDebug from the Jungle/Temple) than a whole Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion (which is when EA made EPs $40 btw) for $20, and you're coming in with "um we've had these 3 things before".
Obviously, Bon Voyage has more on it's side with Gameplay features, but that's quite a feat for $20 and all you can think about is the smallest, most unnecessary things ever and making them out to be the worst thing in gaming history.
Again, I do not know your obsession with comparing the titles in such a way that past flaws excuse future ones. Improvement over time is expected. I do not look back at Sims 1 and get outraged over it's low bed count; it was a different time with more limited tech, and if anything it'd be outrageous if 2, 3 or 4 somehow delivered the same content count despite advances in tech.
The pure count of build mode objects is a flawed measurement too, as City Living padded it's catalog with wall paintings while Cats and Dogs used wall decals. What percent of those objects serve a new function or focus solely on fleshing out a new aesthetic? The pack has a very unique aesthetic going for it, but if it has one bed matching that aesthetic and 40 random paintings, it can still be disappointing.
As for the reference to the food stalls being major content, it gets incorporated into the aspirations, the curse cures, one of the new skills, and it's one of the only things to do in the town. The town is basically a bar and some food stalls. If you were to ask people to list five main features of this pack, I promise you you'll find people listing those food stalls.
