Retroactive Orientation Updates For Premade Queer Couples

"Horrorgirl6;c-18315812" wrote:

"EneroDesyembre;c-18315669" wrote:

"friendlysimmers;c-18315527" wrote:
if i read this post correctly i respect the original poster in the subject but speaking as a gamer and player of the sims it also depends on what kind of story the player wants to create and when it comes to the sims4 as players we are all diffrent

Which is exactly why I personally want changes like this. What might be a harmless and fun interaction to a straight or bi player can be pretty damaging and actively exclusionary to somebody who isn't attracted to the opposite sex.


Especially the ones made to include people like you.

I am sorry but this sounds to me , you are trying to control or persuade what people do in their games. I understand if you don't like how some people are playing it still games.Just ignore it , the people who play it in a way that makes you upset. The sims were about playing our stories or play the characters in are way. I am not against EA making update . The goal of the game was never about making players to play a certain way .It was giving players a sandbox and stories that they started

Can you give examples as to how something like this will negatively impact the freedom of simmers? Can anybody even?

Speaking as a cis, bisexual male here. I'm fine if they went back and updated sims' preferences. I think it'd be a waste of time, since this game is drowning in broken/incomplete/abandoned features and efforts would be better spent those instead of comparatively unimportant changes that don't add anything new into the game... Which they're already doing with the refreshes. But it doesn't hurt me or my gameplay, it can mean a lot to some people, and it's easy to undo any changes I disagree with. Unlike with the refreshes, where I have to download new Goths and Calientes from the Gallery to replace their de-yassified usurpers.

At the same time, The Sims 4 has always made it very clear that certain sims are LGBT. They promote them, often making them the lead characters in marketing or putting them on box covers. Couples have very clear attractions to one another, through gameplay or through biographies. No real harm in adding them, aside from making it annoying for people who want to change sims to fit their headcanons, and now have to change a dozen sims each time they start a save file. But I'm not yearning for these changes, nor do I think it's necessary, when the game and marketing have gone out of their way to make it abundantly clear that these sims are LGBT and attracted to such and such. If we get this overhaul, sure. If not, I'm also cool with that. While I can see why it's important for you and others, it's just unnecessary to me.

I also don't feel it's necessary to define certain sims. I don't care if Brent and Brant are gay, if one or both of them is bisexual, or what - their explicit relationship is way more important. They're explicitly mlm. And while adding some lore on their identities is neat, I prefer them leaving it open to individual interpretation, while still keeping them visibly queer. It leaves more room to play with them. Plus with many of these sims, you can read between the lines and get a very good idea on what the intention is supposed to be with them. Though some sims could use some clarification, like Morgyn Ember - whose gender identity isn't clear, so you have no idea who or what they're supposed to be, beyond the 2023 patch that established them as nonbinary.

Full disclosure: I edit preferences I disagree with. Molly Prescot is an aromantic bisexual in my game, while her mother is a late-in-life lesbian. Dani Davila is a heterosexual transfemme in my game because she kept making moves on my male sim, while ignoring my female sims. I didn't even know she had a girlfriend in-game until this evening. I would hate having to change a bunch of sims' sexualities to what I want, if the devs went about and changed them to stuff that goes against my vision. It already bugs me when I have to change a sim's canon sexuality to fit my headcanon.

It's a bit discouraging for me, as a bisexual, to see a gay/straight sim and have the game go, "no, they're explicitly this sexuality and not interested in changing that." That's why Horse Ranch was neat - LGBT sims had established sexualities, but were willing to explore, so you could change their identities to whatever you feel because it's more fluid. But again, it's just a box I can change if I feel strongly enough about it, like I did with Molly.

So yeah. tl;dr: These sims are explicitly queer, I feel like they don't need specific labels to establish them. In fact, establishing specifics can go against player creativity. Though considering the change amounts to a couple of box tics that can be changed at the individual player's discretion, going through with the change is just slightly inconvenient at worst.

"EneroDesyembre;c-18315479" wrote:

Idk honestly I just felt like they should be. it would be pretty cool for, you know, the first same sex couple in ts4 to specifically be gay. Having them by default not reciprocate romantic interactions with female sims prevents the unfortunate homophobic implications of "meeting the right woman magically fixing a man's same sex attraction", unless the player themself makes them explicitly bisexual in which case they either do so because they themself are bisexual or because of other reasons that will become quickly apparent if they aren't.

Not trying to be rude or anything. I get where you're coming from with this and I think it's totally valid to want to respect their identities. But I do feel like there's an unintentional element of bisexual stereotyping in that line of thinking. Like being attracted to women makes the sims less LGBT, or more likely to cheat on their partner. I absolutely don't think you're biphobic. I think you're a nice, caring and respectful person. But I just felt that this needed to be mentioned, because it could easily be taken in the wrong way.

"Gordy;c-18315930" wrote:

Not trying to be rude or anything. I get where you're coming from with this and I think it's totally valid to want to respect their identities. But I do feel like there's an unintentional element of bisexual stereotyping in that line of thinking. Like being attracted to women makes the sims less LGBT, or more likely to cheat on their partner. I absolutely don't think you're biphobic. I think you're a nice, caring and respectful person. But I just felt that this needed to be mentioned, because it could easily be taken in the wrong way.

I knew the risks of asking something like this alienating bi or pan players and tried to be as respectful as possible so I'm sorry if anything I say hurts or invalidates you or other people.

Bisexual people and sims aren't any less queer if you compare them to lesbian or gay ones just because they can love somebody of the opposite gender as well.

There is however something about seeing that the only queer male characters in games and other media are also ones that are interested in the opposite gender that to me, as a gay man, communicates that the only acceptable way I and any other man like me can exist within anything is if we were also able to at the drop of a hat sexually reproduce in order to "contribute" to society. This isn't to devalue bi men but to point out that our shared attraction to the same gender is seen as something threatening that people would rather either treat as a mutable and optional thing for cishet men or as an exotic incomprehensible thing for women. The first part is true for most popular role playing games in the past decade (at least the ones that even bother with having queer characters either as romantic options or just npcs in general).

As for the second part... Since the sims as a series has a playerbase that skews heavily towards women and since there are dozens of playstyles and challenges that center around having their sims go through uncountable amounts of cisgender heterosexual female pregnancy with essentially any male sim they can get their hands on, I'd at least like a measure that semi permanently prevents them from reducing the heckings into breeding fodder. Women can already be creepy about gay men online and irl that I'd rather not have to deal with that when interacting with other simmers that have even unintentionally done that.

"EneroDesyembre;c-18315915" wrote:

"CAPTAIN_NXR7;c-18315764" wrote:

So here’s my question: Do you think it’s fair for all premades to get an orientation update or should this retroactive update only apply to same sex attracted couples?

Why do you keep asking this? Are you doing it to open the possibility of including asexual or aromantic premades, or are you just asking this to preserve the feelings of heterosexual players and people who are literally catered to on every square inch of this game, all media, and the world itself? Are the emotions of people who never have had to fight for their right to love and be seen more important than people who are still emerging in a world that is actively hostile towards them? Will retroactively including strictly heterosexual sims give the people who never had to worry about their lives and relationships being threatened by groups of people actively sabotaging their identity and cultures be "inclusive" for you?

Are the lives and mere existence of cisgender people being heterosexual threatened in the real world, in a way that even remotely justifies wanting them to be included within something like what I am suggesting? What is it that really drives you to want "heterosexual representation" within queer representation, really, other than to plausibly pretend that heterosexual people have never been included in anything because they weren't available in one game franchise of millions that dared to not have heterosexual people as the default? Is the world you live in so devoid of any empowering strictly heterosexual figures that you have to resort to fiction in order to even feel like a real person?

I am asking for queer inclusion, if that comes at the cost of the fragile minds and feelings of people that are both afraid that their heterosexual sims might not be or those that are subconsciously afraid of having undeniably queer characters because of their unconscious biases then so be it.

The goal of my suggestion wasn't to pretend heterosexual simmers and sims aren't real, the goal was to make sure they can't pretend their actions are merely neutral ones that suggest nothing of their own ideas and actions. You can still let the heckings flirt and fall in love with women, but not in a way that will be possible unless you make the conscious decision to make it something plausible for them to do. Nothing will stop you, nothing will control you, other than your own guilt for intentionally doing so if you yourself are not gay, bi or pan and know full well what enabling it will imply.

I appreciate what you’re saying. There’s this famous quote and I’m not even sure who the original author is, but it goes something like this:

”Never pass judgment or put anger on someone too harshly and too quickly, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about.” ~ And then something something about being kind.

I’m looking at this potential retroactive update purely from an objective point of view. I’m not biased, there’s no emotion attached to this, I’m only thinking in terms of user experience and what would make sense in order to satisfy as many players as possible with the tools that are currently available. Game devs would have to consider every option. Making the right choice is incredibly challenging given how diverse the simming community is. I think that having discussions like these is healthy and could be helpful moving forward.

That said, I personally do not believe it is reasonable to ask for a “LGTB +” household update and not consider so called “heterosexual” households purely out of spite; “The heterosexual player base never suffered the way the LGTB+ player base has suffered, therefore they do not deserve this potential update as much as I do.”

That kind of generalization and spiteful attitude towards a certain group of people is what causes conflict in an already divided community. It’s rather unnecessary. ( see famous quote above).

Why can’t all households get fair treatment regardless of their sexual orientation? We’re all people. We all play this game for our entertainment. We all paid for it. If the reason not to do this is due to technical limitations, or something other than the “straight arrows already have everything” - rhetoric, well, that’s fair enough. I rest my case.

"EneroDesyembre;c-18315916" wrote:

"Horrorgirl6;c-18315812" wrote:

"EneroDesyembre;c-18315669" wrote:

"friendlysimmers;c-18315527" wrote:
if i read this post correctly i respect the original poster in the subject but speaking as a gamer and player of the sims it also depends on what kind of story the player wants to create and when it comes to the sims4 as players we are all diffrent

Which is exactly why I personally want changes like this. What might be a harmless and fun interaction to a straight or bi player can be pretty damaging and actively exclusionary to somebody who isn't attracted to the opposite sex.


Especially the ones made to include people like you.

I am sorry but this sounds to me , you are trying to control or persuade what people do in their games. I understand if you don't like how some people are playing it still games.Just ignore it , the people who play it in a way that makes you upset. The sims were about playing our stories or play the characters in are way. I am not against EA making update . The goal of the game was never about making players to play a certain way .It was giving players a sandbox and stories that they started

Can you give examples as to how something like this will negatively impact the freedom of simmers? Can anybody even?

I never said negatively impact it.What I am saying it seemed the reason you wanted this.Was because you did not like people break them up,and trying to pursue to not break them up.Which would be better if you ignore the players that do.

I have no problem premades get sexualityupdate.I think it should be everyone and not just lgbt npcs.With also update premades likes and dislikes.

This conversation is now closed.

@EneroDesyembre thank you for starting this thread and sharing your point of view in regards to the legacy Sims, I've passed that feedback on to the team.