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Iron_Guard8's avatar
Iron_Guard8
Legend
4 years ago

Re: The two kinds of turf takeover finales

TT is both my favorite mode in the first place (I prefer objectives over just vanquishing, although there isn't a mode in the shooters I actively dislike; I miss Taco Bandits from GW, and actually liked Battle Arena in BfN too), and my most played multiplayer mode as that's the way it is on PC, unless I play private matches, although with the influx from Steam, that's not 100% true, although they also should have opened things back up for new and returning players (boss hunts, community challenges, plants vs. dinos and so on), or better yet, just have left them up this entire time.

While I generally like GW2 the most of the 3, I prefer some aspects of the original, and prefer both GW games over BfN's changes to Turf Takeover. I also do like having various defenses for the last point; whether AI run or operated by players, and also like having spots for pots/bots for the defender and to summon mobile AI for the attacker. I'll do a bit of a different take on these and just go over each finale one by one. Not in any particular order, barring GW, then GW2, and then BfN. I'll only talk about the finales since that's the focus here.

Wall-Nut Hills: The tall-nut cannons are a great touch and they of course are essentially coconut cannons from PvZ2 in appearance. The plants can also place pots in quite a few spaces. Scientists using energy warp can break this last point unfortunately, but it's always been a good looking point and the fights over the teleport spots can be tense. I'm both glad and disappointed that they ported it to GW2 as I'd have preferred one of the other maps (and I voted for Cactus Canyon), and being unable to use the GW2 characters was a let-down. Taking those cannons out can really help as zombies, but I find it best not to focus too much on them usually.

Driftwood Shores: This is one of my favorite finale in all 3 games. The cannons you use to launch to the island are fun, even if you're vulnerable (as a zombie, plants use them too but usually only early on after getting to the finale), as the flax cannons can give you a really good thrashing (I love the flack/flax pun too, part of why I love PvZ in the first place). Lots of spots to place pots as the defender and to summon mobile AI zombies as the attacker. Plants have to watch for engineer drones that can wreak havoc (I've done that many times as an engineer, a loose drone or 2 can really hurt the megaflower). It's a great looking finale too, especially at night. 

Cactus Canyon: My overall favorite TT map in GW, but not my favorite finale. I do enjoy the whole setting of pushing a giant explosive golf ball into a secret lab, but cart pushing can get a bit too campy at times (as we see a lot in BfN cart pushing). Both sides can summon AI to help though, and there's some decent cover at spots, good flanking avenues, and some high ground so it plays decently overall. Love this one at night too, but in general I find the GW maps look good at night. The team deserves a lot of credit for making night maps look like it's night, but we can still see what's going on. 

Main Street: This is one solid finale. The corn mortars already make the initial approach tough and a plant team that aggressively pushes the zombies on top of the mortars, can make this a rough one. The fight over the teleporter is very heated on this one and if the zombies can keep it operational, it's a bigger help here than usual! Again, both sides have normal summons and the plants especially want to keep pots up as planting the Z4 can be rough. Love this finale, my favorite from all 3 games.

Seeds of Time: This finale lacks pots for the plants, but zombies get to summon AI to attack, and they're surprisingly good at pushing the bootering ram. It's an interesting one as while it has a cart to push, it never seems that bad for the zombies till inside the castle or if the plants defend the drawbridge switches strongly. Once inside the and the zombies have to smash the portcullis down, it's a rough against players, although it's pretty easy against the AI. Zombies getting inside the castle and dealing with the plants that keep to the high ground (but don't spawn camp!), make a huge difference here. Love this one visually, not my favorite finale, but don't hate it.

Great White North: Love the wintry look of this one and like it feels like it's a place the humans of Suburbia would visit for winter sports on vacation before the zombies came. The final point is a bit odd (why does Dave have those mirrors there in the first place?), but I love the Yeti King's dance when the zombies win. Neither side can summon anything here, so it feels a little limited, with the fights focused on the 3 mirrors. One of the less interesting finales, despite having great cut scenes for the end (no matter who wins).

Moon Base Z: The plants camp the zombies a lot in this one (I don't see it the other way much at all). When they don't though, it's a fun and balanced finale as both teams have the same goal and no spawnables. I really enjoy this one (barring the sniping/camping that often dominates this one), even without the built in or summoned AI or installations. It genuinely comes off as the fairest for both sides, and feels liking you're playing on a giant bumper pool table to boot. Good stuff.

Zomburbia: This finale has issues as the zombies generally can hole up in the gallery (or less often in my experience, in the dining room), and keep the plants from defacing the portraits as they only need to have one left to win. The rooms do have more than one egress point, and I have won this as plants, but it's definitely zombie dominated. No summonables either, which is too bad, although if the zombies had bots in good spots, it might be even more favored for them. My least favorite finale from GW2 due to how it plays out.

Zombopolis: I love this map, my favorite TT map, although the finale isn't a favorite, but it is generally good after they balanced it a couple times. The battery gets camped a lot, but the plants have a lot of avenues of attack too, so this one plays out better than other camp-heavy finales. The Zombot itself joins in and that can hurt, but no other AI or installations to use. Overall, good stuff and as the plants take out the bot, the zombies can be more focused on stopping them as they have less robot parts to defend. 

Loggy Acres: I don't hate this one like a lot seem to, but I can see why they do. The finale is the most camp-heavy one in all 3 games, and the mallow mortars on top of pots make this one rough for zombies. Summoned zombies are a thing here, but they don't help that much barring drawing some fire. Generally only see the zombies win if they push really well or the plants don't work together well. I've had matches here the plants collapsed at every earlier point but still held on at the end to win. My 2nd least favorite finale and 2nd least favorite TT map in all 3 games.

Turning Point: My biggest beef here is the engineer camping at the first point, but since this is about the finales, I'll focus on that. The laser on the lighthouse is pretty nasty but as a zombie, you can't rely on it as it's so random on who it shoots. The bots and summoned plants are generally useful here and it has decent flanks for a BfN map. The eel batteries are a decent objective, although because of where they are, inside the lighthouse, the zombies pretty much have to camp to protect them, at least with a chunk of the team as it's otherwise too easy for plants to grab them and run. Not a great one, but not my least favorite either.

Peachy District: The tall-nut cannons should be organic like in Wall-Nut Hills as we've discussed before, but this is my favorite TT map in BfN and favorite finale in BfN too as it calls back to GW and the original PvZ. Again, both sides have access to summonables, and they are useful here too. The roof of the TV station tend to have a heavy plant presence, but I do see zombies get up and clean them out, I tend to focus on taking out the tall-nut cannons and getting on the objectives though. It's like a mini-suburbination as the finale and I quite like it. Can be a rough one for zombies, but I've seen it go both ways often.

Goopy Gully: Both sides again have access to summons but for the plants it's mostly to draw fire as I don't recall ever seeing a summoned plant attack the drill. I've seen both sides heavily camped in this one, although once the plants get a good push, the zombies get spawn camped more often in general. A couple exposed but decent spots for bots to help defend. The drill point moving around as it's damaged is actually a nice touch as it means you have to adjust to that for both sides. A decent finale but the point can be bugged at certain angles where it states your doing damage, but no damage is actually scored.

Preserve Pastures: My 2nd favorite BfN TT map, mostly for the look and setting, but the finale is heavily plant slanted as they have full access to the high ground which gives them a big advantage. Zombies can and do win, and scientists can really help keep the Gargantuars up, but it's still better for the plants. The summoned zombies do help push the gargantuars though which helps, but the pot spots are generally very good for the plants too. If the zombies can take some high ground it can help a lot, but then they often do that and then spawn camp again, and I'd rather lose than spawn camp like that.

Tourist Trap Island: I so wanted to love this one, but it's the worst TT map in any of the games, and the most boring finale to boot. The setup of that last point again lends itself to camping the defenders (zombies) if the plants play super aggressive, although I don't see that happen too much to be fair, but the zombies don't have a lot of entry options from the spawn. Both sides can use summons, and the plants can help push the switch.

7 Replies

  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    4 years ago

    Wanted to make this one separate as my other post was already so long (I can be quite verbose at times, I admit). 

    I find it interesting that GW2 lacks the summoned spots that GW and BfN have, and yet they have some great TT maps, while BfN's are my least favorite; even Peachy District, which is my favorite BfN TT map, isn't as good as any of the maps from GW and GW2 (i'm talking from a game play perspective, for visuals, I don't dislike any of them). 

    For finales; worst to best, I'd rate them like this:

    • Tourist Trap Island
    • Loggy Acres
    • Preserve Pastures
    • Turning Point
    • Goopy Gully
    • Peachy District
    • Wall-Nut Hills
    • Zomburbia
    • Great White North
    • Seeds of Time
    • Zombopolis
    • Cactus Canyon
    • Driftwood Shores
    • Moon Base Z
    • Main Street

    Main street is rough for zombies but it's still fun, never see any real spawn camping (teleporter camping, but not spawn camping), and it's got a great tie-in to the original PvZ as well as fun objective, so it wins out over Moon Base Z, which I still love for how it plays and how balanced it is when the spawn camping isn't ruining things.


    Tourist Trap Island loses for me mostly for how dull it is (the finale and the map itself unfortunately, although the zombie victory cut scene is great, while the plant one is ok). It narrowly edges out the camp fest that is Loggy Acres for the bottom spot. 

    Wall-Nut Hills is a bit low due to the way zombies can cheese it too easily, if not for that it would rank higher. 

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    4 years ago

    @Iron_Guard8Gw2 wallnut hills is just dissapointing. I would've rather taken any of the other gw1 maps. Its a shame because it had the potential to be really good and I do like the afternoon sky they gave to it (as someone who played the ps3 version the HD of gw2 was very appreciated) but the lack of the gw2 cast really shines through here as cacti and peashooters dominate harder than they did in gw1 since most were nerfed or reworked to fit the balance of the new cast like dead beard gaining the drone and being able to countersnipe cactus.

    All the flaws of gw1 still seep through like the energy warp and the stupidly oppresive sightlines on the teleporters.

    They could've most likely fixed a lot of things over time but due to the time constraint of bfn's release they were never able to fix the spawn icons, lack of solo play with atleast gw1 cast, and even given it back its nighttime mode.

    I remeber when it was announced that people thought it was the revival of gw2 content but instead it was the half baked send off of it.

    I think the reason main street doesnt get spawncamped is the sheer distance between spawns.

    I liked how the golf bomb in gw1 was just the zombies stuffing a giant bomb into a golfball on a crushed golf cart. It just looks more appealing than the generic overwatch flying 2fps carts of bfn and looks more like it was made in the fly for the mission.

    Seeds of time is usually fine until you get to the castle as it devolves into bean bomb spam. I think plants should have gotten pots by the levers like how pots were at the golf hole.

    Maybe the mirrors were already there for the yeti king to refreeze things he froze over? Or maybe dave needed to unfreeze the snow peas.

    Zomburbia is a paradox. Zombies hold up in one area and watch the rest of the map fall in seconds yet can hold for minutes and if they do the opposite they are often able to hold longer yet not coordinate the final defense fast enough.

    I remember launch zombopolis where it felt like it took 8 years to destroy the battery without 4 gatlings.

    Loggy acres is even worse worth bots as they all camp the drop zone. The ai spawnables arent that helpful thpugh since unlike the cart maps the ai have no hardcore objwctives to run to do they unfortunately roam around in place.

    Preserve pastures just got worse overtime. People gave it a lot of leeway since it was the first new TT map yet the blue garg constantly bugs and doesnt explode so you practically shoot yourself in the foot if you spawn him in overtime.

    Tourist trap island was such a dissapoitment. The tourist trap is left after the first objective and even then it just feels like a mishmash of assests and even reuses some from gw2 in seeds of time like the plushy stores. The island isnt unique enough between points to stand out, and the finale is one of the weakest in the series.

    Gw nighttime was so good because it went the extra mile in details like the lights of seeds of time for the entrance, aurora borealis in gwn (why the heck arent night maps in solo play?), the zom moon, the octopus in driftwood shores, and numerous houses and lampposts being lit up. You dont have that in pressure pier for zombies or giddy park (though giddy park looks way better than pressure pier).

  • ManicMossie's avatar
    ManicMossie
    4 years ago
    @stukapooka 

    @Iron_Guard8

    You guys touched a raw nerve there when discussing Walnut Hills, as it's completely beyond me why EA chose that map as an additional TT in GW2.

    Given an average Zombie team, a win is an absolute certainty if they get as far as the mansion, as:

    1) An Electrician can just stand by the hedge and plaster the Plant defenders with electric bolts and not only rack up kills, but more importantly clear the patio of defenders

    2) A Scientist can simply use his warp ability in order to get into the mansion, and in fact, if he's bright he'll use his Energy Warp, and it'll just be a laugh getting in.

    Apart from that, Walnut Hills as a map offers only yawn-inducing drudgery. It's an appallingly bad thought-out map when compared to the likes of Driftwood Shores, Main Street etc. etc. 

    On afterthought I'd better stop here as I could go on and on.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    4 years ago
    @ManicMossie Easily the worst gw map. The overall environment isnt that exicting to look at as the only backgrounds are bare hills and the inside of the map lacks what makes main street and driftwood good as we're in the city and beach pier setting. While gw1 verticality was dominated by peashooter/soldier it was the worst in wallnut hills as everything feels like its one story tall besides a few exceptions, it almost comes off like a bfn/bad gw2 map in that regard.

    Certain teleporter spawns are awful and can be shot from the plant base or be easily camped, engineer no longer has the base clearing drone bombs and without deadbeard it allows plants to completely strangle hold the garden, some of the sightlines are so open that a good cactus can almost shoot you from another base with some of them.

    They even reused music from seeds of time rather than simply reuse gw1 music. Some pots are missing and the spawn icons are bugged.

    They shouldn't have held the poll on twitter only and put it in the game instead for the mass of active players to decide.

    As you mention the mansion is still an absolute mess as they didnt even bother to try and find a way to reduce ability spam.

    They kicked the gw2 cast out despite the fact that the gw1 cast was adjusted to fit in with them like soldiers long range capabilities being nerfed and engineer giving his drone to deadbeard as hes now the official sniper for zombies. The new characters could've even solved a lot of issues since corn and sb would reduce the annoyance of peashooters on rooftops, deadbeard would keep cactus at bay, and imp could push through the more stubborn points like the park. Instead they kicked out all of them because imp and citron wouldnt work in a few areas. They even killed solo play for the map because of it since they were to lazy to just add gw1 AI only (this ticks me off the most since solo play is one of the better things that puts gw2 over gw1). Maybe if bfn wasnt being rushed out right around the corner the popcap b team could've tuned it better.

    Looking back i would've rather had them add an entirely new Gardens and graveyards map to gw2 so all the characters could be involved.
  • ManicMossie's avatar
    ManicMossie
    4 years ago

    Good points @stukapooka  particularly the ones about the teleporter spawns and the applicability of some of the GW2 character cast. It really is such an appallingly poor thought-out map. 

    That rushed job of Walnut Hills has its likeness in many of the aspects of BfN; but not to take that discussion up again, as I know that there has been a lengthy debate on the game by you and others over the past year or so.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    4 years ago

    @ManicMossieIve seen many say it was one of the teams first map for gw1 and I can absolutely buy that idea.

    Yeah ive made plenty of posts about bfn and even have a few more coming whenever im not busy with irl stuff. I'll definetly have something for the anniversary of founders on the 4th.

  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    4 years ago

    @stukapooka @ManicMossie I like Wall-Nut Hills more than you guys do, but it's still my least favorite GW TT map. Besides the finale issues you both mention, it's a sniper's dream at points, and lacks that extra oomph of the others in layout and visual appeal. 

    I voted for Cactus Canyon in the Twitter poll, although I probably should have voted for Main Street in retrospect. My biggest issue with Cactus Canyon is the tall mesas at the first point, where Peashooters and Foot Soldiers camp you from dizzying heights and it can be a pain to get them off those; once past that point, it's much better though.

    We have been discussing a lot over the past couple of years and I've been playing mostly GW2 (some of the other games too, but not as much), to continue to show the flag so that we'll get a new shooter one of these days. We still have lots to talk about, including readdressing issues we've spoken of in the past.

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