Re: Terrible Fighter Jet Balance - the Jet-v-Wildcat/TC balance is particularly bad

@Ironhead841 

Jets perform quite well against ground vehicles other than the wildcat - IMO only the Wildcat-v-Jet balance should be looked at (considering ground vehicles only here)

I don't think infantry should be spending any energy trying to take down jets anyway (not one of these hardcore milsim fans but that would be silly; also, jets don't farm infantry sooo)

For the sake of argument I could agree about the effectiveness of wildcat against jets here, but then we'd have to talk about how effective exactly the wildcat should be against aircraft. Right now, I think that AA is far too effective vs Jets.

I'd disagree about the last part - jets should be as good as AA in a 1V1

@Metal_Daryl97but is it not a bad idea to make something have a fair chance of countering its counter? It would be like rock, paper , scissors where there is no paper and scissors can also beat rock.

What would the be point of a wildcat that can move in 2D space vs a jet that can move in a 3D space much faster?

Also a jet with a 25mm CAN hunt infantry who expose themselves on roofs etc. I have not jet being killed by a jet as infantry by player pilots (bots have killed me though) but I have definitelly killed at least 5-6 soldiers after the 25mm with the jet because they were either roof camping or trying to stinger me.

@UP_Hawxxeye @Ironhead841

You also have to consider how jet-wildcat balance affects the performance of jets against other vehicles. Current jet-v-wildcat balance (which is terrible imo) negatively affects the ability of jets to deal with other vehicles (as long as wildcat is not ignoring jet and person using wildcat has decent aim, obviously)

Busy day. Gonna address other comments later. 

@Metal_Daryl97 

Look at it from a potential threat perspective then.

JETS.

A decent jet pilots' threats are what? Wildcats and potentially the off-chance that the other team has a decent pilot on it (heli or jet) 

The FXM-33 is simply ineffective against jets I would argue, so those threats listed above are pretty much it.

WILDCATS.

Wildcats threats are, jets, helicopters, MAVs, tanks, jeeps (with 50mm cannons), SOFLAMs, not to mention the fact that literally every enemy infantryman has the potential to be carrying M5 rockets, mines or C5.

I think the Wildcat is in a good place balance-wise at the moment, if a jet is focused on hit and run attacks on enemy aircraft then a camping Wildcat in its home base shouldn't be a problem. With the size of these maps it would have difficulty covering half of most maps so that leaves a jet un-contested for the other half.

And if it leaves its base it will have so many other threats to worry about chances are it isn't going to focus on a notoriously difficult to down jet buzzing around anyway.

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@Ironhead841 wrote:

@Metal_Daryl97 

Look at it from a potential threat perspective then.

JETS.

A decent jet pilots' threats are what? Wildcats and potentially the off-chance that the other team has a decent pilot on it (heli or jet) 

The FXM-33 is simply ineffective against jets I would argue, so those threats listed above are pretty much it.

WILDCATS.

Wildcats threats are, jets, helicopters, MAVs, tanks, jeeps (with 50mm cannons), SOFLAMs, not to mention the fact that literally every enemy infantryman has the potential to be carrying M5 rockets, mines or C5.

I think the Wildcat is in a good place balance-wise at the moment, if a jet is focused on hit and run attacks on enemy aircraft then a camping Wildcat in its home base shouldn't be a problem. With the size of these maps it would have difficulty covering half of most maps so that leaves a jet un-contested for the other half.

And if it leaves its base it will have so many other threats to worry about chances are it isn't going to focus on a notoriously difficult to down jet buzzing around anyway.

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Yep, whenever I dedicate a round to using the Wildcat I rarely bother targeting the jet.

There's no point, you'll never take a full health jet down unless the pilot is bad.

And once the pilot works out they are playing against someone in the Wildcat who always keeps their smoke saved for their AGMs they usually don't bother trying to take you out.

My priority is choppers and harassing or destroying them if they come to my teams side of the map.

If you're in a jet and you're dying to Wildcats on a regular basis you probably have poor real time map awareness of your main threat on the ground.

@Metal_Daryl97@Ironhead841 Infantry should totally attempt to lock us and take us down with stingers. Every time we get locked and come in for a strafe our period of time to do damage is less. Sure, we can flare, and run away but it makes us far less effective when were forced to do that. Keep locking and firing at us and we can't do our jobs as a jet pilot. Or better yet don't so we can wreak havoc :D

@Ironhead841

If you want to look at it from a potential threat perspective - in addition to the number of threats, you also have to consider how dangerous each threat is.

So first, let's consider all the potential threats, as well as their effectiveness 

Effectiveness of vehicles against Jets vs Wildcats:

• Wildcats are extremely effective vs jets < 600 m, where close-medium range attacks can deal massive damage while jets are not effective against wildcats (also, jet-v-jet way easier than jet-v-wildcat encounter) 

• Transport Choppers: extremely effective vs jets at close-medium range, in part because of their better maneuverability, multiple angles of attack, ridiculously fast repair rate with dual repair tools, insanely high hp...) - reminder that there are often two of these present at same time. Silly DICE probably not aware that condor can actually chase jets and inflict continuous damage, without giving jet chance to regen. On the other hand, Transport choppers are far less effective against wildcats, unless there are two people continuously repairing (the ~8-mm cannons, which are more common than other weapon choices, doesn't even damage heavy armour) 

• Attack choppers can be very effective against jets, but only if the pilot is really good. On the other hand, they are only slightly more effective than jets against wildcats unless they've got good cover or camping at flight ceiling 

• Tanks are mostly ineffective vs jets unless jet is flying at a low altitude; tanks are very effective vs wildcats at close-medium range 

• LATV4 jeeps are pretty much useless against either but definitely fare better against jets (not equipped with AGM) 

• I'd say MAVs are only slightly more effective against wildcats compared to jets (only useful for close range encounters) 

• Infantry are much better vs wildcats but they can still be somewhat effective against jets flying slowly at a low altitude, especially if they are using TV missiles/m5. While stingers will usually not be able to destroy jets, they will definitely force the jet to retreat and also waste its flares, which makes the jet vulnerable to other lockon weapons.

The "threat perspective" point was an exaggeration - while it is true that wildcats face slightly greater threat than jets, the difference in threat level is not sufficient to warrant the current wildcat-v-jet balance 

Also, jet piloting without doubt requires more skills - this should be rewarded! 

@Metal_Daryl97 

We're just not going ta agree on this jets vs. Wildcat issue, I think the Wildcat is in a good place right and have given you my reasoning for it, which you have dismissed as an "exaggeration" ok fine agree to disagree.

I think the jets need their own slot and to be honest probably two available at a time,  where you and I differ is I believe their role should be primarily focused on destroying enemy air assets not ground vehicles as ground vehicles are already under enough multiple threats already.

It DOES take skill to be a good dog-fighter (which to be clear, I am not) but keeping a jet alive for an entire round is pretty easy right now even for a bad pilot, such as myself, just doing hit and run style attacks. Dog-fighting abilities are the only buff I would like to see to jets.

If we’re going down the road of small maps and shrinking the old maps then the AA range needs to be reduced. That 600m instalock is absolute BS in this game.

Jets are barely useable on Stranded, Exposure, and Kaleidoscope without some AA camper in spawn.

@Metal_Daryl97Jets do need improvement in several ways
But one thing that must be avoided at all costs is having a balance where only jets can take out competent jets.

This was a recurring mistake in all the BF games I played before

@UP_Hawxxeye 
No disagreement here :-P (although that would have been nice xD)

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@Ironhead841 wrote:

@Metal_Daryl97 

I agree with some of what you're saying, especially about jets getting their own slot. Jets should be PRIMARILY focused and effective against OTHER aircraft and could probably do with a buff in that regard, with some limited air-to-ground capabilities just nothing too overpowered, there is plenty of other crap already making ground warfare, particularly armor, miserable enough already.

Jets are damn near impossible to take down already, I T-1ed the FXM-33 a while back but I bet you less than 20 of those kills were jets and usually those pilots were extremely bad or did something extremely stupid.

So, with that being said the one area I would strongly disagree is in regard to jets vs. Wildcat, which is pretty much the only real counter for decent jet pilots in this game at this point. The Wildcat is supposed to be the mobile AA in this game, harassment and destruction of enemy aircraft is its primary job by definition, so naturally it should be extremely effective versus any and all aircraft, yes?

Aircraft should be hesitant to attack an armored AA tank in a head-to-head matchup and frankly aircraft should actually lose every time really in that situation.

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same.  i have thousand+ (maybe 2k+ will have to look when i get home cause that tracker website doesn't work right) of vehicles destroyed with the stinger and i'd be shocked if more than 30 were jets

Jets spend significantly less time at low altitudes compared to choppers (busy farming infantry)

Also, by forcing a jet to deploy its flares, you make it super vulnerable to nearby enemy vehicles

If you want to 1 shot destroy jets, just use recoiless M5/ TV missile

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@Metal_Daryl97 wrote:

Jets spend significantly less time at low altitudes compared to choppers (busy farming infantry)

Also, by forcing a jet to deploy its flares, you make it super vulnerable to nearby enemy vehicles

If you want to 1 shot destroy jets, just use recoiless M5/ TV missile

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Of your last 100 deaths while piloting a jet how many of those deaths would you guess were from an M5 / TV missile?

Roughly 5% (always when flying low)

It's actually not THAT hard to achieve if pilot is distracted...

Also, expecting infantry to perform well against jets is kinda silly, especially considering that jets are not a significant threat to infantry