Lets Talk About 'Skill-Based Matchmaking'?
INTRODUCTION He...
Forum Discussion
Let's not hijack the post off-topic and dog pile without addressing the substance of the discussion. I.E. Not "The just want to beat up bad players!", "They just want to be fed!". If you want to start a discussion outside of this one for your own concerns, you may.
With regards to how you responded to @dlpaulson12 , @DoYaSeeMe -
Saying "I'd like to get more matches like these." if you don't get them is a disingenuous or ignorant argument when you do not get those matches. Do tell me what the chance of you running into a full predator squad in your games before the full implementation of SBMM. Because I can say pretty assuredly say that I did NOT run into that many. The reality was that even despite higher level players playing more than most, I rarely saw them in my matches over and over again compared to now. It is getting harder to communicate with you if I have to keep reiterating my points to explain why your ideas on the matter aren't of great substance. You also keep creating arguments that people in this thread have not made - "What I understand from your reply is that you would like rookie players like that, to get an effortless, casual win every now and then.". That is such a bad faith argument, I am beginning to think you aren't equipped to discuss this topic despite your interest in it. How about you address the points they DO make? I think you are oblivious to a big original message in my post - That good players are being punished for performing well. The idea that not wanting matches to end as dlpaulson12 just exhibited means anything close to what you just suggested is absurd when he literally told you why he is annoyed.
Paraphrasing, the points dlpaulson12 made that I could glaze were "Most of my matches are not different from ranked play. This is an example of the types of matches I fight in. I have to fight just as hard as if I were in ranked without a reward. I think you do not understand how much harder this is on better players.". He is in no way saying that if you are bad or new that you should be fed to him or better players. He is expressing his experience with the SBMM and you seem to be purposefully misrepresenting what he said. I mentioned this before and I will get into it again. If Respawn believe that they should encourage an easier environment for new players to learn the game, then focus on the new players. My recommendation specifically focuses on the new players and attempts to prevent Respawn from turning an unranked mode into a ranked mode, ruining what a BR is, and punishing players for getting better or being better.
@JiboTVHe asked me personally, I answered with my view. I see no issue here. But it's pretty ironic that he was "punished" with a win. Also, talking about "zoo predators" isn't at all off topic. It's the SBMM that brings them out. People are crying about k/d ratios falling around here as well.
I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
- @DoYaSeeMe well that is explains why i am playing with the same people every day.
@DoYaSeeMe wrote:I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
Thanks for bringing in some realism into this discussion!
And what makes me wonder the most is:
If their K/D has dropped, and their winrate and and and
WHY DO THEY STILL GET 100% BETTER OPPONENTS?
If they play bad, the system downgrades them automatically to lower level.
But they still pretend they get the same difficult level...
I DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!
This all all useless crying of 1% of the active players...
99% are ok with the game...
Time to close this whinethreads!
- @Flashshark1980 @DoYaSeeMe
I can't verify because it only relates to my personal experience but when matches dont fill quick enough it seems to throw the entire lobby onto a different, further away, server. Makes the game all sorts of laggy and gross.
Aside from that comment, I know you dont see the significance now but eventually these sweats will be your burden to fight, even at a low skill level. The highest tier players never retire, but the players in between you and them are hating this gaming experience. Be conscious of that when you assume all that is being done is complaining.
A lower player base is bad for a game in general. Longer que times are never fun to wait through.
After multiple weeks of waiting on respawn to get it together, I dont think they care if the game is fair. This is the kind of experience that prevents me from investing in future games from the company. - @RwFinfrock I may of already said this in this topic (theres too many SBMM topics so idk what ive said and where) but Im starting to get to the point of looking for a new game until this is sorted out wether thats Fortnite, Destiny 2, Buying that new Call of Duty Game shroud was doing idk just any game but apex I guess as you say the players in between low and high are hating the gaming experience and I believe im one if the ones caught in the middle When it matches me with lower levels I kill them, when it matches me with higher skill levels I can’t do anything and I can’t seem to find ‘’my skill level’’ in my games anymore its all too much skill now
Sidenote: Reply to me any games you guys know about that are great and free to play Apex is really the only battle royale ive played decides Fortnite, rules of survival, or PUBG so if anyone could head me into a good direction of a new game It would be helpful apex was my main game but its becoming a game that will sit on my hard drive and ‘’collect dust’’ more and more by the day the new game dosnt have to be a battle royale, it can be any great team by based FPS shooting game (by team based I mean it could be like a team death match, king of the hill types of games too) I mainly just want the FPS part and maybe a SOLO experience, while having that team aspect if I choose so far I only know of Fortnite with the different game modes but its not really FPS I ve tried the Cycle, too!
It has some PvE elements, but PvP is deffinitly strong in the game!
Maybe it's the game for you FallenAngel777.
AFAIK there is no MM just pure random!
@Flashshark1980dont forget that @fallenangel777 was just like you a few days ago, he loved the experience... i stopped playing , so another noob is being fed to preds..so you will see in time.
@RwFinfrock Sweats will never be a burden for me personally. Apex is a hardcore game, I adopted it because it delivers a lot of intensity over a short period of time. Also, when it will become unplayable or boring, I will move on, I'm not chained to the game forever. I spent over 800 hours playing Apex already, which is probably far greater than the average longevity they aimed for when making their plans.
For the game to survive longterm, Respawn needs to keep players in for a season or so, but more importantly, to hook as many new ones as possible in the first 2-10 hours. I think retention was heavily affected by the many highly skilled players bombing lobbies , so SBMM became mandatory.
SBMM also helps in circumventing the Dunning-Kruger Effect's "valley of despair", where most players feel like they're hitting a wall, losing confidence and then abandoning the game with frustration.
This "valley of despair" lies deep within what we consider the "average player" bracket in Apex. A lot of time is needed to level up your skills until you become confident again and only after getting there you can face the top tier of the game (the gurus). Also, after this point there's a much smaller chance of you leaving the game, as you've invested many hours of hard work to build skills that are great in Apex, but close to useless in many other games.
Respawn cares. They are trying hard to not split the playerbase even further with many different modes, maps or metas, so that your queue times are short and the pool for SBMM is as big as possible.
- @WickXI I said that in a post somewhere eventually maybe in the next few weeks he will be in my shoes lmfao I was in his not long ago while I was in his I loved it and everyone hated me for it, now im in everyone elses shoes so its natural that now Im mad at flash whos now in my old shoes then flash will be in our shoes and he will hate someone else that becomes in his new shoes
Hope that isn’t too confusing! It kinda is...
@WickXI wrote:@Flashshark1980dont forget that @fallenangel777 was just like you a few days ago, he loved the experience... i stopped playing , so another noob is being fed to preds..so you will see in time.
Why will anything change over time?
To me it seems like my rank in SBMM is reset or at least lowered every day!
When I start playing my session, I get my first #1 placement during the first 3 matches.
Then I feel there IS a little adjustment by SBMM and I get tougher oponents.
But thats no problem, for me.
My biggest problem are those over agressive teammates, going alone and running blindly into enmies.
Yes and the leavers of course...
I believe the rank in SBMM is calculated situational over the past 5/10 matches.
So if you have a bad evening, you get lowered and less hard oponents.
If you have a good day, you get tougher oponents...
That is why I wonder why some say they dont get out of that "hard enemy environment".
After some matches ther must be a reaction!
@DoYaSeeMe wrote:@JiboTVHe asked me personally, I answered with my view. I see no issue here. But it's pretty ironic that he was "punished" with a win. Also, talking about "zoo predators" isn't at all off topic. It's the SBMM that brings them out. People are crying about k/d ratios falling around here as well.
I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
Regardless if he asked you personally, my point still stands in that your response is disingenuous or ignorant. You cannot just waltz up in the shoes of someone who experiences lobbies that you don't and act like you understand that level of difference between your lobbies one for one and say whether you'd prefer them. So you are either disingenuous and know your lobbies cannot be compared or ignorant to the fact your games are so different right now. Also, those mindless responses dismissing the point of the discussion by just stating "Zoo predators.", "You just want to be fed." are off-topic ad hominem and irrelevant to the topic of my post based on what I've written. I'll shut them down as I please or ask forum moderators to remove them because ad hominem is not healthy to discussion and is off-topic. Unless you disagree? In which case, (And this is an ironic use of sarcasm if it wasn't clear.) you should just get back to dying in bronze and git gud and stop spamming predators because ur mad at players for being better. See how useless that comment was? Anyways.
Queue numbers in regards to what? My queues are a bit longer than most lower ranked players I associate with. I am pretty patient so I do not mind too much and it seems like they are trying to fix that. Also, the idea that SBMM cannot 'take effect' because queue times are only 60-100 seconds seems like a really weird argument that does not have much basis. It is a priority based system to my knowledge, so the idea that SBMM has barely any influence seems just wrong unless you have information I don't.
@Flashshark1980 wrote:
@DoYaSeeMe wrote:I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
Thanks for bringing in some realism into this discussion!
And what makes me wonder the most is:
If their K/D has dropped, and their winrate and and and
WHY DO THEY STILL GET 100% BETTER OPPONENTS?
If they play bad, the system downgrades them automatically to lower level.
But they still pretend they get the same difficult level...
I DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!
This all all useless crying of 1% of the active players...
99% are ok with the game...
Time to close this whinethreads!
You are the one whining. This is a thread to discuss SBMM and its impact on players. You are whining about players explaining their experience. You are contributing little to nothing to the discussion. If you do not like this discussion and love matchmaking, make another thread or actually try discussing in good faith here. Do not pollute mine with your nonsense. I have addressed your idea of "Why aren't they just leveling down in the SBMM?" argument already. You and @DoYaSeeMe can feel free to show me where I or others in this thread just complain about our k/d. You can also tell me why caring about your k/d at all is a bad thing. Please, I'm listening. You are drawing absurd conclusions that everyone is okay with the game at any rate and I'm done with you.
- @JiboTV no you
but in all seriousness, SBMM may suck for you but it helps others improve and yes a SBMM based on levels would be helpful but than once you reach that 100+, you are back at square one where you could be getting matched with higher skilled players than yourself and continue to lose back to back causing said player to leave the game.
We don't want that, we want to be welcoming of all players and skills so if a player still has a low skill level than they should be paired with others in the same field to bring them up or at least put them on par with enemies who won't always dominate over them.
Again, the matches are only "sweaty" because both teams make it as such, if the enemy team didn't try so much, neither would your team, and vice versa but eventually it would lead back to both teams trying to overcome the other.
Again this seems a bigger issue for those ontop than those below simply because they constantly kept sweating to be where they are and now they are constantly coming across teams who have the same mind set as them, which is to not die or lose.
@iBlockHead wrote:
@JiboTVno you
but in all seriousness, SBMM may suck for you but it helps others improve and yes a SBMM based on levels would be helpful but than once you reach that 100+, you are back at square one where you could be getting matched with higher skilled players than yourself and continue to lose back to back causing said player to leave the game.
We don't want that, we want to be welcoming of all players and skills so if a player still has a low skill level than they should be paired with others in the same field to bring them up or at least put them on par with enemies who won't always dominate over them.
Again, the matches are only "sweaty" because both teams make it as such, if the enemy team didn't try so much, neither would your team, and vice versa but eventually it would lead back to both teams trying to overcome the other.
Again this seems a bigger issue for those ontop than those below simply because they constantly kept sweating to be where they are and now they are constantly coming across teams who have the same mind set as them, which is to not die or lose.Pft. No I'm not recommending SBMM be based on levels. It seems some people are confused and I cleared that up in some responses. I never indicated to use levels as a means for discerning skill groups. I suggested that we use SBMM only on the lower skill groups. My 1-100 example was figurative, it did not mean levels, 1-100 is the SBMM put into numbers basically. I agree that this is a top-down issue, that should make this doubly scary for people. If you believe that the best solution makes it so lower skill and fresh players get more time to adjust to the game and grow, it sounds like you agree with my recommendation I made at the start of this post.
- @JiboTV I wanna say you're wrong but that's too short.
if SBMM is there, than everyone should be getting tracked from the moment the play meaning they begin to move up from skill level 1 thus always pitting them with players who play like them and if they manage to defeat them with ease over and over, they should be moving up at a reasonable pace, however the matches won't be getting any easier as the system thinks you are naturally this good always which is why higher players constantly have to keep trying and trying against others.
I still believe SBMM is fine where it is, I still see Predators in my casual matches and sure sometimes they get one over on me or I get one on them but that just helps me get better vs constantly fighting people I barely have to try against. I could jump into Ranked and get closer to Pred to see how it feels to constantly fight sweats to help better understand but from what I have experienced now, coming across players who are on my level isn't a big of an issue to me because again, it's not ranked and theres no punishment for dying. Sure I can't get 10+ kill anymore but I like my stats to reflect my actual skill vs. my skill against noobs. Outside of ranked mode, K/D and win% stats were the only visible skill-based progression system present in the game.
If each player's MMR value accurately approximates their skill, then both K/D and win% will tend towards the same value for (almost*) all players. (*the exceptions being those at the very highest, and lowest MMR values).
Not only is our individual MMR completely hidden from us, but we've also got absolutely no idea how it's computed, nor any knowledge of how it's utilised by the matchmaking system.
You mention at some point platinum players will feel it. I am in platinum in ranked right now. I vowed I wouldn’t play random ranked games yet here I am. My teammates are potatoes in ranked so far( 5 games in). Except for one game, teammate and I went kill for kill to the win.(I haven’t had a game feel that good in weeks) I am not looking for noob stomping just a somewhat balanced game with a chance to win. Ranked is feeling way better atm than casual.
I can actually make a mistake miss a shot what have you and keep fighting. So for me platinum ranked games with randoms feel more balanced player base wise than casual. How is that for ironic.
On a side note and a bit off topic 1 game as above with 5 kills 2 assists and 1700 damage and 1 revive yielded me about 5000 xp. I can get that every game in the winter event. SMH.
I dont want to have to play at peak preformance every game. I dont want to be improving my skill level every game. Sometimes I want to get p2020 kills or die trying
@mastiffslinger wrote:My teammates are potatoes in ranked so far( 5 games in).
So all your squadmembers you get randomly are much lower rank than you?
And you play much better then them?
Well if this is the case, the SBMM has not calculated their rank or your rank in a good way!
There seem to be too high differences in one squad?
- @Flashshark1980
I agree with this lol.. im level 13x currently and get level 33's with like 100 kills tops. Usually ill be the first one in a fight and the only one leaving it. That or my team is to scared to fight and runs away.. Yet this is plat...
Regardless of my side track there.. SBMM is a joke. I dont mind playing people better then me.. in fact I prefer it. So to me it is just an excuse for the weak. @iBlockHead I'd prefer long discussion if it's civilized. Not going to quote due to this conversation ending due to us having drastically different views. We have two different perspectives on the game if you think SBMM is fine in unranked games because there is no punishment for losing like in ranked. I feel punished not because I lose or win less, but because I've lost the ability to play solo and with friends who are not as good at the game, and I have to keep up with very high standards in my matches to not die instantly which leaves me being better off playing ranked most of the time with a full team.
I'll leave you with a quote to think on - There may not be a punishment for dying, but there isn't a reward for playing. If this seems like a grind with no light at the end of the tunnel where I cannot meet new people and have a chance to do well or play with my friends due to skill disparity, I may as well stop playing casual games. I am not and have not argued this the way you think I have, I advise you to read my other responses to people and reread my initial post. Disagree with my suggestion for changes if you may, but you and I have a fundamental disagreement if you think there isn't a problem at all.
@RwFinfrock wrote:I dont want to have to play at peak preformance every game. I dont want to be improving my skill level every game. Sometimes I want to get p2020 kills or die trying
I have articulated similar responses, I appreciate you adding your insights to the discussion. I don't think everyone wants to have to improve every game or just die, sometimes you just want to have fun. That is harder to do at my SBMM rank, especially if you have lower skill friends or do solos. I appreciate you taking the time to write a response, thanks for explaining your experience with the current SBMM system. People do not seem to understand that at lower rankings you are able to make more mistakes and won't be as punished, but your performance is held to an insane standard the further up you go. Benign things turn to little mistakes. Little mistakes turn into big ones. Big ones turn into giant ones.
@iBlockHead wrote:
@JiboTVI wanna say you're wrong but that's too short.
if SBMM is there, than everyone should be getting tracked from the moment the play meaning they begin to move up from skill level 1 thus always pitting them with players who play like them and if they manage to defeat them with ease over and over, they should be moving up at a reasonable pace, however the matches won't be getting any easier as the system thinks you are naturally this good always which is why higher players constantly have to keep trying and trying against others.
I still believe SBMM is fine where it is, I still see Predators in my casual matches and sure sometimes they get one over on me or I get one on them but that just helps me get better vs constantly fighting people I barely have to try against. I could jump into Ranked and get closer to Pred to see how it feels to constantly fight sweats to help better understand but from what I have experienced now, coming across players who are on my level isn't a big of an issue to me because again, it's not ranked and theres no punishment for dying. Sure I can't get 10+ kill anymore but I like my stats to reflect my actual skill vs. my skill against noobs.Yep. It really is this simple.
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