Lets Talk About 'Skill-Based Matchmaking'?

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@HansBurgers wrote:
@DarthVaaparThe Apex on release wasn't a fail, but in it's current state it is very much so.

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@HansBurgers I would encourage you take what DarthVaapar says with a grain of salt. He makes a lot of jumps when he disagrees with people I've seen (I can't be bothered to respond to them all.), you can take note of my response to him. I understand your feelings as to why this season fails in comparison to the game when it began. At the very least, I hope someone like DarthVaapar can understand that some changes need to be made and that this game does not feel as good for the players who continue putting more time and or effort in. I also hope he understands that the community doesn't widely agree with his perspective. The polling I've seen on Reddit says more people take issue with SBMM than those who think it's fine. He is entitled to his opinion, but I'd like to see where he gets his data on everyone loving how the current SBMM stands. 

My solution to this is just by playing on an alt account ranked to still enjoy the gameplay and to make sure that some games are winable. If I'm with my full main squad I will play unrankeds to face other premades. But alone, hell no. Not doable.

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@JiboTV wrote:

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@HansBurgers wrote:
@DarthVaaparThe Apex on release wasn't a fail, but in it's current state it is very much so.

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@HansBurgers I would encourage you take what DarthVaapar says with a grain of salt. He makes a lot of jumps when he disagrees with people I've seen (I can't be bothered to respond to them all.), you can take note of my response to him. I understand your feelings as to why this season fails in comparison to the game when it began. At the very least, I hope someone like DarthVaapar can understand that some changes need to be made and that this game does not feel as good for the players who continue putting more time and or effort in. I also hope he understands that the community doesn't widely agree with his perspective. The polling I've seen on Reddit says more people take issue with SBMM than those who think it's fine. He is entitled to his opinion, but I'd like to see where he gets his data on everyone loving how the current SBMM stands. 

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Wow man. You’re still coming after me? I know I touched a nerve, but jeez. 

Oh, and yes, I do write very well, whether you think so or not. Haha! But that’s not particularly special or anything. Many people around here do.You do too, for that matter. 

Anyway, I reviewed all the pertinent posts on this thread and no, mine do not have any unclear “jumps” or anything of the sort. I also don’t resort to personal attacks simply because someone disagrees with me. Such methods instantly invalidate any points one might have made. I encourage you to consider this going forward. As for those personal insults...  It’s Christmas time, so you get a pass. 

Look, my position is still the same. Calling SBMM a punishment is ridiculous. Everyone should be playing against others of similar skill. A safe space where elite players can have an easy time of it against others of significantly lesser skill, just because they’re very good, top tier  players, is an unbecoming request. I still stand by that position. No one else is catered too in this manner. 

Also, what we have in “ranked” play is not a true ELO. You see the progression system, you must understand this. It was designed for elites, at the request of elites, for them to have  some extra badges and cosmetics to show off their prowess. It is working as intended. 

I also think the Holo-Day Bash event was successful enough to have thrown off the SBMM system. With so many players fighting on the train, the standard lobbies were, for the sake of expediency, having to fill lobbies with mixed tiered players more frequently. This point is more for the average players, who suddenly saw many more elites in their matches when the event launched. This is just speculation, but it’s a reasonable explanation. 

The SBMM system isn’t perfect, none are, but they are still working on it and I don’t believe they’ll be removing it. 

I apologize if I was unjustly aggressive in that earlier post that upset you. I only post at work and when I’m on nights and tired,  I know I can get a tad...   dismissive. 

Money Talks.  Where does most of the money come from?  According to numerous articles on free to play games: the vast majority of money comes from "whales".  A "whale" is a player who spends thousands of dollars and usually buys every single item.  Usually a streamer but not always.

I believe the current SBMM is annoying the "whales" and definitely annoying the pub stomping streamers.

Attracting new players is great for a paid game.  Most new players will not spend much if anything.

My opinion is keep matches completely random based off best connection AFTER level 20 or after 2 wins.

I can 100% attest that there is a form of total noob lobby for new players.  I made a new account and dropped 3k damage and 15 kills on my first game and meleed the final team lol.  After you play 10 games or so and get the hang of weapons and movements, they should be thrown to the wolves!  "Participation trophies" have no place in online gaming.  The limited time modes should continue be geared more towards below average skill.  The train event fits that description well.  Almost anyone can win if they play the objective.

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@DarthVaapar wrote:

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Wow man. You’re still coming after me? I know I touched a nerve, but jeez. 

Oh, and yes, I do write very well, whether you think so or not. Haha! But that’s not particularly special or anything. Many people around here do.You do too, for that matter. 

Anyway, I reviewed all the pertinent posts on this thread and no, mine do not have any unclear “jumps” or anything of the sort. I also don’t resort to personal attacks simply because someone disagrees with me. Such methods instantly invalidate any points one might have made. I encourage you to consider this going forward. As for those personal insults...  It’s Christmas time, so you get a pass. 

Look, my position is still the same. Calling SBMM a punishment is ridiculous. Everyone should be playing against others of similar skill. A safe space where elite players can have an easy time of it against others of significantly lesser skill, just because they’re very good, top tier  players, is an unbecoming request. I still stand by that position. No one else is catered too in this manner. 

Also, what we have in “ranked” play is not a true ELO. You see the progression system, you must understand this. It was designed for elites, at the request of elites, for them to have  some extra badges and cosmetics to show off their prowess. It is working as intended. 

I also think the Holo-Day Bash event was successful enough to have thrown off the SBMM system. With so many players fighting on the train, the standard lobbies were, for the sake of expediency, having to fill lobbies with mixed tiered players more frequently. This point is more for the average players, who suddenly saw many more elites in their matches when the event launched. This is just speculation, but it’s a reasonable explanation. 

The SBMM system isn’t perfect, none are, but they are still working on it and I don’t believe they’ll be removing it. 

I apologize if I was unjustly aggressive in that earlier post that upset you. I only post at work and when I’m on nights and tired,  I know I can get a tad...   dismissive. 

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This discussion can end if you are going to pretend to act like a troll when you are wrong, but I would understand if trying to discuss ideas is too complicated for you since you avoided acknowledging my response to your reply. You must crave attention if you think I am 'coming after you' in responding to you or referring to you once on my forum post, I would advise you to think twice before suggesting that as my motive next time. I also do not care how well you think that you type and consider that irrelevant to your response and more relevant to your ego regarding your position on the topic of this post, which seems especially true given how you refuse to accept that I think your initial reply made little to no sense. Rest assured that you didn't 'touch a nerve', what you did was dismiss and or ignore most of my post in your reply as well as the entirety of my subsequent reply to you. What you did were make off the cuff arguments with too many presuppositions to count, many of which are untrue, in order to attempt and convince me as well as others that SBMM in unranked games is perfectly fine being left as is or that the feelings I and others have of being punished are not real, irrelevant, and or unreasonable. 

Do I really need to explain how personal attacks do not invalidate one's argument? What you are trying to refer to is ad hominem. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy in which someone begins attacking someone at some personal level(s) as a basis for one's own argument in an attempt to avoid genuine discussion on a topic. Here is an example of ad hominem in response to my argument - "You just want to kill noobs! That's why you made this post!". You see, this is someone who in an attempt to avoid discussing or acknowledging my argument and them presumes and attacks my motive. I also never resorted to ad hominem or insulting you. If you feel insulted by me pointing out the things I have, I'd recommend you cease responding to this post because I think you have an unrealistic idea as to how people should respond to you when you are wrong or write poorly. 

As far as it concerns me in responding to your 'point' in this reply, I have already responded to you. We can go on more about SBMM once you have addressed my reply to your original response on this post. If you think ranked isn't ranked, I hardly know where to begin discussing this with you since you never articulate exactly how you got to that conclusion, I also consider discussing this less relevant to the discussion until you respond to my reply. I have little clue as to how the event relates to this discussion on SBMM in unranked matches. You saying "The SBMM system isn’t perfect, none are, but they are still working on it and I don’t believe they’ll be removing it." is substantive to this discussion on it how? You really respond like you just did not read this post. Did you read it? If you did I would think you would understand how silly it is to compare that to what I am recommending. Finally, and frankly speaking, I have no need for your fake pseudo-apology in which you insinuate I am upset with you. I will add that I am not upset with how you came in to this discussion, and you don't earn any imaginary brownie points in this discussion for suggesting I am. I'm just disappointed you haven't learned from your mistakes, ego, and presumptive attitude because you could have discussed this in good faith.

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@Rajiyn wrote:

My solution to this is just by playing on an alt account ranked to still enjoy the gameplay and to make sure that some games are winable. If I'm with my full main squad I will play unrankeds to face other premades. But alone, hell no. Not doable.

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Again, your and other player's experiences seem to echo the general idea that at some point lobbies are mostly pre-made or unsustainable (To do well) without a full squad. The idea of playing this game with random players and or forming a squad of your own seems to be too hard or just unrealistic at some point. It is unfortunate, because it also becomes unrealistic to play with friends of varying skill levels. Thanks for your input and providing more insight. 

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@DarthVaapar wrote:
@JiboTVGood grief guy, do you even read what you post? Everything you just said was a disingenuous attempt to misrepresent your earlier posts. If you don’t care how well someone writes, then why bring it up in criticism, only to later pretend that it wasn’t you yourself who brought such a silly thing up to begin with?

Crave attention? Seriously? You know what? This is a public forum, so I’m going to just let your words and attitude speak for themselves. I realize that I’m in the minority opinion in this issue, at least here on the forum, but there enough quality people here that can see that you’ve moved way past general discussion and into the realm of emotionally driven rants.

I didn’t apologize because I thought you needed it. Wow... And you speak to me of ego? Laughable. I apologized because it was appropriate. Perhaps you seek “brownie points” when you apologize. Frankly, I’ve never even heard of that line of logic.

I’m not going to pick apart what you say line-by-line, as you seem want to do. Your posts are already verging on TL;DR as it is. Besides, what good would come of it. Such tactics are petty anyway.

Look, I disagree with you. I told you you were wrong. Looking back on all this I wish I hadn’t chosen those words. But it’s ok if people disagree with you, man. It’s not a slight or offense that you must suddenly chase down seeking retribution.

It’s real simple. Players playing against others of their skill level are not being punished, regardless of how they may “feel” about it. The only players who might even have this position are the ones at the highest skill level. For everyone else, this is just standard gameplay.

I’m fairly certain that you’ll likely submit yet another dissertation on the flaws of both my position, and my character, but I warn you, other intelligent people are reading this. They will see drivel for what it is, regardless of how well articulated it may be.

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It's crazy man, it's almost like when someone misrepresents and asserts they know your position, writes in a confusing way, refuses to justify their points or acknowledge criticisms, and is pretty consistently passive-aggressive in their replies that you need to correct and focus in on almost every individual sentence. I wonder why? Maybe those intelligent people you keep referring to could help us both understand why that is and how you definitely are not doing those things, at all. 

I'm sorry, I got distracted, did you respond to my reply? I can only see you trying to avoid (Multiple times now.) responding to the key points in my response calling out your responses. I am calling out what you wrote and how you wrote it as I see it and you seem to be giving every excuse to avoid actually discussing that. You can stop responding to my post if that's the case. You are also not free to attempt and convince people viewing this that I am committing an intellectually devoid attack on your character as my main argument against your position, because my responses have been opposite.

You need to stop conflating minor points for major ones or misrepresenting them, such as where I suggested you may be a troll at the beginning of my response and that you crave attention because you decided to suggest I was "Coming after you." for responding / referring to you on my post. I believe that assessment to be quite fair especially given your smarmy or condescending responses like you saying nothing short of "I apologize for you being upset.". You also conflate me explaining that I do not believe you wrote your point well or as well as you or others might believe for an ad hominem, despite me explaining further in detail as I respond to what you wrote, line by line, while even initially addressing what I believe you could have just as easily been saying - "You're wrong and should suck it up. You're just being challenged. Why should we cater to such a small number of players anyway? Your feedback / perspective doesn't matter because you make up such a small percentage of the community. I think it's fair, and I think a majority of the community thinks it's fair too. You just want to dominate noobs! Wrong!". My responses aren't an 'emotionally driven rant' like you are trying to assert in order to claim some imaginary intellectual high ground or attempt to diffuse the discussion and avoid genuinely responding to main point of my replies. My responses are an address to you misconstruing or misrepresenting my position, cherry-picking parts from my replies, asserting to know my motive in making this discussion post, and also an assessment of what your replies have been so far. You suggesting otherwise is another case of you making leaps when you seem to disagree with people.

You just said "I didn't apologize because I thought you needed it.". I agree, and I already said your apology was fake, I don't recall suggesting anywhere that you actually meant it? I do recall saying you constructed a fake apology to insinuate I was upset with your response. That is what you did. Why you did that, I have no exact clue. Which is why I suggested you were doing it for 'brownie points' or as a troll, 'brownie points' meaning for some imaginary point game where you think you earn more points to feel like a winner by suggesting my arguments are emotionally rash and without facts or logic. I think you made that clearly fake apology the way you did because you thought making me seem to be upset with you would make my argument seem less valid. Kind of like what you are trying to do now, just without the apology part.

You have mimicked my word use and positions enough times, at best I don't think you understand my positions or how to appropriately use terms like petty, disingenuous, misrepresent, etc. You seem to suggest you could go through my responses line by line as if they don't make sense, I'd love to see you do that because I am fairly confident that they made sense as I wrote them. However, I did go through the effort of taking a concise look at what you wrote and came out clearly with where I disagreed and why, addressing what I found to be some pretty clear underlying presuppositions too. Sure, that's what I'm doing, just chasing you down and trying to get one up on you. Dude, you expected to disagree and reply the way you did and not get your position picked apart or expect a followup? I'll refer to what I have already said - I think you have an unrealistic idea as to how people should respond to you when you are wrong or write poorly.

Reading this out, I feel like I've just been baited by a dumb internet troll into an argument. So we're done discussing this. If you think your replies make perfect sense despite my responses, fine, we're done discussing it and I think you are being unreasonable. I have wasted enough time and energy responding to you, enjoy posting elsewhere and thanks for your response, hopefully people can learn something from it. 

@JiboTVSo you did review your post, and still decided to post it anyway? Ok...

Every single attribute that you ascribe to me, you posses. You just demonstrated that in your post. Literally every single criticism of me, you just displayed. Every. Single. One.

It’s very easy to micro-analyze someone else’s post line-by-line, but you should set the bar higher. All that results is ever increasing larger responses. Just look at your posts sequentially.

I will once again ignore your insults, name calling, and personal attacks.

So why don’t we start over. If you are confident in your original position you should have no objection.

Originally you claimed that you were a very good player and that you were being “punished” by SBMM because of this, since you were being matched with others of your own skill level. Please correct me if this interpretation is wrong, and elaborate either way.

the whole point of a BR is that you get tossed into a random game of 100 people with random levels of skills and try to win. What is this pubstomping everyone is talking about. Not everyone is going to play like a bronze nor have they ever even before sbmm. And if you are bad at the game and want to play in lobbies of people around ur skill level then play ranked.

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@xSagez wrote:

the whole point of a BR is that you get tossed into a random game of 100 people with random levels of skills and try to win. What is this pubstomping everyone is talking about. Not everyone is going to play like a bronze nor have they ever even before sbmm. And if you are bad at the game and want to play in lobbies of people around ur skill level then play ranked.

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I think this is an underrated comment. A BR is a competitive environment where you have people of various skills duke it out. I do also discuss the counter-arguments to this claim and how I disagree with those counter-arguments in separate response posts here. If they want to add a ranked mode so it is people of a similar skill, I do not disapprove. But if they planned to just give up all semblance of a casual mode, I feel disconnected from the game I did appreciate. I believe a lot of other players feel or will feel this disconnect as well based on the discussions I have had. 

Ranked does to a good degree accomplish what these people in support of the current state of SBMM imminently desire. I encourage them to play ranked and keep on playing while expressing how they feel.