Forum Discussion

MetroOdin's avatar
MetroOdin
Rising Vanguard
25 days ago

RANKED - Each death should loose you points & why

They should change ranked so that every time you die and get finished you already get point loss. 
Kill should matter more. But dying should matter A LOT more. 
And IF you make it to top 5 only then does your actual death point loss get mitigated automatically. 

The reason they should do this is because it will stop toxic solo pushing behavior in Diamond rank. Which is important as Diamond is a sort of weird plateu where most players can get to, but their skills stagnate and they can't climb. Which then makes them just throw by playing like **bleep** solo pushers, trying to rely on finding aggressive randoms and getting lucky in catching weaker teams with pure aggression.

There's also a massive psychological aspect to the game obviously being the players. And when you take into account how most players behave in these ranks, it's very clear that the game DOES need to PUNISH this solo pushing behavior with a HEAVY point loss. 

Also at no point should players get to LEAVE the match without getting penalized. I think this is important too because too many play toxic, and then abandon match when it is winnable on respawn. So they have a game sabotaging psychology, they see themselves as the "main hero player character" and refuse ALL other ideas on how to win a match EVEN when they get gifted an easy win they will REJECT IT and sabotage it, leave the game, solo push etc. 

So the game needs to MITIGATE these flaws in the players by PUNISHING that. 
if they die in Diamond, they should get ANOTHER -65 right off the bat! 
I.e. -130 points RIGHT AWAY! 

The game SHOULD be designed to incentivize POSITIVE communication and POSITIVE player behavior. Not incentivize and reward NEGATIVE behavior like leaving match or sabotaging by playing as a solo. 
They are just self griefing their own games. I've seen it with like 80% of teammates in Diamond. 

They don't play to PLAY ranked, it doesn't make sense. They're just there to grief, troll, solo push etc. They already have other game modes for this type of gameplay and RANKED is not supposed to reward that at all imo, it makes no sense to build the mode to reward or remove punishment for toxic players. 

If they leave they should also loose their entire rank and be stripped down an entire tier. If they want to PLAY ranked, then stay alive and don't get turned into a Banner. Or AT LEAST they should get punished with three times the point loss, not just -130 but -190. Play ranked or DON'T PLAY RANKED. They can make a decision and think about what they are doing. 

It's also very unhealthy for ranked when everyone thinks they are pro players, but even pro players rely WAY too much on LUCK in ranked, because they are so skilled mechanically they basically can just go full aggression. I even saw a brilliant player wipe 4 squads 1v3 back to back to back, BUT he didn't get any real point gain because he didn't make it to end game... 

So clearly the end game point incentive is too weak. And the punishment for dying earlier is also too weak. 

I do think Kills should count more in early lobbies to stabilize the player ranks more quickly. That way you get lower lobbies learning to be aggressive for points with low risk and low point cost to entry and no punishment for dying. But higher ranks facing higher punishment for dying and risking too much. 

In Platinum it's ok the way it is now even though it's a mess, you can still climb with skill as a solo. But at least these changes need to be implemented to Diamond to fix the "hard stuck" and toxic self sabotaging behaviors of players in that rank. Diamond SHOULD school the players in what is necessary to get to Master via the point system in the ways I have described above. 

If you want to pub stomp, play pubs. If you want to play ranked, then staying alive and forcing players to adopt tactical strategic game sense is important. Especially as players will self sabotage and have extremely unhealthy ego behaviors. Most people for instance won't listen to anyone else as they perceive anyone elses ideas as "lesser" or they believe their shooting skills is all that matters and refuse to listen to good tactical ideas. AND they take ANY ideas at all as a CRITIQUE, which their ego can't handle, that someone else could possibly have a better idea than their own. I see it ALL THE TIME in Diamond. It's a real problem with people and therefore becomes a problem for the entire games gameplay experience as it is based entirely on players choices (as opposed to AI obviously). 

I don't expect a lot of people will even understand the points I made here as they suffer precisely the delusions of "but aggression wins all, even though we keep dying with negative points for 5 games in a row now". I have seen way too many people like that. They don't play for skill or strategy, they play for aggression and luck, which should be hard punished. You have wildcard and pubs for that. 

6 Replies

  • MetroOdin's avatar
    MetroOdin
    Rising Vanguard
    25 days ago

    It's also worth noting that another aspect of the ego and dopamine psychology that comes into play with aggressive players, is that they see all strategic withdrawals from fights as "cowardice" and play aggressive because they are addicted to getting knocks. But this erratic psychology creates a problem as they would rather push and be aggressive and die INSTANTLY, and then NOT PLAY for 10 minutes for abandoning the match, OR not play because their teammates have to run around and find a safe crafter that isn't being camped. And then their team wipes because they are just 1v3 or 2v3. 
    And then these players spend 2 minutes in lobby to load into another match, and spend another 2 minutes LOOTING up again and rotating. 

    So all in all they are clearly incapable of assessing that their playstyle leads to them getting to PLAY LESS not more. Something that the game has to address with the point punishment system I suggested above.  

    So, clearly their own behavior is self defeating, they are addicted to fighting and getting knocks, BUT their behavior leads them to actually play LESS. Rather than reposition for 1 minute to then fight for 5-15 minutes straight (which is great fun obviously), they would rather fight 1 minute and then be dead for 5-10+ minutes as a banner... back to lobby, back to reloot etc, one would think that they would make the correct deduction from this but they don't. It is an addictive behavior, they need the kick NOW and have no forward thinking that goes beyond even just 2-3 minutes. Which is why the games point system should punish it and force them to balance this behavior out for the benefit of all players. 

    This way they will be sent back to Platinum after just 1-2 games if they decide to play toxic, and this will hammer into their head that they will have to rethink what they're doing or just stay in Platinum. Which is kind of what ranked should be designed like after all. 

  • I'm gonna start by saying that I agree with you 110%.

    But I also have to remind you that if your death penalty were to come to pass then all these aggressive "hero delusion" players (and they are, I would wager, the majority) would instantly start whining about how Apex has become nothing more than a cowardice-encouraging camp fest where nobody wants to fight until the final circle where eight squads are frantically looking for rocks to hide behind. Not the way I would describe it, but that's what they will say. It's what they have said every single time the rp playbook has swung to favor placement over kills.

    I really do hear what you're saying, but it's the argument of a solo queue player who wants to get to masters without a stack. I'm not sure that's realistic no matter how good your mechanical skills, or your game sense, or how much the rp system favors caution. But if they changed it tomorrow to work exactly the way you've described I would revel in the moment thinking of all the ego-driven morons who think they'd be at ALGS if their terrible randoms weren't holding them back.

  • sashazyryanov's avatar
    sashazyryanov
    Rising Adventurer
    24 days ago

    There are two big problems with penalizing dying:

    1. You are not always in control of your survival. Your teammate might hot drop you, or respawn you right before another team arrives to the scene. Getting negative points because of someone else’s actions would make solo queuing experience worse than it needs to be.
    2. This will be an additional phycological pressure on players. Yes, Ranked Leagues isn’t supposed to be a walk in a park, but the stress and challenge should be sourced in competition, not in design. With fear of dying reasonable players will be more hesitant to take reasonable fights, which will only make senseless engagements more prevalent.

    Thus I believe that losing RP each time you die is a bad idea.

  • MetroOdin's avatar
    MetroOdin
    Rising Vanguard
    24 days ago

    Well, complaints or not. I don't think they would stop playing though. They complain right now every match, but they don't quit Apex. So that's all that really matters from Respawns Point of view, player retention. 
    Point being: right now they play risky. die, lose points and repeat endlessly and are unable to climb out of diamond as a result completely. So RIGHT NOW the game DOES actually push players towards caring about End Game survival. 
    What I suggest is to further amplify this. 

    And to further add to my point: every match these players throw the game 9/10 times, that's why I brought up the psychological aspects of this behavior. Because from a designer stand point it's incomprehensible that people would behave like this and self sabotage even in a video game. But that's the reality. 

    I'm not saying the game should favor just caution, I am saying that the game should push players to NOT fight SOLO and to essentially take ranked seriously when it comes to tracking and adapting to their teammates actions mid fight and not just be ego pushing solo constantly. Punishing this behavior doesn't mean they will stop fighting, the point is that it should force them to have to consider the tactical aspects of their fighting to make sure they DO NOT DIE or throw. Pushing them to then acknowledge that they have to then play around their team and not just rely on having luck in running into easily broken up teams for 1v1v1v1. And then hope they essentially win 3 50/50s in a row. 

    I think since they do experiment with the RP system every season, they could very easily try something like my suggestions just to get data on what happens. Whether those changes does incentivize team fighting, and disincentivize solo pushing. 

    Technically they could go further: the game already recognizes when you are split from your team. So optimally the game could punish them if they die far away solo from their team. The game can already recognize teammates proximity and warns the players with character call outs "we're pretty far apart" etc. 
    But that would actually make A LOT of sense. Punish the player who splits up and dies far away with A HEAVY solo play penalty. 

  • MetroOdin's avatar
    MetroOdin
    Rising Vanguard
    24 days ago

    Hot drop is not a thing in Diamond rank. I specified that everything below Diamond is fine right now. Diamond is where the real problems begin. 
    Platinum you can hot drop, Diamond you have dedicated drops, you don't get to pick. 

    My suggestions are just ideas, I welcome better ideas on how to mitigate and punish toxic and damaging behaviors that hold back ranked in diamond and up. But I bring Diamond up specifically as it is the skill ceiling for players with JUST aim and no tactical sense. Players who do not develop strategy, won't get out of diamond with just aggressive solo players, they MIGHT get out with a triple stack of course. Which is fine. My critique is targeted at the toxic solo aggressive players who do not adapt to the random teams they get. It's a difficult problem to solve. But I think the psychology aspect I brought up does need to be taken into account for the health of the game and the enjoyment of the players. Instead of letting toxic sabotaging players take over the game. 

    It IS a problem to be solved diamond and up. 

  • reconzero's avatar
    reconzero
    Seasoned Ace
    16 days ago

    "I'm not saying the game should favor just caution, I am saying that the game should push players to NOT fight SOLO and to essentially take ranked seriously when it comes to tracking and adapting to their teammates actions mid fight and not just be ego pushing solo constantly. Punishing this behavior doesn't mean they will stop fighting, the point is that it should force them to have to consider the tactical aspects of their fighting to make sure they DO NOT DIE or throw. Pushing them to then acknowledge that they have to then play around their team and not just rely on having luck in running into easily broken up teams for 1v1v1v1. And then hope they essentially win 3 50/50s in a row. "

    This is very well thought out. And it's also right. The flaw, though, because of course there's a flaw, is that you're assuming that player behavior is readily susceptible to modification. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It also assumes something that every single poster on this forum has always assumed: it assumes that every player who goes into ranked mode is there for the same reason you are: to rank up. It assumes they will come to understand the logic behind best gameplay practices and use them to further the goal of ranking up. It assumes that every player could get to diamond if they just played smart. I genuinely believe that all three of those assumptions are false.

    First, some players go into ranked because they're temporarily exasperated by all the quitting in pubs and they just want to get away from it for five minutes. Some go into ranked because the current ranked map is one they like and that isn't in rotation in pubs at the moment. I could go on all night about what might tempt a player into ranked mode without having any interest in ranking up or playing "optimized" ranked gameplay. There are more of these people than you might think. Maybe not in diamond, but in platinum and below? Yeah, they're there. They're real. And they don't give a tinker's **bleep** about their squadmates' grinds.

    Second, plenty of players start the ranking process to stall out at rank X when they believe that they are entitled to rank X + two tiers. When the system tells them they're wrong they can often get indignant, contradictory, and petty. They'll keep grinding in the belief that the skill-assessment algorithm will "come around" and until it does they don't mind for one minute continuing to do things their own way, common wisdom and squadmates be damned.

    Third, when that player finally wakes up and realizes he's not getting any higher, rightly or wrongly, then he will probably do one of two things: one, keep playing ranked without any concern for outcomes, his or anyone else's, and/or two, he'll start over on a secondary. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. These are rank-locked players. I don't know if you know from the psychological literature what rats do when researches "teach" them that they're in a hopeless situation, but I can tell you it isn't good. Psychologists call it "learned helplessness." Rank lock is a form of learned helplessness and it doesn't ever produce good behaviors. And a game that tries to keep players grinding for as long as possible is just throwing gas on the fire. This is one of those games. It's practically designed to produce the behaviors you're trying to engineer out of the system.

    Wish I had better news for you. You're still definitely right. I just don't think your fix would change much. I'd like to think that it would, but I don't think it would.

Featured Places

Node avatar for Apex Legends Feedback

Apex Legends Feedback

Give feedback about the Legends, maps, weapons, loot and more in the Apex Legends community forums.Latest Activity: 1 hour ago
34,701 Posts