At what level can you last longer than 1 to 3 hits?

@blackeyeriver
"So either sbmm works or it does not. Last time I checked it worked by protecting current Rookie players from Preds, like you want. So which is it? You can't have both."

What about the average player? That's still a huge skill gap not to cover. If sbmm only protects a player long enough for them to get a couple hours of game play under their belt then it's a * system.
It's been a well known issue for a while now that sbmm doesn't protect its players at all.

And what was that about higher skilled players complaining about their matches being too hard? As if they have some sort of right to stomp on players far below their skill level because they're good at the game? That's not how good sbmm works. But with apex, that's exactly what it does.

@blackeyeriver
"You know they use very LOOSE mm right?"

So loose yet I hardly ever run in to players whos skills vastly out match my own.

 Considering Apex likes to pit me and many people like me against players of diamond or higher skill..I'd say apex is pretty loose as it is, more so than fortnite. 

Apex's sbmm can never be decent, because even if they do manage to get a good one in place, they allow it to be ruined by all the smurfs running around in the game.
Fortnite doesn't allow such a thing. So for as loose as it may be, everyone is still getting accurately placed.

It isn't protection in the slightest if you can just by pass it by making a new account.

Heh.. Vastly outnumber your own? Do you even play it? You could run into peeps with 20% win rates vs 3% easily. Same with any other stat. 50 victory crowns vs 0 etc. Their key to success is variance aka less sbmm instead of more. More mm=more sweat in every lobby. Apex community does not grasp this simple idea but they want the opposite... But what you said.. That's just like your opinion man 🙂 and I'm not gonna discuss it further as I know it would lead to a circular argument. 

@blackeyeriver

Yes, I play it. I played it last night to be exact. Got a win the first match I loaded up and the players I went against weren't much more skilled than I was.

Question is: a tighter sbmm is supposed to make it so lobbies are more evenly matched correct?
So if apex's sbmm is actually tighter than fortnite's, why is the skill of the players I run into in fortnite, closer to my own than this * show of sbmm that apex has?
Why is it, when I go into matches I'm getting roasted by lvl 42 smurfs AND level 400 diamond or platinum players? How is that remotely considered tight??

"Their key to success is variance.."
I don't mind a little variation of the players I'm going against, what I do mind is going against a team of smurfs and diamond players I have no business being in lobbies with.

I'm not always going to be the top player in the lobby, nor should I be, but I shouldn't be going against people who have 3k in kills on one legend, let alone the number of combined kills they may have. 

Too tight or too loose, either way apexs mm is trash and needs to be fixed.

@XxColdFangxXok bro, I see you are still either in denial or just ignorant of how fortnite works. In my lobbies I can literally meet anyone from 0 to hero. This is a known thing. It's what makes the game accessible and fun. With a 100% perfect mm you have a 50/50 chance to win a 1v1 with same armour, guns and attachments? So even if it works you would still say it doesn't, just because the dice roll didn't roll in your favour. Tbf apex just stands as a trash game overall when we start to pick it apart....

@blackeyeriver
Whatever dude.
You're just going to continue to argue against anything I have to say. That much is obvious.

My game play has always been different from what you describe on fortnite. 

So idk what to tell you there. 

I play fortnite just as casually as apex, yet it's always been a much better experience for me. 

Look man, I 100% see where you are coming from. It seems like I'm not wording my replies correctly for anyone to get what I'm saying.

You say apex mm is already loose, but it's not. Reason being that you encounter more players of same skill sprinkled with some players above your skill. So, result is you sweat to even kill 1 player as is and when you run into a better player you insta die, so the match feels bad. The issue here is that there aren't enough "bad" players in the lobby because of the bucket system they use - it's simply not vast enough. No one or too few below your skill level in a given lobby. I'd say the mm is pretty tight, too tight already. 

Mm don't bother me personally, not nearly as much in apex as the technical stuff does. Bad servers, their version of lag compensation, no local servers where I'm at, bad footstep audio, hit boxes / hit reg issues that everyone just seems accustomed to etc. I believe these are bigger issues, personally, than, playing at 15 ping against someone better than you occasionally. I think a lot of people can easily blame mm as a result of these issues, just like the op. 

"You say apex mm is already loose, but it's not. Reason being that you encounter more players of same skill sprinkled with some players above your skill."

I'd love to know where all the players near my skill level are at, because I never find them. 

I've included my stats. They aren't great, obviously. 

I've also included a photo of the shiela that killed me.

And the player that killed her. 

I couldn't fit a fourth photo, but their team mate was a lvl 26 smurf. 

This is not an issue due to ping, or even bugs in the game. This is the * mm system we have. 

I don't know what kind of lobbies you're getting, but mine are filled with these. 

You said it yourself that fun was worth more...this is not fun. 

I'm a casual player. I should not be going against players of this caliber. Considering my stats vs those players, I fail to see how apex mm is anything but loose. 

So no. It isn't that you aren't wording your replies properly. 

"Yet it confirms what I'm saying - that we need more bad, average, and good players on all teams, not just some, in some kind of balance."

I believe this was already tried, and failed. 

 No one wants teammates worse than they are and no one wants to be the one holding their team back. 

This is not a good way to form the match making lobbies all it does is add stress to what is supposed to be a fun game by making one player work harder than needed by giving them inadequate teammates and makes the game unplayable for those that can't keep up or learn at a slower pace. 

@blackeyeriver There is nothing about perceptions, it says everything I need to know on the scoreboard.

Screengrab is just yet another game as games are most. Been afc after 40-50 seconds, as, after 4 years of this game, I 95% of the time correctly identify whether I'm on the joke team (which I usually am) or not very early on. Sad thing here is that my teammates continued playing and... yes.

Here we have a fun game, despite me being afc all the way through, because I naturally got two PC kids in an otherwise full console lobby and refused to play with them. Funny to see them get destroyed by the 0.6 AA lobby.

Now, here we have yet another early afc game where my teammates can't defeat my early 1 kill highscore, despite another team is on lvl 22.

Here an example of how one team gets to be op compared to the rest of the lobby, and me being afc again as there is no point in playing a team with rocket launchers while Respawn equip me with two squishy guns.

Anyway, I could post these all day long, but kinda wanna go play... and not Apex.

Well I really don't know what to tell you. But you are playing a different mode to br... This is more in line with arena shooter. 

I don't know. I've never seen arena shooters have the best mm. It's usually sqewed to one team or another. But because it switches up many don't really seem to care. Meh, I don't really care either. It is what it is. As I stated earlier, really don't care about mm, there are bigger issues that affect my loss rate than just playing a better player occasionally in br. 

The question is if supposedly all these "better players" are playing us, who are playing the players below us? Not us, seemingly, that's for sure, so the theory seems to fall apart completely and enforces my theory that more variance is needed from every skill level in the game. 

I still hold the opinion of that most complaints can be traced back to garbage servers, instable connections, hit boxes / hit reg etc. in br at least. Not saying mm is perfect, but other things bother me a lot more. And getting back to the OP's original post - I stand by my position. That if you consistently die in 3 bullets it's likely not a mm issue but rather a performance issue. 

@blackeyeriver
I did say my stats were awful, I also never claimed that stats don't matter.

The point being a person with my kdr in apex should not be going against players like that. It's not that I'm entirely unskilled in the game, I can point and shoot a gun, I can take cover and throw grenades, I can get to the last circle, I'm still learning the best way to use my abilities, but going against people who have played the game non stop since it's release? How is that a true testament of what anyone is actually capable of? How does that create accurate statistics when you get taken out by some diamond or masters that just stomping the entire lobby? If it was every now and then, fine, but no, it's every lobby. Every game. Every time.

You say fortnite is loose, where my kdr is 3.64 in comparison to apex.
You also have been saying a loose mm is better yet you are also claiming to have the same experience in fortnite, that I have been having in apex, yet you don't think apex's mm is loose? How does any of that make sense?
So what? Because you aren't having the same issue that many players like myself have been having apex's mm isn't loose?? It's all sounding backwards to me at this point.
I honestly don't care if fortnites is loose or tight, it's just been better.

You keep saying Variance key but you continue to fail to see that if you have too much of a variation, then you create lobbies that are heavily favored to one side. Which is what apex has now. The tdms? Too much variation. One side heavily outweighs the others a majority of the matches as was shown by Ccbathwater. Yet you shrugged off as just being a different game mode issue.
In the br? You get what I myself showed you that you just shrugged off to try and validate your own opinion more.

"3 bullet deaths don't happen in the best of lobbies often."
The 'best' lobbies are filled with cheaters of all varieties. So your point on that matter seems heavily inaccurate.

Quiet honestly there isn't anything you can say at this point that would help me understand your view.
QED.

If we have the same experience in fortnite doesn't that prove my point instead of disqualify it? Your kd is much higher in fortnite and so is mine, and like I stated before there are obviously (enough) both good and bad players in those lobbies to make maintaining it possible, you just don't know who you're gonna run into. The tighter the mm the more the numbers gravitate towards 1 kd and 5% win rates in something like apex. If fortnite had a tighter mm system we would see more or less something similar, but we don't. There are legit amateur players running around with 4-5kd's and 20% win rates. How is that achievable if the mm was supposedly fair? Kill 4 players or like you 3.5 per match every time if we're all the same? Not gonna happen with tight mm. It would adjust accordingly, like apex tries two do relentlessly to bring that number down. You wanna sweat in fortnite? Play ranked. Then we see similar skills, as it should be. In apex I see no difference in ranked or casual. 

A 50% chance of winning a 1v1 in apex would mean, hypothetically, as I know loot plays a part and other things, that you would go back to the lobby pretty darn often. That's a steep slope to climb if we want everything equal, and a tiring experience. I never said the mm is perfect, and I'm not a fan of mm in general, but don't you think the game would be more fun if you also encountered enemies that whiff their shots? Miss whole clips up close etc? These players do exist but you don't get the luxery of seeing them because of mm. This is why I say it needs more variance, because those players are just missing in action. They have their own lobbies where they are given the same treatment as the rest of us and is a sweat fest in it's own way as a result. 

And yes, arena style shooters from what I've played had the same issue where good players weren't distrubuted evenly among the teams. Destiny, even after they "fixed" the mm still had this same issue. I wasn't shrugging it off, just saying that I'm used to it by now and don't expect it to change. Well, maybe when xdefiant launches, cause no mm, but that's still a while off afaik. 

I missed something? 

Dude I said I get good and bad opponents alike in fortnite and the game feels good because of it. 

You said in apex you mostly get killed by good players, nowhere did I see you say your opponents are bad players or that you regularly kill a lot of them or that they are even in your lobbies. You would not complain otherwise. So, how is it the same? I think that proves what I'm trying to say meaning that the mm is pretty strict in apex in protecting bad players. Yes you'll get the occasional cracked opponent but rarely does it seem like opponents are way worse than you. 

And I honestly don't get why you are even opposing me. I simply suggested to loosen the lobbies, obviously within reason, to make them less sweaty vs what the community seems to want which is to turn the casual mode into another ranked mode. 

@blackeyeriver
"You said in apex you mostly get killed by good players.. "


Go back and look at my kdr. 0.08. You don't get much closer to the 0 out of 0-100 than that. I'm not running into much of the 0 because I AM the 0.
You aren't going to run into many players at that skill level because they're already dead by the end of the game if I even manage to make it there, which is why those I do run into are diamond players or smurfs.


I am not in the slightest protected so no it does not go with what you have been saying. Apex does not protect its players. The smurfs are literally proof enough of that.

While you might find it as opposing, I just don't understand how you think fortnite is looser in comparison to apex when they literally put ai bots in the game to balance out their lobbies and help novice players work their way into higher skilled lobbies. They don't remove the bots from high skilled lobbies either, there's just less of them than actual players so they aren't filling in the blank spaces with players that aren't ready for those kinds of opponents

That's the opposite of loose to me.

Imo apex is already very loose in its mm. It just doesn't have anything to balance it out. Which is why I think it needs to do what fortnite did and add actual ai bots. 

Pros get their easy target practice from bot teams, and weaker players can work their way upwards and gain better skills along the way.

I honestly do not care which it is. It just needs to be fixed. 

That's enough on the matter.

Ok, I see what you mean, I struggle to fathom 0.08 so I don't know what is happening to your lobbies in particular. In mine most seem to be either as good as me just in terms of accuracy alone or a few who are better and it's plenty sweaty too. The average kd in apex is around 1, so it seems whatever is happening to you might be some sort of exception. Do you have high ping by any chance? It could be contributing to this. 

I know all about the Ai, they're easy to spot and don't count towards your kd *when you use fortnite tracker to track your stats* (I looked it up prior) and I don't actually count them as opponents as they are hilariously bad. But tbf, if it's a bad player in terms of Ai or otherwise it still serves to make things less sweaty either way in general lobbies. As for the players at the very bottom you are correct, it would serve them better to play each other mostly, as there's no one else below, but it won't really work for the better or average players the same way as it just becomes ranked without the points then. In my argument I was referring to the average lobby (and better players after that) since most players fall on the average part of the bell curve. 

At this point we have been going back and forth on details and semantics. But one thing we can agree on is that yes, I too think the game would be a lot more fun if they adopted fortnite's formula in some way, whatever that means to either of us. 

What blackeyeriver said a few posts back:

Quote:

"I still hold the opinion of that most complaints can be traced back to garbage servers, instable connections, hit boxes / hit reg etc. in br at least."

End quote

I watched a few YouTubers play tonight and I noticed something.  It wasn't always the case, but sometimes there would be players who did nothing at all to fight back or take cover when they had plenty of time to do so.  I don't mean they panicked and didn't react fast enough, they just got shot down cold right where they stood not even trying. I believe these people had some kind of time delay where they did not know what was happening.  So, by the time they knew anything they got shot, and on their end all they saw was they were walking along and were hit and out of the game. 

I think this explains the complaints I've had on here where some games all I hear is a sudden thump noise when I'm walking along and I'm dead, yet they say on the death screen I was shot 9 times or whatever.  I think they need to adjust for these issues, because I believe it happens way more than we think.  The YouTubers killing these people probably have thousands of dollars of state of the art equipment plus the best routers and connections money can buy since it's their income source.  Idk, but when I read his post earlier this was an idea I had.