http://blog.bioware.com/2017/05/09/mass-effect-andromeda-patch-1-06-notes/
There you go people.
@draqonin uh.. they are "people" who make a crapload of money because they are SUPPOSED to be good AT their jobs. this isnt people complaining about forgetting the pickles on a mcburger, this is incompetence across the board from a developer who (i cant stress enough) is supposed to be the best in the industry. hmm videogames and food, im liking these parallels. so.. rather than paying 10$ for a mcmeal prepared by an unskilled worker who did a poor job at arranging the toppings on a food item, we have paid for a 100$ "dining experience" served by an ugly hunch backed leper with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth and the meat is raw, the vegetables are over cooked, the salad is rotten, the bread is soggy and made with FAR too much yeast, the wine is vinegar, and theres a family of 9 having a food fight with their children at the next table over! unacceptable!
i cant think of any part of the game i HAVENT seen/heard people complain about is my point! they didnt JUST botch the guns in multiplayer, they didnt JUST use terrible animations, they didnt merely have an occasional crash or save issue.. they failed in every aspect of the game! THAT is why people are showing them no mercy! not because they are terrible people, because they are incompetent people who cant even be bothered to say they are sorry for wiping their butts with one of the few successful sci-fi rpg franchises ever! i want everyone defending bioware to go into your jobs tomorrow and just completely suck at what you do, i mean pretend you are making a how not to video for how to do whatever it is you do... see how far you get before they throw you out and tell you not to come back. because you wont get 1/2 the slack bioware has gotten, biowares boss NEEDS them there to fix the problems, YOUR boss doesnt NEED you.
@MEGAF1UX wrote:
@draqonin uh.. they are "people" who make a crapload of money because they are SUPPOSED to be good AT their jobs. this isnt people complaining about forgetting the pickles on a mcburger, this is incompetence across the board from a developer who (i cant stress enough) is supposed to be the best in the industry. hmm videogames and food, im liking these parallels. so.. rather than paying 10$ for a mcmeal prepared by an unskilled worker who did a poor job at arranging the toppings on a food item, we have paid for a 100$ "dining experience" served by an ugly hunch backed leper with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth and the meat is raw, the vegetables are over cooked, the salad is rotten, the bread is soggy and made with FAR too much yeast, the wine is vinegar, and theres a family of 9 having a food fight with their children at the next table over! unacceptable!
i cant think of any part of the game i HAVENT seen/heard people complain about is my point! they didnt JUST botch the guns in multiplayer, they didnt JUST use terrible animations, they didnt merely have an occasional crash or save issue.. they failed in every aspect of the game! THAT is why people are showing them no mercy! not because they are terrible people, because they are incompetent people who cant even be bothered to say they are sorry for wiping their butts with one of the few successful sci-fi rpg franchises ever! i want everyone defending bioware to go into your jobs tomorrow and just completely suck at what you do, i mean pretend you are making a how not to video for how to do whatever it is you do... see how far you get before they throw you out and tell you not to come back. because you wont get 1/2 the slack bioware has gotten, biowares boss NEEDS them there to fix the problems, YOUR boss doesnt NEED you.
I have been in the software industry for over 30 years. You are right to be angry and indignant, but you are misguided in blaming the developers. First, Game Developers don't make a crapload of money. They tend to be lower paid than many similar skilled developers because of the "cool job" factor. Further, unless you are in a start up and hit it big, most senior developers make about as much as a corporate middle manager. That's not a "crapload of money."
If you want to be pissed, be pissed at the game designers who messed up in understanding the basic appeal of the game. Be very pissed at the management at EA and BioWare who were more focused on deadlines than quality -- so much so that they even cancelled the public beta where they had a real opportunity for pre-release feedback. I will bet you that the development and QA staff would have loved another 6 months of development and testing time, but that management at EA and BioWare overrode them -- if the staff even felt they could even voice their concerns. Some places fall into such a toxic mode that people do not even feel safe voicing concerns. Lots of great developers work in shops that are so poorly managed that they work themselves to death to meet some artificial deadline and produce buggy code because that is all they can produce under such crushing circumstances.
How can I tell that it was management? Because no organization with the right kind of partnership between the developers, QA, and management will release such code. Take CD Projekt Red for example. They pushed back their release date TWICE on The Witcher 3. They refused to release the game until they had an acceptable level of quality. THAT is good management. Better to take it in the chin up front and delay the release (and your revenue), rather than drop junk on your customers. What happened? CD Projekt Red released what is arguably the best open world RPG ever made to date (even the [free] DLC is spectacular) , they won a lot of awards. they made a lot of money on it, AND their customers are eagerly looking forward to their next game.
I look forward to EA's next award -- their 3rd Golden "Poo" trophy for The Consumerist's "Worst Company of the Year 2017" to join their wins in 2012 and 2013.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-- George Santayana
Don't forget to vote. :-)
@angrybunnie https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/BioWare-Reviews-E22998.htm
54k plus all the "perks" that come from working for bioware (STARTING pay) JUST to be a tester, 84k for software engineers.. i dont know what sector of software development you have been in for 30 years but its clearly the wrong one (betting not game development or you would have said something.. though i AM aware that some developers are MUCH worse than others).
while i will grant you that CDPR is a great company w3 is tedious, well written, beautiful, garbage. you are doing the same combat 5 min into the game as you are 500 hours into the game, it evolves NOT AT ALL! i would also assume you havent played xenoblade chronicles x, because it bebopped and scatted all over every other rpg made that year (sadly it was on wii u so nobody played it).
back to the matter at hand it is obviously HEAVILY on management that this game failed, but if we arent the fly on the wall we dont know if bioware said "we will have it fixed by launch" or if ea said "you BEST have it fixed by launch". honestly i put this all on bioware because other EA games have come out and been just fine, its NOT a pattern. i do see it a pattern with bioware though. if people are afraid to speak up they shouldnt have those jobs! if you are doing a module for a game and it is having problems you need to say something BEFORE it becomes too late to fix, not throw it in the game and let somebody fix it later.
you do know that EA only won those awards because people on a certain web site i probably cant even mention here stuffed the ballot boxes right? i mean great it made them better at what they do, but use your head for a second.. worse than air lines, cable companies, car companies, or oil companies? it doesnt make sense that a little videogame publisher that 3/4 of the world have never even heard of would win over say BP (for polluting oceans) or air lines (for being absolutely terrible across the board). theres a video somewhere that even tells the story of them stuffing the box, they also do things like get racist literature voted for book of the month clubs and sending rappers to alaska.
if you feel like watching/seeing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8-Ehk71HGs
@MEGAF1UX wrote:
54k plus all the "perks" that come from working for bioware (STARTING pay) JUST to be a tester, 84k for software engineers..
@MEGAF1UX, 84K is about what a corporate middle-manager makes. Equivalent devs in good companies make about $100K or more. I make a lot more, but I am a consultant who teaches other devs how to write better code while I teach their managers how to better manage their projects.
@MEGAF1UX wrote:
if bioware said "we will have it fixed by launch" or if ea said "you BEST have it fixed by launch".
Any manager who says "You BEST have it fixed by launch" doesn't understand what got them into a bad situation and is probably part of the problem. Not to say all developers are perfect, but any good manager would see the problem early and either get rid of the bad developer (if he/she is hopeless) or adjust resources to pair them up with someone who can mentor them and improve their code.
@MEGAF1UX wrote:
if people are afraid to speak up they shouldnt have those jobs!
I once was trying to help a Senior VP of Development with his organization, and I told him that people were afraid to talk to him. He responded, "No one has ever told me that." LOL. When people work in a organization where they get pounded for speaking up, they and their coworkers learn not to speak up. The better ones find new jobs and the org spirals downward. If you ever want to get into management, I suggest you read "The Empowered Manager" by Peter Block (or any of his other books).
@MEGAF1UX wrote:
if you are doing a module for a game and it is having problems you need to say something BEFORE it becomes too late to fix
You are 100% correct. Who's to say that they didn't? Maybe they did and were overridden by management. However, the other side of that coin is that with good management and QA practices, the developer shouldn't need to say anything. Transparent development, QA, and management processes should keep managers well aware of project status and quality levels. There is over 40 years of published work on how to manage software development and tools to help. There are automated Continuous integration systems that run unit tests automatically every time you check in code and provide statistics about code test coverage. There are issue tracking systems and automated project boards that let you see up to the minute status. Some good ones are even free.
Generally, developers are more aware and want to work in these kinds of environments. Although, I have seen an uptick in the number of managers who now understand the need for good processes. Good software development processes, and management processes like Scrum and Kanban, are very transparent, so if a project goes off the rails, it means that it was driven off by a management team that did not know what they were doing, cut corners, and operated more on wishful thinking than reality.
As for your comments about EA. You may be right. Perhaps, the problem might be solidly in BioWare's team. Then again, that also means that EA didn't see the warning signs, and they should have.
One more thing. About the "54k plus all the "perks" that come from working for bioware (STARTING pay) JUST to be a tester"...
A real, professional QA person is invaluable. They review and QA all aspects of the project including architecture, module designs, UX design, systems integration, load conditions, working code, and more. And, they write lots of code to automate tests.
IMHO, they are underpaid and underappreciated. A really good QA professional should earn at least as much as an equivalent developer, but they rarely do.
@angrybunnie wrote:
One more thing. About the "54k plus all the "perks" that come from working for bioware (STARTING pay) JUST to be a tester"...
A real, professional QA person is invaluable. They review and QA all aspects of the project including architecture, module designs, UX design, systems integration, load conditions, working code, and more. And, they write lots of code to automate tests.
IMHO, they are underpaid and underappreciated. A really good QA professional should earn at least as much as an equivalent developer, but they rarely do.
Perhaps but I think you'll find that there are a helluva lot more jobs that make less than that, than there are jobs that make more than 54k in this world. So I can understand why people would think 54k is a nice salary.
I personally don't care for multiplayer. I play games for enjoyment and most of my online game experience with random public players ware not very enjoyable. Due to different play styles and people that just plain want to ruin the fun for other players. That is why I stick to single player content 90% of the time.
I enjoy this game and have like 200 hrs on it, every play through I hope they would patch it before I finish so uncompleted quests, not completed due to bugs, can be completed. Well this seems to be wishful thinking. I stopped playing a week ago and read the news everyday to see any news on the next patch. It is frustrating to see nothing about single player. First it was a multiplayer DLC release with some fixes. Now its a multiplayer patch again.
Single player news is only "there is a patch coming soon". Really is that all we get. Please just update the known bug section on these forums, so we can see what your working on. I don''t need a exact date or time just a general time frame and some indication that the bugs we are having is being addressed. "Really Soon" does not say much. Your really soon can mean six months where as mine is the day after tomorrow.
it would be nice to know what's being worked on from time to time.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
it would be nice to know what's being worked on from time to time.
It seems to me that the issue lies in the definition of "from time to time" between BW and the players.
well, from time to time, i mean more than never...
---edit
i was speaking metaphorically, no need to tell me they tweeted once.
54k is really good "TO START"! i mean sure you have to be qualified, but at first it is still alot of process learning for sure. while i know people who have for example moved to another town for 3 months to binge code for 70k (dude stayed at the "Y" and everything) and another who makes well over 150k a year (nuclear industry) they both fill very specialized positions. honestly.. and im sure @angrybunnie isnt going to like this.. but they are sitting on their duffs all day pushing buttons. not saving lives, not stopping crime, not swinging a pick or shovel, not building sky scrapers.. they are risking NOTHING, sitting in a climate controlled room tapping their fingers all day. im sorry, but they DO make bank compared to a teacher, police officer, fireman, laborer, or emt/paramedic for a VERY comfortable job. the LEAST they could do is perform their jobs competently! after all theres people who make ALOT less with ALOT more on the line.
I think they need to patch their Communication before patching the game.
@PandaTar wrote:
I think they need to patch their Communication before patching the game.
They need a patch to reality and expectations, but then without the mass hysteria and bitching, what would have to talk about?
I'm 99.9% certain that if they had talked about fixing a bunch of single-player things that people would be screaming that how dare they ignore their paying customers playing multi-player.
They, in effect, can't win for trying.
@PandaTar wrote:
I think they need to patch their Communication before patching the game.
You almost got me. I've got my coffee right next to me but I wasn't drinking at the time I read this.
BioWare have commented on what they were working on in the past, had to change their mind and then were called liars.
Just look at the trouble Hello Games got into for talking about what they were working on.
All good comments, really. I cannot argue with everyone who said $54K is a nice wage and and so on. I also happen to think that Teachers, Police officers, and Firefighters are underappreciated -- especially in states like Wisconsin where they have had cutbacks and screwed with their retirement. Further, having done a lot of work for healthcare companies, I can tell you that some developers and QA folks DO save lives and protect people. Even a button-pusher and accountant at a nuclear plant contributes to its smooth functioning and thus help to protect us from disaster. So, while some contributions may vary, everyone who goes out each day and works hard is contributing and deserves good management, respect, and a good wage -- be they a firefighter or someone who makes their coffee at Starbucks.
As for communicating, there are even companies out there who post their issues lists publicly and let users vote on the issues they want to see fixed first. Devs even post comments and fix ideas. Of course, their management makes the ultimate call on priorities, but the users get a pretty good picture of what is coming. There is no reason that BioWare has to be so closed-mouthed. Despite what apologists and fanbois may say -- and we have a few of those here,
angrybunnie wrote:As for communicating, there are even companies out there who post their issues lists publicly and let users vote on the issues they want to see fixed first. Devs even post comments and fix ideas. Of course, their management makes the ultimate call on priorities, but the users get a pretty good picture of what is coming. There is no reason that BioWare has to be so closed-mouthed. Despite what apologists and fanbois may say -- and we have a few of those here,
They are once bitten, twice shy after ME3. Basically, the reason the Devs don't talk anymore? Rabid, demanding fans with unrealistic expectations.
funny, i don't think i actually had any expectations this go around... though i still preordered this time. i must be a sad excuse for a... something, something, something.
@MEGAF1UX, a lot of very competent developers get caught up in this kind of crapola because they are in an organization that is poorly managed. You seem to want to blame the developers. I am a big believer in treating people like professionals and listening to your team -- THAT is leadership. Even the best developer cannot make a difference if his or her managers will not listen to, and respect, his or her professional recommendations about schedules, process, and other areas. I have seen it way too many times in my career. Like I said, the good ones give it an honest try, but often end of finding another job rather than try to influence a company hell-bent on 80 hour weeks and unrealistic schedules that ruin people's health and personal lives. The term "Death March" is often used to describe these projects.
On the other hand, a good management team can take a development group that is full of slackers and turn it around by implementing better processes, salvaging people that are salvageable through training, mentoring, and incentives, and by hiring new, more competent people to replace the hopeless cases.
If a release goes really badly, it really is a management issue because they are either not leading, not listening to the professionals that work for them, or they are allowing, or even encouraging, shoddy work -- often because they don't feel empowered to push back at their management, stockholders, or even customers.
I was not thrilled that CD Projekt Red delayed The Witcher 3, but I respect them telling for us that they were not going to ship the game before they felt it was ready. They are saying the same thing about Cyberpunk 2077. Yes, I am a bit of a fanboi for them, but really, my comments are more about the courage and integrity of the management decisions. We can agree to disagree about the game itself. :-)
@angrybunnie are you by chance talking about amplitude studios (developer of endless space and endless legend) when you say "there are even companies out there who post their issues lists publicly and let users vote on the issues they want to see fixed first" because.. well, sega is now their publisher.. so i dont think we will be seeing THAT particular bit of brilliance again.
ofcourse everyone deserves to be managed in a way that maximizes their potential, but until i see a barista take a bullet or run into a burning building i will never count them as important as a first responder. maybe its just my coarse view of reality but too many people THINK they have lives despite the fact that they do nothing to improve the world. i DO look forward to the rise of machines in that manner, it will be great to have a machine run into a burning building to save a family rather than having the task fall on humans. as you mentioned before we already have software that can troubleshoot code, so im astounded baristas are even a thing, weve had machines that can deposit fluids in a cup for decades after all.
if you must be a fanboy of anything.. you couldnt do much better than CDPR. i too respect their ideology and approach (plus you gotta love them for GOG). in an industry where i generally hate developers i once loved (bethesda, firaxis, sega, gearbox, no really i could do this for an hour) i really have nothing bad to say about them as developers.
@mcsupersport reddit? what do they think we are all 12? why wouldnt they be looking >HERE<? more of their asinine b/s! what next, "oh we check the feedback on fatchix.com so leave it there if you have any"? their entire approach is just STUPID, and ill be damned if im going to stop calling a spade a spade at this point.
for all those people crying about them not doing anything for single player.. YOU arent their long term sustainability, YOU arent the ones getting your friends to buy the game to play WITH you, and you arent the ones who will walk away and not look back. theyll fix the single player mode 20 times before they release all the paid DLC for this game (remember all MP dlc is supposed to be free) and they know from past experience that each time theyll pull you back in to atleast try again. single player people are easily regained, take a look at marvel heroes on pc or even darkspore.. once a multiplayer game has its population drop past a certain point its pretty much impossible to get it back (props to EA for keeping darkspore up as long as it did.. keeping the servers up for over a year with like 23 people a day playing the game is NOT something SOE would have done). so focusing on FIXING (see: NOT adding to) the multiplayer was the only real move they could make.
@MEGAF1UX, no I was not talking about amplitude, specifically. I am more of a casual gamer, so I rarely get involved at this level of discussion.
I think I will disagree with you about the value of people's contributions. I love the Chinese concept of kung fu -- the concept, not the cheesy 1970s David Carradine TV show. The idea is that one achieves kung fu in mastery of something -- whether you are a martial artist, baker, programmer, carpenter, or barista. The Japanese use the term kaizen to describe organizations focused on continuous improvement. I love and admire people who take their profession or vocation seriously and want to continuously improve their skills. By your terms, I do not risk anything. However, I spend 5 to 10 hours each week outside of work studying what I do so I can keep up with the rapid pace of technology, and so I can do a better job of helping people and organizations grow. And I get to write some cool software along the way. ;-) I am not a firefighter or police officer. I do not run into burning buildings. But, I have made a difference in a lot of people's lives. Whether helping them to be better professionals or helping them give customers get better service, get vendors get paid on time, have more efficient manufacturing, or whatever. I do not run into burning buildings, but maybe someone I mentored wrote the GPS software that gets the firefighters there in time to do so. You never know.
Sure you can buy a Jura fully automatic coffee machine, but I like and value the human touch.
As for CDPR, OMG, hah! I didn't realize they did GOG. LOL. I am glad they did not go the way of Valve and drop game development altogether.
@angrybunnie yea, it makes sense that CDPR does GOG if you think about their stance on DRM. infact at one point you could get the first witcher game free just for having an account there.
i DO understand your point with the whole self-improvement thing (i think its actually a taoist concept) but i dont think most people who work part time at starbucks have that level of commitment. YOU may, and thats great but i think alot of people do their job for a paycheck (DEVELOPERS INCLUDED) not for enlightenment or to attain perfect poise or anything of that nature. at the same time i am a hard core gamer (retired nearly 20 years ago) and generally hear about other peoples jobs. you can put importance on anything really, i can do nothing but listen to an icu nurse whinge about their job for 2 hours and im improving their life by giving them an outlet for that stress/disdain/misery.. is it really my accomplishment though? hes been doing it for like 20 years and the job has a 12 year burn out rate.. it must be accomplishing something. i guess i dont register it as important.
im going to guess that you are over 35.. NOT because of your position, but because of your work ethic. maybe YOU should work for bioware! they are hiring after all.
@MEGAF1UX, "listen to an icu nurse whinge about their job for 2 hours and im improving their life" -- that what they call therapists. ;-)
Hey, people find meaning where they can. I try not to judge (but i do anyway, don't we all?).
Age 35 was many years ago for me. I'll give you a hint, though. As a kid, I remember watching the Sound of Music when it was new in the theaters (my ticket was $0.25, really) and remember when William Shatner's Star Trek was a new show on TV.
BioWare may have job openings, but I am not sure the environment would be one that will appeal to me. I am always available for consulting. ;-)
