There, I said it.
I know you(Bioware) want me to pick Reyes, and made her one of the few killable characters in the game, but she's straight with me and the world, has a beautifully complicated backstory, and both the game and her will allow me to meet her snark for snark.
Sloane great pick
Sloane great pick
Yeah I also pick Reyes
@Kondaru wrote:If I don't shoot him I am no more or less an ally than I ever was AND all I did was prevent him from killing Sloane. The 'war' that follows is all on him/them - as is any cleanup action if Sloane dies. I can't claim credit for shortening any bloodshed - nor do I get the blame if blood flows. Not my war to start or stop.
You are absolutely right - from Ryder's perspective. From perspective of Collective agents: You just decided that many more of them will die in a war that could have been avoided (without Sloane Outcasts surprisingly easily disperse). So when You visit Collective's hidden base again they are fully aware that probably more then half or them will die because of Your decision. Is it surprising that they believe You to be their enemy?
Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. ๐
@jpcerutti1 wrote:Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. ๐
Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right... ๐ ๐
Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA. :-(
@Kondaru wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:Heh. They never thought I was a potential ally, so, no. I did not find them continuing to shoot at me on sight disingenuous. I found it harder to believe they were shooting at me regularly while they were trying to convince me they were the side to pick over Sloane. I fail to see why they decided that would be an effective recruitment tool. ๐
Uh... Perhaps they were... You know... Presenting their guns to You. Just to display how worthy they are, and how well armed. Probably they were not gunning for You, it is just that their *aim* was lacking... But... Well, uh... Your Ryder is still alive... So *seemingly* they were not really trying to kill him/her, right? Right... ๐ ๐
Yes, I find it a bit hilarious that both Outcasts and Collective random mobs are automatically attacking Ryder in badlands. It is obviously for gameplay purpose, and Devs put some really odd comments in-game to "explain" the fact (like that "badlands are free to all" or something). It is quite similar to the mages/templars thing in DAI on the first open world map (Hinterlands), but I still believe it made much more sense in DAI than it makes in MEA. :-(
in dai i just figured it was the red lerium causing both the rogue templar and insane mages to massacre... ah, just about everybody, because i doubt raiding a few war ravaged farmers repeatedly would pay for enough lerium to fuel a coffee pot, let alone either side of that particular conflict.
Drugs-
Trust Reyes or don't, but when he is in charge if he wanted them gone...
This is not exactly true: Reyes never wanted to "govern". He is an opportunist, and he usually works with criminals (in a ~similar way that Vetra does). He opposes Sloane, Roekaar fanatics, and other threats - but he is not truly a *vigiliante*. He is not interested in making laws, he is not interested in reducing crime. He simply dislikes when people are mistreated, when honest merchants and craftsmen cannot get rich, when society decays... And even so, it is probably only because poor society makes his illicit trade more difficult.
He is obviously not deprived of positive emotions and goals (after all he helped Dr. Nakamoto with his clinic, right?), but he is far from being a do-gooder, and he is DEFINITELY not a paragon of justice.
Reyes is not going to fight pirates, cannibals, or drug dealers unless they become a real threat (or unless they get rich themselves). It would not surprise me if he allowed some low-lives to produce and deal drugs. On the other hand I would be very unhappy if *his own men* produced and dealt drugs.
Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing, Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad, Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys, etc. etc. etc. If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers, especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "
Side note: I have yet to see Verta form a massive covert para-military criminal organization and try and take over control of at least one planet, for nefarious purposes or not. Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern, but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"๐๐ฟ
Guerilla War-
Every Guerilla organization claims it either is an independent country or government or represents an independent country or government.
Collective does not.
Who is in charge when Sloane dies then? Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.
Torture-
You apparently haven't found the torture room out in the Badlands yet. Definitely the Collective, definitely a lot more than a beating. Go find it and get back to me
You are right about the room - I have seen it. It was used for interrogations. There is even a datapad there that explains that the last "victim" was an Outcast pirate that captured and killed one of the Collective agents. Collective wanted to learn about their friend, as they hoped to release her.
It does not surprise me that interrogation room looks scary - actually that is the whole point. You are right that it is another example where Collective agents gave a thorough beating to someone - but once again, it was administered to Outcast criminal rather than to civvies. So it is still a bit better in my eyes than what Outcast do
Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from, I'm sorry if that isn't true for you. They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people and mostly stopped this time to go escape an Outcast patrol. Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest
Also, on behalf of Outcast Command, The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!
Fewer people know the story of when David grew up, became king, and had an adult son of his own. (...) I feel like somewhere in there is an analogy to Reyes
It is a nice parallel, but I believe it matches Spender rather than Reyes. Do You rally think that Reyes stops Sloane from helping others? Like, I do not know... From beating civvies and selling drugs? ;-)
Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might. Plus, people were starting to blame the Rokaar murders on the Collective, and that's bad PR
Her final option is to give him to a representative of a government she is still more or less at war with who shows up and promptly demands she hand him over.
As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...
[Facepalm] And Ryder represents/works for whom?
Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).
Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.
Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?
Vehn Terev is a traitor and a spy and admits it. By the laws of war he can be killed on the spot even outside of pirate colonies.
Uh... What law of war? Is there some intergalactic law that binds Milky Way species and Angara alike? Is it some custom on Earth that government of one country is allowed to kill subjects of another country because they broke some laws or regulations in this other country? Has Vehn Terev broken any of the Kadara laws? Or has the Resistance or Moshae herself - the only parties that were betrayed - asked for Vehn Terev to be killed?
Ummm... yes to pretty much all of it. The Geneva Conventions are international agreements signed by pretty much every nation on Earth and represent the laws of war for humanity. The Red Cross/Crescent have a lot of information on them on their website. Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version, but it is unlikely to be significantly different. The Angara probably had something similar as well, but it has probably been lost due to the Scourge and the Kett. Nevertheless, the Resistance recognized his actions as being punishable by death.
If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution, although your own government will often work to try and limit those punishments or get you sent home. North Korea is currently arresting Americans, probably for being American, but charging them with breaking the law, so, legally, there is nothing the US can do about it.
Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy. He is an officer operating without uniform in a foreign nation without that nation's permission, which makes him a spy and punishable by execution. He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England, and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.
Just as a note, Evfra was trying to bring Vehn Terev home, execute him, and sweep everything under the rug, kind of like Sloane gets accused of doing, except the Moshe busts him and rubs it in his face
High Noon/Base-
Robin Hood has never shot the Sherriff in the back in any portrayal I've seen.
There is a nice serie by Angus Donald, in which Robin Hood seems almost to be a head of mafia.
But You are right.
So let me give You another example: Han Solo shot Greedo in a "treacherous" way, which is even more evident in the original (not enhanced) version of "New Hope". Is Han Solo so bad? ;-)
I love Han Solo, but for most portrayed as being self-centered and ruthless for most of a New Hope.
I would also argue there is a difference between looking a guy in the eye who has tracked you down and has a gun pointed at you and shooting him is a lot different than inviting him to the cantina and having Chewy hiding in the corner waiting to shoot him in the back
i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it.
Given we are 157 frequently extensive posts deep in an argument over which semi-minor bad guy is more good we're probably all stark raving mad. Just marshal your arguments and keep having fun.
Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.
Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing,
I beg Your pardon: could You please quote me the sentence where I stated something like that? I really do not want to take it personal, but I hate it when people put something into my mouths that I have never said. Please, don't do that.
And once more: I see no proof that Reyes became a drug dealer, which is the important part. "Not preventing others from dealing drugs" is much different from "profiting from drugs".
Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad
And I still say that Reyes is solving many problems because they hurt people, without need to be *accounted* for them. Roekaar murders, Dr. Nakamoto's clinic, allowing Keema Dohrgun to rule over Kadara. At the same time I was always admitting that Reyes is a rogue, and that he is mainly interested in himself.
Once again, I would appreciate if You checked my previous posts.
Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys
Uh... Never said that Reyes was truly a good guy, but I certainly stated that I had seen no proves of him ever going against anyone but bad guys. Could You please point me to any contradiction in my posts?
If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers
No, why? I believe myself to do do some good deeds, like helping others in their problems, some charity from time to time, I have a work that is strongly (though indirectly) oriented on saving lives... But even though I hate drugs I have no intention on going out at night and fighting drug dealers.
DO YOU actively fight drug dealers?
especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "
And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.
Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern
Uh... PLEASE, do watch Star Wars again. Palpatine starts as Supreme Chancellor and turns into Emperor. How can You say he doesn't want to govern? ๐คจ
but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"
Uh... PLEASE, do play Mass Effect Andromeda again. Reyes has never governed anything other than Collective, and even there he was more of a secret leader than actual governor. And Collective itself was never about governing anything.
Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.
Hm... Perhaps I am simply eager to perceive more shades of gray than You do. When one gang is outright in mistreating, torturing, killing, and terrorizing civvies, dealing drugs, and overthrowing governments; while the other gang is mainly oriented on smuggling, stealing from the rich, and actively clashes *only* with other powerful criminals to trim them to an "acceptable" level... Well, sure thing: I would prefer to have no gangs at all, but I *do* find the second gang to be much better and morally superior to the first one. Lesser of two evils, as many people said. The thing is that difference between those two evils is astronomical to me.
Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from
Uh... Perhaps I need to replay some parts. Could You please tell me where You have seen ripping out fingernails and active use of blowtorches to torture people on Kadara? I am serious.
Also, could You please point me to any of my posts when I am telling that Collective restrains from torturing people? I am quite sure that I was always telling that Collective is simply more careful in selecting *whom* to torture. Collective agents torture Outcasts who are "brave" enough to kidnap, to mob on civvies, and to torture others themselves. Outcasts are not so picky.
They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people
While I find it possible - even probable - that they indeed tortured a lot of *Outcasts*, there is no actual *proof* on that. Once again, interrogation room NEEDS to LOOK scary - that's the point. Blood was from many individuals, but it doesn't mean that it came from interrogated prisoners.
And once again, PLEASE accept that You are defending a moot point: I did admitted numerous times that both Outcasts and Collective do torture people.
Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest
"Resisting arrest?" Do You even believe what You are saying? ๐ฎ
But OK... Broken bones because a common guy was too poor to pay a tax, and then wanted to avoid being arrested IN ORDER TO BE SENTENCED TO DEATH
vs.
ripped out fingernails because someone killed a dozen of Your colleagues, and then kidnapped Your girlfriend (and possibly knows where she is kept).
Right... I do not think that there is any need for me to comment on this AGAIN.
Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might.
Well, there is still a slight difference between Reyes and Absalom: Sloane really doesn't care about exiles other than her own Oucasts. And if You meant that Reyes' sister was violated by Sloane's man? I don't know, there is nothing in-game about the fact. Perhaps we will learn in the sequel.
As far as I can tell Sloane is only at war with the Kett. And possibly with the Nexus...
[Facepalm] And Ryder represents/works for whom?
Uh... Nexus.
So?
You want me tell You why Sloane allows someone from Nexus to thread into her throne room? I guess that she believed Ryder to be a gutsy envoy, but I am definitely not trying to get into her head. A lot of what she does make no sense to me.
Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).
Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.
Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?
Uh... But it was You who suggested that she had *no option* to. I just pointed to You that she had. Now You are telling me that Sloane had no reason to care about Aya or the Nexus. But if such is the case then she had ABSOLUTELY no reason to sentence Vehn Terev to death. Moshae is Aya.
So as far as I understand You are now more apt to acknowledge that Sloane murders people for petty reasons whenever it suits her? ๐
The Geneva Conventions are international agreements signed by pretty much every nation on Earth and represent the laws of war for humanity.
Geneva Convention was established in 1949 AD, and is officially supported by 196 countries. Human history counts at least 100'000 years, and there are currently about 206 recognized countries on Earth. The Convention is neither universal, nor we can have any expectations that other species would ever wish to adhere to it. Plus Sloane is as far from supporting Geneva Convention as she can be: please note that the Convention established protections for the wounded and sick and protections for the civilians in and around a war-zone. Kadara is one big war-zone.
Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version
Why? ANYTHING to support that conclusion? Like, perhaps Citadel Counselors asking own Spectres (which are allowed to do things such as blowing buildings full of civilians - see Saren) to spare all the damaged Geths and to imprison them instead? Like using genophage on Krogans (it would be more like Hague Convention, but there were still many civvies between Krogans)?
If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution
Sure thing, but only for crimes that I had committed in/against this country. Vehn Terev committed no such deed. As far as I can tell there were something like two laws on Kadara, and he had broken none of them.
Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy.
Nice, but untrue. When Vehn Terev comes to Kadara, he is no longer collaborating with Kett.
He is an officer operating without uniform in a foreign nation without that nation's permission
Technically, Vehn Terev is no longer working for the Resistance, so he is no longer a soldier. Hence he is no spy. Also Sloane does not sentences him to death because of him being a spy. She does so because some of her Angaran subjects believe him to be guilty of betraying Moshae.
He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England
Pope belongs to Catholics and is a head of own country. Just go ask Muslims. And I do not really see how Queen of England belongs to me or my countryman - she is a head of her own country.
and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.
"Arguably" - definitely "arguably".
The only international laws that I can think of would be deportation and/or extradition.
I could even give another Bible parallel for Sloane sentencing Vehn Terev because of Angaran accusations, but I believe it could offend some people so I will refrain myself.
Just as a note, Evfra was trying to bring Vehn Terev home, execute him, and sweep everything under the rug, kind of like Sloane gets accused of doing, except the Moshe busts him and rubs it in his face
True. Are we discussing Evfra now? ๐
I would also argue there is a difference between looking a guy in the eye who has tracked you down and has a gun pointed at you and shooting him is a lot different than inviting him to the cantina and having Chewy hiding in the corner waiting to shoot him in the back
True enough.
I would say that Han used exactly the tactic You described *several times* in the movies ( like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIuKWhWzYis ), but You are mainly right that the scene in MEA is almost unique. Not in the idea of course, but in the execution. And I do doubt if You accept anything that only bases on a similar idea.
Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.
Now, THAT I would like to see! ๐
@CasperTheLich wrote:
i have to say, just about everyone in this thread is stretching a lot of stuff to fit their solution to the reyes/sloane civil war mess. i think i've been fairly reasonable, though we usually don't have the faculties to make such judgments about ourselves... i could be stark raving mad and just not realize it.
I believe, in this case, simpler reasons work wonders. Reyes looks lame and Sloane looks like a badass maniac. :eahigh_file:
