Re: Why didn't the Nexus have it's own Pathfinder and S.A.M node?

@VitesseLumiere

"...There is a Pathfinder for each major species..."

Except for the Krogan.  There was no Krogan Pathfinder.

And still, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have a Pathfinder.  All a Pathfinder is essentially is a person with a stronger connection to a designated S.A.M. than other people.

Having a S.A.M. during the construction of the Nexus and ultimately in aiding to make crucial decisions would have made logical sense.

But then again, civilian operation or not, it would have made sense to have the Arks capable of defending themselves (they made sure the people could defend themselves but not ships, vehicles, or the Nexus??) but we can see how that turned out.

Yep, spot on correction.  There was a sizable enough force of them on the Nexus to be used as mercenaries before their betrayal there and subsequent relocation to Elaaden.  Perhaps their numbers are much smaller and therefore didn't qualify for an Ark due the events in the ME trilogy and the genophage.  Let me rephrase that - by numbers I mean those who would "want" to come to Andromeda and those that would have been "allowed" in the grand scheme of things.  Definitely a good bit of information missing there.

Not sure I agree with you on the role of Pathfinder though.  SAM is a major part, but they are specially trained and hand picked.  They are unique representatives in each of their species that all seem to have history even before becoming a Pathfinder that is recognized.  Because of the unique role of the Nexus, I still don't think a Pathfinder would be the right fit.

Good point that their population might have been too small.

I am not saying S.A.M. is not important or that the Pathfinder isn't important but considering that they handpicked a bunch of people to be able to take up the mantle should they lose one, it just seemed that maybe 3 of the chosen could have went to Nexus and one of them could have had a S.A.M.

In fact, my suggestion lends more credence to how major S.A.M. is then them deciding not to have a person with a S.A.M. present for the construction of something of great importance that the arks would have to rely on.

If S.A.M. is so major (which it is) why not have it be involved in the major project that is the Nexus?  Doesn't make sense.

Alec tied the SAM nodes to the Pathfinder (they aren't mutually exclusive).  Working with Garsen and the Benefactor, he was the one responsible for the creation of the Pathfinder team, their purpose, and responsible for the creation of the SAM nodes.  So, in Alec's mind, I could see where he would not predict the need for the Pathfinder/SAM team on the Nexus.  Does that mean it was the right decision?  No.  But I can see how in a hurry and the plan having been that the Arks would have been there sooner originally, he wouldn't have assigned that team to the Nexus.

There is also a lot of missing information we just don't know, so that makes it even more difficult to really answer this question beyond conjecture.  For example, SAM nodes can communicate with their Pathfinders across the galaxy.  Ryder's SAM is never transferred to the Tempest (which makes sense as the Hyperion would be safer given the unknown's the Tempest is flying into).  But Ryder's SAM is also never transferred to the Nexus.  He stays on the Hyperion, but gives active assistance to Nexus personnel.  I bring this latter part up because I believe Alec intended his SAM for a much broader purpose than the other SAM nodes.  But how that was supposed to play out pre-scourge is the question.

Just was doing some additional research and re-watching some of the Initiative and Pathfinder videos online.  One of them makes a statement I had forgotten - that the Pathfinder teams operate under their own authority.  That may also be why the Nexus didn't have a Pathfinder/SAM.  May have been a political or bureaucratic issue due to the authority interplay.

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Alec tied the SAM nodes to the Pathfinder (they aren't mutually exclusive).  Working with Garsen and the Benefactor, he was the one responsible for the creation of the Pathfinder team, their purpose, and responsible for the creation of the SAM nodes.  So, in Alec's mind, I could see where he would not predict the need for the Pathfinder/SAM team on the Nexus.  Does that mean it was the right decision?  No.  But I can see how in a hurry and the plan having been that the Arks would have been there sooner originally, he wouldn't have assigned that team to the Nexus.

There is also a lot of missing information we just don't know, so that makes it even more difficult to really answer this question beyond conjecture.  For example, SAM nodes can communicate with their Pathfinders across the galaxy.  Ryder's SAM is never transferred to the Tempest (which makes sense as the Hyperion would be safer given the unknown's the Tempest is flying into).  But Ryder's SAM is also never transferred to the Nexus.  He stays on the Hyperion, but gives active assistance to Nexus personnel.  I bring this latter part up because I believe Alec intended his SAM for a much broader purpose than the other SAM nodes.  But how that was supposed to play out pre-scourge is the question.

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The only alternate plan the Ryder's SAM had was Ellen. She was the goal for that SAM all along. She was also the reason for the differences between that one and the others. The main reason for this SAM interfacing more directly was because it was required to try and save her, it's also the only reason their SAM is more advanced, because of the direct interfacing and because it's been active for longer.

Im fairly certain Alec never had other hidden agenda's for their SAM than his wife's survival. It was just a result of that goal.

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Alec tied the SAM nodes to the Pathfinder (they aren't mutually exclusive).  Working with Garsen and the Benefactor, he was the one responsible for the creation of the Pathfinder team, their purpose, and responsible for the creation of the SAM nodes.  So, in Alec's mind, I could see where he would not predict the need for the Pathfinder/SAM team on the Nexus.  Does that mean it was the right decision?  No.  But I can see how in a hurry and the plan having been that the Arks would have been there sooner originally, he wouldn't have assigned that team to the Nexus.

There is also a lot of missing information we just don't know, so that makes it even more difficult to really answer this question beyond conjecture.  For example, SAM nodes can communicate with their Pathfinders across the galaxy.  Ryder's SAM is never transferred to the Tempest (which makes sense as the Hyperion would be safer given the unknown's the Tempest is flying into).  But Ryder's SAM is also never transferred to the Nexus.  He stays on the Hyperion, but gives active assistance to Nexus personnel.  I bring this latter part up because I believe Alec intended his SAM for a much broader purpose than the other SAM nodes.  But how that was supposed to play out pre-scourge is the question.

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Just as a thought, the Benefactor has a lot of stuff moving behind the scenes and full access to all schematics/programs of the Initiative, including SAM. Ergo, there could be a SAM that is/was installed on the Nexus that no-one but the Benefactor & minions knew about.

Actually, if you want to go full on conspiracy theory, there are an awful lot of top of the line Initiative toys, including armor and Tempest-class vessels, that somehow got marked missing or destroyed between launch and arrival. It could possibly be assumed that, like Jien Garson's death, the Benefactor (or competitors) used the Scourge "accident" to hide what was going on, namely, moving people and materials off the station, up to and maybe including any hidden SAMs.

Double Conspiracy with a cherry on top: Jian Garson isn't actually dead. "Sorry Alec, but I had to play you..."

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

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Potentially any additions to SAM still could be centered around the same goal. As you said, lack of information BUT., the more knowledge and functions SAM has the more chnaces there is of eventually reaching the end goal of a cure - but that could also be extended to a newer goal of keeping his kids safe. (And in turn, humanity).

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

---

Potentially any additions to SAM still could be centered around the same goal. As you said, lack of information BUT., the more knowledge and functions SAM has the more chnaces there is of eventually reaching the end goal of a cure - but that could also be extended to a newer goal of keeping his kids safe. (And in turn, humanity).

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... or taking over the Galaxy. 👿

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

---

Potentially any additions to SAM still could be centered around the same goal. As you said, lack of information BUT., the more knowledge and functions SAM has the more chnaces there is of eventually reaching the end goal of a cure - but that could also be extended to a newer goal of keeping his kids safe. (And in turn, humanity).

---

... or taking over the Galaxy. 👿

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Unlikely but you never know..

Its pretty clear his goals were always his family.

They are the only ones with the upgraded implant.

Its clear now he never intended to pass Pathfinder onto Cora ... tbh she would have had reason to be plenty mad, he burned her badly tbh.

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

---

Potentially any additions to SAM still could be centered around the same goal. As you said, lack of information BUT., the more knowledge and functions SAM has the more chnaces there is of eventually reaching the end goal of a cure - but that could also be extended to a newer goal of keeping his kids safe. (And in turn, humanity).

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... or taking over the Galaxy. 👿

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NO!  Think happy thoughts!  Lol

But I think some of us are getting to caught up in the title "Pathfinder" which is why I said that they were just people with a connection to a S.A.M.

When you look at it that way, a person connected to a S.A.M. can serve any purpose as needed.  Sure the Pathfinders were meant to function outside of anyone's authority (something Tann doesn't seem to understand) but you could just have a S.A.M. user that isn't a Pathfinder whose goal was to ensure the Pathfinders would have their starting point at the best it could be in the form of the Nexus.

That person, whatever title you decide to give them, can still fall under the authority of the others.

But that's just my opinion.

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Just was doing some additional research and re-watching some of the Initiative and Pathfinder videos online.  One of them makes a statement I had forgotten - that the Pathfinder teams operate under their own authority.  That may also be why the Nexus didn't have a Pathfinder/SAM.  May have been a political or bureaucratic issue due to the authority interplay.

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

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@VitesseLumiere wrote:

Ellen kicked it off, but after her "passing", things didn't stop there.  I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain things like "Profiles" are only available for Ryder's SAM.  The human Pathfinder team was well aware of SAM, but when Alec started using the advanced military functionality of SAM, all of them were confused.  So, that goes beyond Ellen.  In the long run, the goal was for SAM to find a way to cure Ellen (hence the cryo), but that end goal doesn't preclude other uses for SAM, which Alec clearly implemented.  I don't think we have enough pieces of the puzzle to say with any certainty what Alec's full intentions for SAM were, but I think it's safe to say it was more than just saving Ellen once she was in cryo.  Alec would have used SAM for other advanced purposes to ensure his Pathfinder team could find, secure and help grow a world for his kids and Ellen.  While at the same time, Alec's SAM could grow in ways the other SAM nodes could not (with the hope of one day figuring out how to cure Ellen).

So, I agree that the end goal is Ellen.  But I believe Alec developed his SAM for other purposes as well that go beyond Ellen.  The Profiles and surprised Pathfinder team are just an example.  I think a lot more will be revealed in the future.

---

Potentially any additions to SAM still could be centered around the same goal. As you said, lack of information BUT., the more knowledge and functions SAM has the more chnaces there is of eventually reaching the end goal of a cure - but that could also be extended to a newer goal of keeping his kids safe. (And in turn, humanity).

---

... or taking over the Galaxy. 👿

---

Unlikely but you never know..

Its pretty clear his goals were always his family.

They are the only ones with the upgraded implant.

Its clear now he never intended to pass Pathfinder onto Cora ... tbh she would have had reason to be plenty mad, he burned her badly tbh.

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The Pathfinders are selected per major race, basically each race that has an Ark and I suspect that the SAM node is specified towards each individual SAM and not something that you could just use interchangeably. So what sort of Pathfinder would it have to be?

What's weird to me is not that the SAM nodes are on the Arks and not the Nexus but the fact that the Pathfinder ships are not on the Arks.

As for the Krogan, I guess they didn't have an Ark and I guess they recognised Krogan as useful but didn't want to bring too many either as they were considered rather dangerous.

In the end though, the whole concept of a Pathfinder is a bit weird. The Dutch translation would be Padvinder, which is the word we use for a boy scout (or girl scout, it's gender neutral). Maybe the Pathfinder should've been called SAM husks, but that might not sit well with some people.

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@EgoMania wrote:

The Pathfinders are selected per major race, basically each race that has an Ark and I suspect that the SAM node is specified towards each individual SAM and not something that you could just use interchangeably. So what sort of Pathfinder would it have to be?

What's weird to me is not that the SAM nodes are on the Arks and not the Nexus but the fact that the Pathfinder ships are not on the Arks.

As for the Krogan, I guess they didn't have an Ark and I guess they recognised Krogan as useful but didn't want to bring too many either as they were considered rather dangerous.

In the end though, the whole concept of a Pathfinder is a bit weird. The Dutch translation would be Padvinder, which is the word we use for a boy scout (or girl scout, it's gender neutral). Maybe the Pathfinder should've been called SAM husks, but that might not sit well with some people.

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If each pathfinder/SAM is a different race, then obviously Nexus' Pathfinder/SAM is a Krogan. Might explain why "someone" might keep their existence hidden

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@fudgietroll wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

The Pathfinders are selected per major race, basically each race that has an Ark and I suspect that the SAM node is specified towards each individual SAM and not something that you could just use interchangeably. So what sort of Pathfinder would it have to be?

What's weird to me is not that the SAM nodes are on the Arks and not the Nexus but the fact that the Pathfinder ships are not on the Arks.

As for the Krogan, I guess they didn't have an Ark and I guess they recognised Krogan as useful but didn't want to bring too many either as they were considered rather dangerous.

In the end though, the whole concept of a Pathfinder is a bit weird. The Dutch translation would be Padvinder, which is the word we use for a boy scout (or girl scout, it's gender neutral). Maybe the Pathfinder should've been called SAM husks, but that might not sit well with some people.

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If each pathfinder/SAM is a different race, then obviously Nexus' Pathfinder/SAM is a Krogan. Might explain why "someone" might keep their existence hidden

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Not sure if it's that obvious though... Clearly they wanted to limit the power of the Krogan. Giving them a Pathfinder would've been a bad idea from the Initiative's point of view in that sense.

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@EgoMania wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

The Pathfinders are selected per major race, basically each race that has an Ark and I suspect that the SAM node is specified towards each individual SAM and not something that you could just use interchangeably. So what sort of Pathfinder would it have to be?

What's weird to me is not that the SAM nodes are on the Arks and not the Nexus but the fact that the Pathfinder ships are not on the Arks.

As for the Krogan, I guess they didn't have an Ark and I guess they recognised Krogan as useful but didn't want to bring too many either as they were considered rather dangerous.

In the end though, the whole concept of a Pathfinder is a bit weird. The Dutch translation would be Padvinder, which is the word we use for a boy scout (or girl scout, it's gender neutral). Maybe the Pathfinder should've been called SAM husks, but that might not sit well with some people.

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If each pathfinder/SAM is a different race, then obviously Nexus' Pathfinder/SAM is a Krogan. Might explain why "someone" might keep their existence hidden

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Not sure if it's that obvious though... Clearly they wanted to limit the power of the Krogan. Giving them a Pathfinder would've been a bad idea from the Initiative's point of view in that sense.

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Maybe from the Benefactor's point of view. Based on the book and game Jien seemed pretty ok with them, and I assume Alec, who seems to be the Initiative's other up front power player, would probably be good with them too, especially considering how similar they are to him.

I think it would be a really interesting thing later on in DLC or MEA2 where we do find out about a SAM core and Krogan pathfinder and we have some side missions to find them/recover the SAM node/find a replacement, and possibly wind up deciding who the future pathfinder is and whether the node goes back to the Nexus or to New Tuchanka

Personally, I suspect that the Benefactor has at least one SAM, possibly from the Nexus

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Personally, I suspect that the Benefactor has at least one SAM, possibly from the Nexus

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That would be an interesting twist. Not sure about the Krogan thing but it would make sense if the Benefactor was a Pathfinder with SAM and everything.

Yeah, i'm not sure either if Krogan would be fit as pathfinder. After all they destroyed Tuchanka themselves... 🙂

Krogan are more into killing (eachother) lol,  fight, merc jobs rather than development or sightseeing around... 

Just like Peebee said: "Tension among Krogan???? You don't saaay!" 

Or like Mordin: "Krogan history Filled with defining moments..... most of them bloody. Hope this one better." 🤓

Yet, it could be an interesting twist, could open their mind to a better future ...maybe if they could somehow find out the genophage was cured?

>edit<

Shepard:    -"i'd say curing the genophage would be worth 1 planet"

Wrex:          -"Or 10. You haven't seen how fast we can pop them out"  

🥳

I don't think enough Krogan came with the Nexus to qualify for a full Pathfinder. And Drack personally hates the idea of a Pathfinder having that much control/input on the meat body, so he'd probably try to stop it. 

The clan is only a couple of hundred people, so the colony is pretty dang small. The humans havel 20,000+ (20k + Nexus Humans).

Huh, I wonder how they convinced the Quarian Ark's pathfinder to implant a SAM node? That would be one seriously odd bird to be that different from his race's stance, I think.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

I don't think enough Krogan came with the Nexus to qualify for a full Pathfinder. And Drack personally hates the idea of a Pathfinder having that much control/input on the meat body, so he'd probably try to stop it. 

The clan is only a couple of hundred people, so the colony is pretty dang small. The humans havel 20,000+ (20k + Nexus Humans).

Huh, I wonder how they convinced the Quarian Ark's pathfinder to implant a SAM node? That would be one seriously odd bird to be that different from his race's stance, I think.

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Given the one race, one pathfinder balance of power the Krogan are the default option for Nexus pathfinders, especially since the pathfinders are assigned to the vessel transporting the bulk of their race, which, for the Krogans, is the Nexus. The Krogan's personal force modifiers and potential reproductive rates balance out their smaller numbers, and also I doubt anyone would be willing to go inform them that they don't qualify for a pathfinder.

As for the Quarians, does Admiral Xen have any kids?