Why Can't We Lie Sometimes?
There are times where I'd like the option to be "dishonorable" and you know something? I'd be okay if it had an adverse affect on my relationships with certain people (or improved it in some cases)....
Forum Discussion
@PretzleMe wrote:
There are times where I'd like the option to be "dishonorable" and you know something? I'd be okay if it had an adverse affect on my relationships with certain people (or improved it in some cases).
For instance, when you rescue the Moshae and you need the Cardinal to open the pods in order to save as many people as possible. The Cardinal won't do this unless you agree to spare the base. My Ryder definitely would have agreed to those terms, allowing the Cardinal to open up all those pods, and then blew the base up anyway.
Dishonorable? Maybe. Don't care. And if you do, fine and I understand, but I'd like the option.
So there are times where I'd like the option to go back on my word.
What are your thoughts on this?
I like the idea, but think that particular choice would of gotten you the worst outcome. Just letting Angara out of pods to blow them up would look bad on your resume. They were never going to give you the option to do both. 😞
how about that contagion quest?
the first time i did that quest, that shack at the end, once we cleared the hostiles from the exterior i positioned jaal to have a vantage point inside the doorway, and peebee tucked around the back, i would have liked to have been able to let the terrorist go with his bioweapon and had jaal snipe him as he left the building. only to have the cutscene put both right next to me. *sigh* my tactical planning completely wasted.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
how about that contagion quest?
the first time i did that quest, that shack at the end, once we cleared the hostiles from the exterior i positioned jaal to have a vantage point inside the doorway, and peebee tucked around the back, i would have liked to have been able to let the terrorist go with his bioweapon and had jaal snipe him as he left the building. only to have the cutscene put both right next to me. *sigh* my tactical planning completely wasted.
I really missed renegade Shep on that one. SO many ways that could go down differently.
As you'd guess, I like anything, mechanics, writting or whatever, that would give a certain depth as to how we lapidate Ryder's path along the way. The Anti-Flirting and Snapping thread already showed you some of my feels around added dialogue, so I might not repeat them. Regarding the fact we should be able to deceive, I think that would require learning.
Remember when we play poker against Gill? SAM actually offers a way to deceive and cheat, as Ryder may comply or not. As far as that goes, it felt like SAM didn't have a problem with it. We are not entirely sure why. He might have considered the outcome that didn't have anyone physically hurt? Why did he offered to cheat?
Anyway, on your proposed setting, I think Ryder and SAM could learn together, as situations in which the need or capability of deceiving for a bigger picture could be brought on the table, as long as you knew how to do it and be convincing about it. The sooner you started using these additional, the more adverse and, maybe, more numerous they would be presented. Perhaps even opening to more than one option of deceiving – that would work, in a sense, like Renegade and Paragon, which had new dialogues unlocked as you had Shepard more inclined to do things that way – and so should Ryder. I believe, though, that to be convincing, such options, like some of my propositions were laid bare, would require good timing and quick thinking. Perhaps not as quick as a regular timed-action for pushing a button, but perhaps similar in time than Witcher 3, around 5 seconds to decide. Failing with timing wouldn't precisely make you fail in your choice, but it could bring a third, random or unknown, unpredictable outcome, like the enemy/deceived one would wonder, and perhaps start testing you, make you answer some other things and watch your reaction and, if you failed even more, you could be the one deceived in the end.
I'm sure you are, just like me, tired of the input of: this would be hard to do, they won't do that, blah, blah, blah. So, that's my take on the subject, regardless how they would that, in first place.
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
I like the idea, but think that particular choice would of gotten you the worst outcome. Just letting Angara out of pods to blow them up would look bad on your resume. They were never going to give you the option to do both. 😞
i think it's more about getting everyone out you possibly can and just before leaving the landing zone having sam kill the power generators. not, quite the same thing, however, i feel that was more about the lulz, well, it was good on that count. gave me a good laugh.
@CasperTheLich wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
I like the idea, but think that particular choice would of gotten you the worst outcome. Just letting Angara out of pods to blow them up would look bad on your resume. They were never going to give you the option to do both. 😞
i think it's more about getting everyone out you possibly can and just before leaving the landing zone having sam kill the power generators. not, quite the same thing, however, i feel that was more about the lulz, well, it was good on that count. gave me a good laugh.
A little of both - but I am sadly certain the game was never going to give us the option of pulling off a Kirk style answer to their Kobayashi Maru scenario. At least, for me, I would have had to break an additional promise I made to Jaal within the mission. While it was made in haste, and a little rash in retrospect, there's no way I was going to do that to Jaal.
".... I also shot the Cardinal in the head when the opportunity arose (which was very satisfying), so I feel that I lied or deceived him to get what I wanted..."
I have to agree with @CasperTheLich on that one. I don't even feel like it is implied that I won't kill them nor is it implied that they won't kill me. But that's just my opinion. I could see how one might make those assumptions.
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"...if i was going into detail, i'd have additional alternate situations based on possible reactions..."
Oh I know you could have went into more detail, I just didn't feel like you under explained. It made sense to me and seemed solid.
"....how about that contagion quest?..."
Lol, this is actually the mission that motivated me to make this thread. In a way, that is likely why I called it a "dishonorable" option in the first place and using that option there would have just cause for fueling the Roekkar somehow.
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".... In my first playthrough I was actually surprised I got the option at all and well, who am I to refuse such a gift? 😉..."
I'll admit, I was surprised that I got the option to shoot them, but I also thought that one of my squad members (Jaal actually) would drop them no matter what happened. And I know I couldn't resist that option no matter how many times I've done that part. Shooting the Cardinal is a must for me, lol.
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"....Just letting Angara out of pods to blow them up would look bad on your resume...."
Except it wouldn't have blown them up as they manage to escape before the Kett arrive which means they too, like us, would have not been blown up. And yes, I know they were not going to let us do both but what I am saying is that, as it is now, they should have as the only thing stopping us from doing both successfully, as things stand right now, is us keeping our word.
On the flip side, my complaint would also be alleviated if they just wrote it better and created a situation where it isn't just your word stopping you from doing it. Something that makes it to where returning to the base to break it a second time would be impossible. Or makes it to where the code to blow the base up would have countered the code to open the pods and therefore you would have to lift the explosion code in order to save the Angarans.
But, since they wrote it how they did, my issue is that, as things stand, it makes no logical sense that we have no option to go back on our word there.
@PretzleMe wrote:
"....Just letting Angara out of pods to blow them up would look bad on your resume...."
Except it wouldn't have blown them up as they manage to escape before the Kett arrive which means they too, like us, would have not been blown up. And yes, I know they were not going to let us do both but what I am saying is that, as it is now, they should have as the only thing stopping us from doing both successfully, as things stand right now, is us keeping our word.
On the flip side, my complaint would also be alleviated if they just wrote it better and created a situation where it isn't just your word stopping you from doing it. Something that makes it to where returning to the base to break it a second time would be impossible. Or makes it to where the code to blow the base up would have countered the code to open the pods and therefore you would have to lift the explosion code in order to save the Angarans.
But, since they wrote it how they did, my issue is that, as things stand, it makes no logical sense that we have no option to go back on our word there.
I share your, and Kirk's, frustration with the solutions the game offers to many of its' problems I am asked to solve.
A clearer one may be the ability to go back on your word to the Asari who lies to you about the drug on Kedara. Who says it is over and done with? My gun still works and I have an AI that specializes in finding things and solving crimes.
With the Turian attempted murderer at first I was frustrated, and then I just had to laugh. "Game, are you telling me that attempted murder is not a separate thing than murder and either he cannot be retried or attempted murder isn't a banishable offence?" I reloaded and left that quest incomplete - the game can sort that out. 😃
"...I share your, and Kirk's, frustration with the solutions the game offers to many of its' problems I am asked to solve..."
I don't think you do because you say things that I am not saying. First off, I am not saying many. I said some and on at least one occasion I said a handful.
Secondly, I stated an either or situation I would have been okay with in this case which means the situation was written poorly and that is ultimately my real issue.
As it is written now, if you choose to release the Angarans, they escape before the Kett Arrive... if you choose to destroy the base, you do so as your evac is pulling out before the Kett arrive.
This means, that as currently written, the only reason (in game) you don't do both is because you gave your word to a Kett (depending on your choices, a dead one at that).
While your example also works, the one I gave here also works just as well.
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"....What also kind struck me as odd was the conversation with the Moshae afterwards. She was rather ticked about me not listening to her advice and that I don't value her people as she does but couldn't see the value of me deciding to save her people..."
What's funny is, I didn't even think about this until you said it. You're right. That is bull dunk, lol. How can she say we don't value her people when we wanted to save them?
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"....You want to kill Kett CRUISERS by yourself? Note the plural there...."
Do I want to take on the base by myself like I already did and have done with at least one other Kett base? Yes. Yes, I do.
But then again, why would I be unable to take resistance members back there with me?
@PretzleMe wrote:
".... In my first playthrough I was actually surprised I got the option at all and well, who am I to refuse such a gift? 😉..."
I'll admit, I was surprised that I got the option to shoot them, but I also thought that one of my squad members (Jaal actually) would drop them no matter what happened. And I know I couldn't resist that option no matter how many times I've done that part. Shooting the Cardinal is a must for me, lol.
Yeah that would've been something that you'd expect. What also kind struck me as odd was the conversation with the Moshae afterwards. She was rather ticked about me not listening to her advice and that I don't value her people as she does but couldn't see the value of me deciding to save her people. That conversation just really didn't make senses to me.
