Scoring

Set plays and diversity is for beer league practice and when you're ahead by a few - It sucks but that's just how she goes.

Goalie learning is an odd one because it sounds great on paper but I'm sure we'd eventually find good ways to manipulate/cheese that too

rsandersr47 wrote:

Backhand, forehand, backhand, goal. I feel trying to make good plays and set up 1T shots, or anything else just seems far less effective than just backhanding for every goal..

The reason this goal works is because the defending team has completely collapsed and allowed a player to get in-close and one-on-one with the goalie. If you're allowing this to happen often or if you're getting this chance often, it means the defending team (in both cases) needs to adjust. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

we either need some type of dynamic goalie behavior patterns or some type of club created thresholds so that your goalie will behave differently than other goalies and scoring can become diversified a bit more.

Scoring can only be diversified if players take diverse chances. 99% of the players in this game keep trying the same goals over and over - not because they find success with them (although obviously that's one incentive) but because most people aren't creative enough to try anything else. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

Ideally I'd play with/ against human goalies but not many want to play goalie, esp for any long stretch of time.

Just because you and the people you play with don't enjoy goalie doesn't mean there aren't literally thousands of players out there who ONLY play goalie and have fun with it. It takes time and patience to master the role. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

We will be 2 v 0 and instead of using a 1T we pull off and let the other get the backhand goal because it's almost 100% where as even a seemingly perfect 1T chance you risk a crazy acrobatic save or your guy messing up the shot.

Again - you're describing a scenario where a goalie is all alone against 2 offensive opponents and you're complaining that making a quick maneuver in-close has a high percentage chance of being a goal. I don't see the issue here.

It would be terrible to program logic into the game so that just because someone has scored a goal or two the same way previously in the game, the goalie should auto-save future attempts. That is introducing linear goal scoring logic which would be the death nail of this franchise. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

I actually think the goalie plays better in threes eliminator.

strongly disagree. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

I mean I'm using the constant backhand spam too because I feel I have no choice if I want to win but man does it limit any creativity..

You're limiting yourself though. Having a win-at-all-costs mentality where you have developed the belief you can only try one goal because it's so successful for you is not the game "limiting your creativity". There are other ways to score.

That's like saying the drink machine forces you to buy Coke because it's choice #1 and saying it won't let you buy Pepsi just because it's choice #2. 

"The reason this goal works is because the defending team has completely collapsed"

Sure.. you can always blame the defense, thats easy to do in any game.. it doesnt mean its not a goalie issue as well.. we dont see goalies play this poorly in the NHL and thats the problem I'm getting at. Poor argument imo.

"99% of the players in this game keep trying the same goals over and over - not because they find success with them"

No, it's because it's successful. Not many were spamming D2D 1T in older games in HUT, now they do. Not many were looking for backhand over 1T when 1T had higher success. Not many went backhand over forehand when that had success. When the short side wrister worked people used that. It's because of the success.. there's no way you're arguing in good faith at this point. People use what has high % to score. Being creative is not winning games at the highest rate. Sure it's more fun but people use the same things that get them wins. You're just being untruthful here.

"Literally thousands"

🤣  do you understand what "Literally means" *looks up monthly top 100 goalies" 33 games played for #100* *looks up centers and sorts top 100 by games played, 90* I mean... lets try to be fair here. You've suggested you can be critical of the game.. try to show SOME truth in that statement.

"Strongly disagree"

I mean nhl stats are viewable to the public bud. Out of curiosity I looked it up. Looking at the last day/ week of 3s and threes respectively to get a fair comparison shooting % for 3's is averaged out to 35.27 for top 10 weekly 3's and 27.67 for threes. That's the lowest amount of time I could search for either to adjust for updates. So disagree but everyone I've played with between the modes has a similar experience. Threes goalies are somewhat better at stopping a backhand and make better acrobatic saves vs 1T. It's not by a ton but when EASHL goalies are having worse numbers that's not a good look. If I'm being fair, I understand some numbers could be inflated by human goalies playing poorly. However, everyone I know vs cpu goalies have pretty consistently performed better vs 3's CPU than threes. They are more likely to use desperation saves. 

Your coke and Pepsi thought.. just threw logic out the window 🤣 it only works if coke gives you far more energy (if that's what you're looking for) than pepsi. Sure I could get the Pepsi and get less energy for the same price because I like the taste (i dont drink any pop) but I'd rather reach out to Pepsi and ask them to add more caffeine to the pepsi. That's what I'm doing here. It would also be dependant on the fact that pepsi was deliberately lowering their caffeine despite the outcries for more. I'm not sure if you watch any NHL but if 2 players had a 2 on 0 you would never see 1 pull off because going 1v0 on goalie was better.. you just entirely missed every point I made, seemingly on purpose. However, you've shown to do this plenty of times. I strongly suggest a logic course.

I guess I'm here to ask for better goalies. I understand your job is to defend the title to no end. I just want a better product. The game has potential it's just lacking some things. I can praise the games for what it does well but you're allowed to be critical and offer suggestions for improvements. 

TTZ_Dipsy 

Not so much "learning" just adjustable thresholds. Imagine every club had their own custom thresholds. Some goalies will hold their post a bit longer shutting down a short side wrist/ snap/ back but may give up one when someone is cutting across and going far side. Maybe some plays the puck carrier more rather than his partner coming in for a 1T. Maybe adjustable aggressiveness. Some will look to poke or step up against an attacker but this would allow more goals when 1T from a low angle (near the goal crease when passing from a higher attack point) or someone cutting in. Every CPU goalie could then behave a bit differently and every game you would have to quickly figure out how to attack him. I'm not suggesting it would be extremely hard to score, but we wouldn't see near 100% breakaways. They could be high for players who had fast twitch reaction speeds but lower for players just memorizing button patterns and timeliness.

Dynamic learning would be much harder to add I'm sure. Random dynamic changes could be easy though. Maybe each period or game the goalies behavior values change. This is all I meant. Every year we have diff shots that have higher percentages the only thing allowing this is the goalie behaviors/ thresholds. Currently they give up the forehand backhand because it pulls them off their post and the player can pull it back too fast to save. If he held the post longer he may give up an easier forehand. The other thing that COULD be good is players simply losing control of the puck or less likely having a perfect backhand. The devs want hockey to be more clean (and to a degree I agree) than it is in real life, but if they had a system that allowed for losing control when going backhand/ forehand too quickly and not having high puck control it could help mitigate this issue some. Maybe high puck control comes at the cost of a player's speed. So a wheels player with 99 speed can't just race down trying to beat a defenseman and have perfect handles to BFB. Idk, just spit balling ideas.

rsandersr47 wrote:

I understand your job is to defend the title to no end.

rsandersr47 wrote:

there's no way you're arguing in good faith at this point.

rsandersr47 wrote:

You're just being untruthful here.

Please stop attacking me. I have said nothing untruthful and I always discuss things in good faith. The constant personal attacks from you is why engaging in your topics is always so grating. You dont' want to 'discuss' anything. You just want to bash aspects of the game that you aren't particularly skillful at and I will always rail against that because the dumbing down of this game in favor of players who need instant gratification will ruin core gameplay. I'll always fight against a linear approach to such a dynamic sport. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

we wouldn't see near 100% breakaways. They could be high for players who had fast twitch reaction speeds but lower for players just memorizing button patterns and timeliness.

So you want the game to adjust the percentage of the chance of scoring based on the 'twitch' reaction of the puck carrier or whether or not they're still 'memorising button patterns and timeliness".  Plus you want the goalies to stop any goal that was scored previously in game. On top of that, you want teams to be able to pick their goalie thresholds for saves. All of this leads to mundane, linear scoring that's based on rock-paper-scissors rather than dynamically setting up plays.

The dumbing down of the game like this would be atrocious. 

All you do is strawman EVERY argument in these forums and pretend you're not then say people are attacking you lmao! It's insane! When did I say I wasn't skillful? Strawman. When did I ask for dumbing down? Strawman.

If your read, I think I made it fairly clear that I'd like the game to prioritize a player reacting to the goalie than button patterns.. I never said they need to stop every goal scored in previous games. Strawman.

"All of this leads to mundane, linear scoring that's based on rock-paper-scissors"

Yes, it would be FAR better to have a better system in place but the devs have never shown to be able to do many things correctly. Currently we have only "paper" so yes, having a goalie have multiple looks it would diversify gameplay. Saying you want dynamic gameplay but being against diversifying goalie play just makes 0 sense. You're arguing for BFB goals. Braindead gameplay. I can score these. It takes 0 skill. At least if goalies were made to be different I would likely not score on nearly every breakaway.

Let's recap this discussion so we're  clear because you said I don't like to discuss (when the previous reply to someone else was "literally" (see how I used that word) me explaining how a system could work to diversify gameplay and lead to more "creative" plays.

>I suggest fixes to goalies

>you tell me the human defenders are bad and human forwards shouldnt use the same ways to score. You tell me that scoring "can" only be diversified if players score differently. You also suggested that I said if someone scores twice the same way the goalie will make a save and it will cause linear play and be the death of the game (bit of a slippery slope for an already sinking game, also I never even said this. Again, you've created a strawman at best or just falsely put words in my mouth at worse. Again, arguing in bad faith, I'm not attacking you  on this I'm trying to clearly convey how you're arguing in bad faith)

>I agree that sometimes defenders make mistakes and tell you that competitive players are always going to use the highest percentage scoring chances if goalies are predictable/ not balanced (ie scoring "WILL" only be diversified if goalies are diversified.) I remind you that this discussion is only about goalies. Not forwards, not defenders, not even humans. I give stats to back up my claims and refute those that you made.

>you tell me I'm attacking you and i must be bad at the game. 

there are so many logical fallacies that I'm not going to begin to list them. I attack you because you do not EVER agrue in good faith. I'm not sure if its purposeful or not. Lets talk JUST goalies. 

Look I'm happy to discuss this with anyone but you are extremely toxic. You don't know how to discuss anything with anyone on here. What is your solution for making cpu goalies better, or do you truly believe they are in a good place? If you think 50% shooting is okay, then fine. That can be your reply to my suggestion. Blaming humans when the post is about cpu goalies is just not arguing in good faith.

I want games to feel different nearly every post I make suggests this. Unlike you ALWAYS defending the game, I don't ALWAYS attack the game like you seem to beleive. Look at my latest posts. I just praised the game for the silly bobblehead mode. It was a silly mode but it was fun because it was different and fresh. I suggested ways to improve on it. I've praised nearly everything the game has done to create change... except one's mode. I've not played that since it came out. With each and every one of these modes I've created a topic detailing ways to improve on them. I'm able to see shortcomings in things and praise the things that are good.  If you think this game is 100% perfect that's cool. If not, you're allowed to discuss where the game could improve. You can blame poor development where warranted. You can praise development when warranted. Loading into WoC is faster (praising) the store, switching between modes, customization, clubs uniforms still resetting (blame on poor development) you don't have to find a reason to cover for this (unless you're actively working for EA and this IS your job)

Lemme attempt your type of reply:

Please stop attacking me and my experience and skill. Constantly calling me and other players bad at the game is hurting our feelings and I'll look to report! You just want to bash any player who has any issue with this game.

You're telling me you want them to throw rock every time because you're not good enough at the game to adapt on the fly?  You want the game dumbed down so you can continue to abuse the game? Why not just get more creative and try different ways to score throughout the game. Sounds like a skill issue. If you think goalies should just stay in one place or move out of the way of the puck it will be the death of this game!

-----

If you want to discuss goalie then let's do that. Anything else is off topic. Try to stay on topic. If you think goalies are fine the way they are then you can simply say that and that's it. If you don't think so but have a better idea, then suggest that. If you don't like my idea but think something could still be done then say what's wrong with my idea. That's how healthy discussion happens. I just can't think of any reason that goalies playing different is something someone would be so upset about, do you like people scoring the same goals or not? How can it be a good thing for them to be this way (genuinely asking to create discourse) I can think of 1 reason to defend this, however I tend to feel it makes the game worse overall.

Making 1T's deadly is a big can of worms that could become crazy.  I do think they need to have the AI play better in terms of moving without the puck around for various scoring situations of the offensive zone.   

I agree that it could be. Personally I would have made 1T harder to pull off, you would have to time them to get a good shot off. They did something like this but just improved the 1T rather than making an ill timed one worse. I think icon passing has also lowered the difficulty in pulling one off. 1T 3-4 years ago was in a bad place as far as being too easy, now goalies are a bit too good at reacting and making EXTREMELY fast movements to save some of them. I wouldn't lower their reaction a TON but the super speed saves/ desperation saves would be lowered a bit if I was on the dev team. I think it's better now than before they just went a hair too far imo.

On one hand the 1T is probably the single biggest threat in real hockey. It's the main goal in an odd man situation and power play. On the other it can't be as easy as some of the older games. I think with my suggestion you could have your goalie play the pass or play the puck carrier better and as a defender on that team you would choose to defend the guy your goalie would then struggle to defend.

All that being said I think the 1T has actually become much easier to defend with updates to interceptions and stick lifts. I usually feel better about giving up a well put together 1T than I do a backhand from the goal line. When I try to take away the 1T and they go solo backhand I just shake my head. If I take the guy with the puck I have a better chance to stop a goal, just feels wrong. Just gotta hope my cpu goalie has the awareness to take the pitch man and defend the 1T after a pass and that's a 50/50. A 1T you really just gotta worry about a stick lift not getting the animation due to some wonky stick physics or them being in an animation that prevents a bump or something. Sometimes a pass going through that otherwise shouldn't is also possible but it's become more rare. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

I think with my suggestion you could have your goalie play the pass or play the puck carrier better and as a defender on that team you would choose to defend the guy your goalie would then struggle to defend.

That's literally how it works now. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

a backhand from the goal line

Post a single video of this.

rsandersr47 wrote:

When I try to take away the 1T and they go solo backhand I just shake my head

This means you've given up an odd-man rush, but rather than concede you've made a bad defensive play, you're insisting the goalie is the problem. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

If I take the guy with the puck I have a better chance to stop a goal, just feels wrong.

In what world is it wrong to pressure the puck carrier to force a mistake?!

rsandersr47 wrote:

"Post a single video of this."

Whoops, I thought you said blue line. My bad. In any case, this is not a backhand from the goal line

You're clearly above the goal line here. Also, goalies all alone in practice mode do not have the same logic as a goalie with players in front of them. 

rsandersr47 wrote:

It does not. (referring to goalies posting up in anticipation of a pass to an open receiver)

And yes, it does.

rsandersr47 wrote:

 so sad for your lacking ability to grasp new concepts.

rsandersr47 wrote:

Logic is just so hard for you to grasp

rsandersr47 wrote:

You're just never gonna understand how poorly you are at discussing anything.

rsandersr47 wrote:

I don't know how else to explain one the most simple fallacies any more than I have.

rsandersr47 wrote:

Can we talk about goalies now? Or am I just wasting my time with you? I said this is about goalies and you're still set on changing the subject to skaters. Isn't this against forum rules? Can we stay on topic? Is it possible?

Yup, I'm 100% done with you. Constantly attacking not willing to discuss and just want to argue.  I've never once said any demeaning thing to you in this topic other than imply a better defensive posture would alleviate some of your gripes. Suggesting to someone that there may be a skill-gap is not an attack. Like I said in my PM to you (because I feel that's the only place we can continue this without subjecting everyone else to our bickerings) - if you just want to post topics to be agreed with, you may find better success in discords setup for such a thing. cheers :)