Let's talk about scientist
In the middle of the current "zombie are better then plant". Scientist is a name that often come up during those discussion. It not hard to see why, terrifying at close range, a self-heal and good ap...
Forum Discussion
@Zaheen1337 wrote:
Paleontologist is a primary suspect as well, don't let him sneak under the radar.
Good point,Paleontologist isn't as dominant right now because of the others scientist variant I cited,but he clearly have some imbalance too,mainly is VERY high clip by scientist standard (12 ammo,and that without ammo upgrade) as well as having a splash in his projectile for some reason which make the fire DOT a tad too easy to spread, His close range fighting capacity is actually rather "meh" due to the small radius of his splash though.
The thing is that of course,scientist was and is still mainly a assassin class with a self-heal ; a combat medic, Heck like, you can already go for a full support build with astronaut, heal beam, Mega heal bomb and either warp. Although like you said,why do that when you're better off just going assassin. The only way to go right now is indeed encouraging his support playstyle for now.
@jiponwheels wrote:
Its simple give the sunflower the same capabilities as the scientist 🙂 lol
Completely reworking sunflower to be like scientist is just too much work and it not really worth it just to get a cloned class... However I wouldn't mind a shotgun sunflower variant just for the heck of it.
You got good point here,but like Zaheen said,cactus is kinda outclassed by deadboard right now. The only cactus that is viable for that is future cactus. Mostly for that One shot at fully charged headshot.
Chomper also can't really hope to do anything against a scientist expect the goop + burrow combo that work against everyone. Scientist barely care for goop due to his shotgun splash and can escape from burrow alone with warp,as for spikeweed. Most scientist want to stay out of chomp range,so it rather hard to bait into them.
At close range Deadbeard's definitely got the Cactus beat. Which is why I'd LOVE to see her Needles get stronger at close ranges. Her hip firing feels a little awkward at close range thanks to the new engine, but hey, she was designed to be a defensive character, killing things before they got close.
The only thing holding the Cactus back right now is primarily team balance. (and maybe low sensitivity, but that can be fixed) It's hard to get fast kills on Scientists and Deadbeards because of the "Bullet Sponge" spam. Future Cactus works wonders on unsuspecting 125 hp or less classes. Zen Cactus, although not as overwhelmingly powerful since the patch - is still strong, hitting attacks that can stack up to 55 with splash. Jade works well against groups, and the splash can make it easier to hit - plus you can outlast deadbeards with your superior hp.
Compared to the many Cacti variants, Deadbeard only has two (barring the party captain) that are viable currently. (Stock, Sharkbite) The others are useless because of their hilariously bad ammo count/close range damage. Deadbeard also has a MUCH clunkier reload than the Cactus as it's two weapons in one - and this kinda forces you to spam reload to stay in some fights. Sharkbite's also probably gonna get an ammo count/fire rate nerf because he's just far less clunky than the Camo Cactus, which is supposed to be his harder hitting equivalent.
Part of why I brought up the Chomper at all is that his presence alone is a Scientist deterrent, especially on defense. (Mind games, you know?) If they try diving in with a warp, the other won't guarantee they escape - since you can catch up to a warping scientist if they have one left. Armor Chompers are especially scary on defense because of that 50 damage bite. (even if they're slow, but that doesn't matter if they manage to goop you) Even if you play completely obvious, chomping a Scientist is a win because they're unrevivable and you're denying healing and full revives. He's also great at killing/countering the "bullet sponge" classes.
I'd like to see Super Brainz get nerfed first (175 hp or less, nerfing electro's beam), maybe a Z-Mech CD increase too, and see how things fall into place.
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
Close range Deadbeard's definitely got the Cactus beat. I'd LOVE to see her Needles get stronger at close ranges. Her Hip firing feels a little awkward at close range thanks to the new engine, but hey, she was designed to be a defensive character, killing things before they got close.
Elemental cactus variant actually have some drop off making them a tad better at closer range,but yeah you're true,cactus is just a plain defensive char.
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
The only thing holding the Cactus back right now is primarily team balance. (and maybe low sensitivity, but that can be fixed) It's hard to get fast kills on Scientists and Deadbeards because of the beefcake spam.Not sure if you mean superbrainz or ally corn here by "beefcake"
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
Compared to the many Cacti variants, Deadbeard only has two (barring the party captain) that are viable currently. (Stock, Sharkbite) The others are useless because of their hilariously bad ammo count/close range damage.
Actually Captain cannon is kinda underrated, 30 damage splash you can explode wharever you want do well wonder against groups. Although it work better at mid-range due to the rather slow projectile speed. Rather hilarously too,you're better off aiming at close range to abuse his cannon splash instead of using his horrible shotgun.
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
Part of why I brought up the chomper at all is that his presence alone is a Scientist deterrent, especially on defense. (Mind games, you know?) If they try diving in with a warp, the other won't guarantee they escape - you can catch up to a warping scientist if they have one left. Armor Chompers are especially scary on defense because of that 50 damage bite. (even if they're slow, but that doesn't matter if they manage to goop you) Even if you play completely obvious, chomping a Scientist is a win because they're unrevivable and you're denying healing and full revives. He's also great at killing/countering the "bullet sponge" classes.
Not really,unless the chomper just burrowed or was conveniently very close to you after the first warp. Scientist would eventually get out with his second warp,although probably without doing much damage. Armor chomper is actually pretty decent against scientist yeah. Forgot about those. And of course that unrevivable kill is always a plus if you can pull it off.
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
I'd like to see Super Brainz get nerfed first (175 hp or less, nerfing electro's beam), maybe a Z-Mech CD increase too, and see how things fall into place. If the Scientist is still spammed all to hell after, reduce his damage to around a middle between how he is now and how much he was in GW1. I'd like to see the other variants still do more - rather than seeing Zoologists, Chemists, and Marine Biologists dominate.
Scientist didn't got any damage buff in general,just damage upgrade for his two currently best variant. But yeah,in that point it would be better for scientist to not be changed or to just get a small nerf right now and see how it go.
(Also Imp Phone call cooldown start once he get in the Z-mech instead of when he get out compared to pre-patch. It might explain why they're more common right now)
Well I was quite mistaken about the scientist's damage in GW1 after examining it much more closely. Apologies. I had it in my head that the most stock did in GW1 was around 40, with the elementals around 35 (plus added effects) - which are the close, but not point blank range numbers. Keeping most variants point blank damage around 50-60 is fine as he's a glass cannon - but the Zoologist, Chemist, Marine biologist should hit a little lower than that considering the splash or their fire rate.
I played a lot of GW1 on the PC - took a break from it until like two weeks from launch. Clearly a few things went over my head in the mad dash to get to at least 50 on the XB1 version before GW2's launch - which was a waste of 40 bucks as I didn't know that my progress on the PC would carry over. XD
And as for beefcakes, I meant 200 hp or higher classes. I edited that to "Bullet Sponges", but I guess I wasn't fast enough.
Honestly changing anything on the Scientist will break him and make him UP, the only thing I can think of would be to increase the cool down his Warp. Glass cannons like him can go from OP to UP with only one small change and it probably best to just leave him alone and bite the bullet. that being said I have to problems with the Plants getting some close range burst damage to help counter him.
Meh he's fine. If he gets close to you its your fault for not noticing your surroundings.Scientist, at least the MarineBiologist, Zoologist, and Computer Scientist need a damage nerf. It's too easy to get vanquish master in multiplayer with a healer class. It's not hard at all. Which is pathetic because he's supposed to be a healer class. It's not like Sunflowers run the table and go vanquish master all the time. I leveled up both the zoologist and the computer scientist and I was vanquish master almost every match. That's crazy. I could get 20 kills in that first 5 minutes of turf wars, and we (zombies) defended right off the bat. I was on pace for 100 kills had it gone all the way. It is so easy to just teleport to several plants and just drop at least 2 of them each and every time.
You said it wouldn't take much to make him underpowered, but even you say he's overpowered right now. Well then what the hell. He's a support class. Make him underpowered offensively then! His role is not to go out an be vanquish master. It's to heal and revive. God knows there are plenty of other zombies that take over the role of offense for his lack there of. Damn. That's part of the issue. Whereas the plants are more set in their roles, all of the zombies have crazy offensive power! It shouldn't be!
Then why don't we make the Plants stronger like the Zombies rather then make the Zombies weaker like the Plants? Give don't take.
@XMalakhX wrote:Scientist, at least the MarineBiologist, Zoologist, and Computer Scientist need a damage nerf. It's too easy to get vanquish master in multiplayer with a healer class. It's not hard at all. Which is pathetic because he's supposed to be a healer class. It's not like Sunflowers run the table and go vanquish master all the time. I leveled up both the zoologist and the computer scientist and I was vanquish master almost every match. That's crazy. I could get 20 kills in that first 5 minutes of turf wars, and we (zombies) defended right off the bat. I was on pace for 100 kills had it gone all the way. It is so easy to just teleport to several plants and just drop at least 2 of them each and every time.
You said it wouldn't take much to make him underpowered, but even you say he's overpowered right now. Well then what the hell. He's a support class. Make him underpowered offensively then! His role is not to go out an be vanquish master. It's to heal and revive. God knows there are plenty of other zombies that take over the role of offense for his lack there of. Damn. That's part of the issue. Whereas the plants are more set in their roles, all of the zombies have crazy offensive power! It shouldn't be!
@GhostKing1337 wrote:
Honestly changing anything on the Scientist will break him and make him UP, the only thing I can think of would be to increase the cool down his Warp. Glass cannons like him can go from OP to UP with only one small change and it probably best to just leave him alone and bite the bullet. that being said I have to problems with the Plants getting some close range burst damage to help counter him.
Trust right here,look as some of the least popular variant like Dr.toxic and Physicist. They all have respectable DPS at close range,but aren't nearby as popular as it fairly easy to get out of ammo with them or because they get most of his damage from the projectile,heck, Chemist actually don't even have that much DPS ,he's just that good because of his big splash and decent ammo count. As well as gaining ALOTS from his damage upgrade now.
@ChikoWiko wrote:
Meh he's fine. If he gets close to you its your fault for not noticing your surroundings.Considering he have a warp to approach (and escape if he fell like he's losing the fight) and because map in general encourage close range fighting more with bunch of flanking options... Yeah no.
Ghostking pretty much explained why a flat out damage nerf wouldn't work. It could easily make the difference between a UP scientist and a OP one,remember that scientist is awesome at close range but can't do jack * at longer range. Better solution would be a fire rate nerf,ammo nerf and some shotgun splash range tweak.
@DawnOfNoob wrote:
And as for beefcakes, I meant 200 hp or higher classes. I edited that to "Bullet Sponges", but I guess I wasn't fast enough.
Ah I see,cactus actually don't have that much trouble killing those class at longer range as they have a rather big hitbox anyway,but yeah it take time and he still die to them at close range.
GhostKing1337 wrote: Then why don't we make the Plants stronger like the Zombies rather then make the Zombies weaker like the Plants? Give don't take.I believe that plant team in general is actually in a very fine place balance wise (outside of chomper being UP) and that it just that zombie team is have more "OP" char in general. Why do you think nobody complain about engi, all-star and foot soldier? Because they are fine too.
@solve4me wrote:
- scientist (healer + death machine+instantly health recover+warp) > sunflower (healer + supporter)If you would explain more about your opinions instead of quoting part of the same thing you say every time. Maybe people will respond to you... Sunflower have more difference when scientist for one,mainly that she much better to fight at longer range. While scientist is a blast at close range but is lacking at any other range.
And Sunflower can recover health with heal flower too.
@solve4me, at this point of the game there is no reason to compare a class to its apparent twin class on the other side. Every plant has distinct looks, power, abilities, and so-forth that makes them more unique and their proper niches different from their 'rival' zombies and vise-versa.
There's others, such as the Deadbeard vs. Cactus hype, but I will go over quickly the main subject here: Sunflower vs. Scientist
Most Scientists excel greatly in close range. Although there are a couple Scientists, such as the Zoologist, that I feel should be toned down a bit, all Scientists share the same weaknesses.
- Citron - All of his abilities have a way to fend off Scientists efficiently, as well as some other zombie classes. The Peel Shield is constantly being overlooked as a pathetic shield that gets destroyed too fast. Honestly, I hope it gets a buff because it is already good enough that The Shield basically gives an extra 75 hp against most zombie attacks with a mere sacrifice of not being able to shoot for half a second. The Shield and the primary alone is enough to take down a Scientist given that you are accurate with his 'super-accurate' laser beam (Also, do not forget to sample his primary in a fight). He also has the E.M.Peach that can be used which gives more than enough time to cut down a Scientist's hp to around 10%.
- If none of those tactics work, you always have the Citron Ball to use to get out of tight situations. Typically when you see a Scientist, a warp is almost completely predictable, so if you are unable to use the tactics above, roll back to a better position and let the Scientists waste their warp on you. Once you know that they used up both warps, you may retaliate back at a distance away from the Scientist's range.
- Even with all these tactics, a Citron is suppose to be a mid-ranged fighter or someone that helps plant groups immensely and should try to avoid close combat.
- Chomper - The Chomp Cannon is unexpected and can easily kill Scientists and Imps alike, while having a good cooldown time. Has Spikeweed that becomes active the moment you place it down, goop for easy vanquishes or for getaways, and burrow/warp for a most likely sneaky vanquish.
- Running at someone with burrow is a dead giveaway and will often net you 0-1 vanquishes and most likely get you vanquished by a zombie close by. Only use burrow if: you are trying to get away, knowing that someone is coming after you from around the corner, or you know that the zombie is close by and alone. Also, try not to use burrow in front of a zombie or as a way to get out of a battle as it is risky and will leave you temporary vulnerable to attacks while you are digging a hole.
- Corn - Has a Husk Hop that not only deals great damage when all of it's shots connect, it can be used as a way to get away from Scientists. Getting on a spot that a Scientist cannot get to will basically shut down that Scientist from even killing you. They may throw a sticky grenade, but that is rare as they would probably waste it beforehand anyway and the fact that many Scientists run Mega Heal Bomb.
- Rose - All her support moves can still shut down a Scientist well even after nerf.
- Peashooter - Has hyper to have the edge in battle due to being mobile in the air, a chili-bean bomb to disrupt Scientists that are grouped with other zombies, and a Pea Gatling that gives damage reduction and allows the Peashooter to always out dps the Scientist given that you are able to setup before the Scientist gets in range.
As for the Sunflower, it still does pretty well in mid-ranged combat, even in 1v1 mid-ranged fights. In GW1, you could run many of the Sunflowers as a front line plant, but in GW2, many of the maps hinder the Sunflower from straying too far from the team due to close-range danger. However, the higher dps Sunflowers are still liable in this game due to having dps similar to the stock Foot Soldier and having a self-healing plant.
All I have to say about Sunflower users is to often heal those that are highly susceptible to damage and fight at mid-range. Many Sunflowers are surprisingly strong when it comes down to mid-range encounters. Sunflowers may not be able to dominate their mid-range as good as the Scientist can in their close-range, but Sunflowers can check many of the zombie classes in its mid-range really well, which includes some Foot Soldiers, Engineers, Deadbeards, and Imps if accurate enough. The other zombies not listed are difficult to pin down with a Sunflower and would typically require help.
Sunflowers that can maintain good dps while taking damage include: Metal Petal, Sun Pharaoh, and Mystic Flower. Sunflowers that can do moderate damage mid-range while staying alive is the Shadow Flower and Vampire Flower.
Remember, this game is not a run-n-gun shooter game, this game corporates more strategy and positioning than running in thinking you will get a bunch of vanquishes - that may be true for some Scientists as the way most of the maps are made in this game favor close-range gameplay, but in the end, it all comes down to strategy if you want to win a match, especially a match against a group of Scientists.
I may use the lowest dps plant character in the game against a Scientist, but if I continue to hold down my niche, my favored range and role, I should be able to have a much better time supporting my team and possibly giving my team the victory.
Does this mean Scientists should not be nerfed? No.
I still agree that some Scientists should be nerfed in this game. What the nerf should be is complicated as what other people say, a nerf can utterly destroy a character if the nerf is too strong and at this time, I have no idea on what the nerf should be.
edit: I do apologize for the speech, but this trend of Scientists dominating Sunflowers is something that cannot be resolved easily with short words.
