Re: Anyone who thinks Plants are balanced...
Huh, I'm surprised you didn't just use one of the four thousand turn four kill zombie decks to avoid that situation completely. The game is balanced; sometimes you're going to lose, get over it.
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@daalnnii wrote:Huh, I'm surprised you didn't just use one of the four thousand turn four kill zombie decks to avoid that situation completely. The game is balanced, sometimes, your going to lose, get over it.
"Zombies have a few powerful combos that can do well if you manage to draw just the right cards at just the right time. That totally balances the incredible synergy and consistency of Plant decks."
I'm sorry, but somehow I find this reasoning less than fully persuasive. Balance isn't just about winning or losing; it's about making sure that the game is good regardless of who wins.
Do you seriously think plants get exactly what they need every draw? Huh... That's an interesting perspective I'll have to take into account the next time I try to use logic in an argument.
Btw teleport and zombot 1000 say hello. (Playable AFTER plants on turn ten).
I mean, if it's such a huge problem, play immorticia.
But let's face it, it just pissed you off because it's happened a couple times, which sucks, but...
Most people don't carry four copies of cornucopia in their deck because games reaching the tenth turn are rare, so carrying more than a couple is generally wasted space. So, even if they do go to ten, they may not have it in their hand. And even if they do, they may get * cards and not zucchini. That's the nature of random.
@daalnnii wrote:Do you seriously think plants get exactly what they need every draw? Huh... That's an interesting perspective I'll have to take into account the next time I try to use logic in an argument.
That's not what I think, and it's not what I said. I guess we veered a bit from the original post, but the point I was driving at in my response was that Zombies seem to be rather combo-reliant. Many of the most powerful combos I've seen and that I hear people complain about tend to rely on one or two cards that have to be in place or else the entire deck falls apart.
Plants, on the other hand, seem to have a lot more synergy, and don't rely so much on specific cards. There are certainly some cards they'd like to see pop up, but it's not going to throw off their entire strategy if they don't get them.
I am honestly a bit surprised to hear that double-digit turn counts are rare, as they're somewhat common in my games. Occasionally I'll face a Plant deck that hits early and often for a quick knock-out, or one that completely falls apart and can't stop do anything to stop my attacks. But far more often, the games stretch on into slugging matches.
I mistook you using the word "consistency" asking with "Zombies have a few powerful combos that can do well if you manage to draw just the right cards at just the right time," as saying plants always get what they need in comparison. But I'm the end, both sides are only as consistent as the way the decks were built.
As for synergy... Well, play plants for a while. You'll truly start coming across some crazy zombie decks that's have amazing synergy and a lot of win conditions. Pet decks, sport decks, pirate decks, dancing decks, mustache decks, trick decks, bounce decks, deadly decks, etc. They're out there, and they have a lot of different ways to win with each.
Sometimes we just can't see the answer for or favorite side because we never play against it. I've played a cornucopia, gotten zucchini from it, just to have them play that exact combo I mentioned earlier. So, I went from thinking I had the win, to having my board completely wiped and taking 9 damage to the face in the zombie trick phase, basically. To make matters worse, they used teleport to add zombie to their empty hand!
Just as lucky as me getting zucchini... I was miffed at my luck, not the player or the balance.
I have played as Plants, which is actually part of the basis for my conclusion. I've lost to all sorts of Zombie decks at some point or another, but the only ones that seem to consistently get the upper-hand seem to be Sports decks, and even that is really only because of one card: Zombie Coach.
Another thing I notice is that most of the Zombie decks mentioned are based around an arbitrary keyword. Pirate or Pet may look for other cards with the same keyword, but they don't directly affect the game themselves. Most of the powerful Plant decks I see, however, do. Freezing, Healing, Team-Up, Bonus Attack, etc. all start with taking already-powerful effects and then making them even more powerful by having other cards combo with them.
I'll also say that, from my experience, most Zombie decks are based around getting their own cards out and pumping them up, and trying to outplay the opponent's pumped-up cards. Most powerful Plant decks seem like they're more about preventing the Zombie player from getting to play at all. Put another way, Zombie decks seem to be mostly about preparing for the Attack phase and trying to out-attack the Plants. Plant decks seem to be about making sure the Zombie player doesn't even get an Attack phase.
It's just getting to the point where if I want to play for fun, I play Zombies. If I really, really need a win (like it's getting towards the end of the season and I'm close to going up another tier), I play Plants.
I deleted my last post in lieu of this one because I think we’re haveing parallel conversations and I’d rather make my point than get us both censored.
So here goes....
1. Frenzy and Double Strike are compatible abilities, in that both give potential for multiple attacks and both can allow for attacking through blockers for face damage; however
2. Double Strike has fewer caveats for the “bonus attack” condition. Therefore
3. In a vaccuum, Double Strike is not only similar to but better than Frenzy.
This does not imply that I am unsatisfied with Frenzy, or concerned about Double Strike.
This does not imply that Plants are better than Zombies, or that the game is unbalanced.
The point is merely as written: Plants have access to an ability that is similar to, and in fact better than, Frenzy.
If you examine the actual game, I think it would not be difficult to accept this conclusion. If the zombies that currently have Frenzy were granted Double Strike instead, most or all of them would probably have to be nerfed.
But better is where I take issue, I don't feel it's better. I think it's ease of use is greater, but that doesn't equal better. Does it attack every round? Maybe. it could be killed by a deadly zombie, it might be blocked by a gravestone. Most other issuances apply to frenzy as well, like killed by a trick, having the effect blocked my another card, or dying in the first assault of the attack phase...
But while it may hit twice in every other case, frenzy can hit up to three times. Combine that with a lane that gives you strick through and you can not only kill both plants, but hit the hero in the face three times in one lane. That's an incredibly powerful ability, and one that double strike can't match. I mean, imagine a nurse gargantuar getting fusion frenzied and having a laser base alpha dropped on a lane with a couple weak team up cards... That's 21 damage and full life from just one lane. Incredibly powerful.
So while I do feel it may not have the ease of use, it does have equal utility and better potential in the end. Seems like an equal contender to me.
Nurse doesn’t even have Frenzy. So you’re comparing one card to three? A zombie, a trick, and an environment? (Across two classes, so only accessible by one hero?)
OK. For my plant I pick Gatling Pea. I’ll play fair and choose a plant with Double Strike. For my environment I’ll pick The Red Plant-It. For my trick I’ll choose Sun Strike.
I don’t get three attacks, but I’m also not requiring my opponent to have any particular configuration. Also I have lethal in fewer hits, so less chance to super block.
I don’t know what you hope to prove with ridiculous scenarios. A Bananasaurus Rex and a Intersteller Bounty Hunter can both end games Turn 4. But I think 1) Bananasarus is better at face damage and 2) Intersteller with Double Strike would be insane.
Again, that doesn’t mean I think 3) Bananasaurus, as written, is better than Intersteller, as written.
All strategies are about about seven, my friend. Bananasaurus doesn't come out a monster, it's made a monster over multiple turns (again where a 1/1 deadly could kill it, or bonus track couple destroy it or cancel it's effect), or with the addition of buffed from other cards, be they plant forf fertilize or a Lily. Other, stronger injuries repeat cards work best with a fusion. Don't act like I'm wrong.
And last I checked, I did mention that ease of you was better for double strike (even though it also faces more threats) and the potential of the power goes to zombies. I actually created a whole post about it. You should actually read the counters to your debates some time. You might learn something...
To be honest though, believe what you want. If a card isn't valuable to you because you may have to set it up to get it's maximum potential, than I truly look forward to meeting you in game. There are a lot of tough to beat zombie players out there, it'll be nice to get a quick win. At least I know to use a double strike deck against you. It's generally not that useful against higher levels, but it appears to be far too strong to get around for some...
You’re still talking about cards. I’m talking ability comparison. I’ve been at Ultimate for months. (No longer. Months is how long I’ve been playing.)
How do you like this card: 3, all zombies get +1/+1 and Double Strike. Draw a card.
I know if I had access to this card, games I played would be a lot shorter.
The card does not exist, and would not exist. It would be too strong.
Cards with Frenzy that are actually in the game are probably at least as viable as cards with Double Strike that are actually in the game. But they also tend to have better stats to compensate for the fact that Frenzy is a weaker ability than Double Strike. Just like cards with no abilities tend to have better raw stats to compensate for their lack of abilities.
You’ll notice through all of this that I have made no personal attacks on your ability to play the game. Breathe in, breathe out, and you may decide that we’re not actually on opposite sides of YOUR central argument.
Not actually reading what I'm saying is a pretty personal as far as I'm concerned. What you're saying is a 4 cost 3/3 is hard to kill? Oh, it has to be set up a bit too be effective! More than one card played... You keep acting like double strike just comes out strong and isn't super easy to counter. Plants don't have gravestones to block frenzy or deadly cards to take care of them with a card that's half the damage and cost. You keep acting like these things don't matter in a side by side comparison, and ignoring good points about the balance and potential; but they absolutely do matter. Especially when talking about the balance of effects.
So again, double strike may be easier, but frenzy has more potential (and apparently higher learning curve), but also less ways to effectively deal with it. Doesn't matter how many cards are used. That's deck building and set up. If you aren't doing that anyway, you won't get far.
If you don't take things into account when discussing which is "better" then you're omitting facts to try to win an argument.
Edited because I'm better than that
An example of why potential absolutely matters when discussing which is better in comparison.
Does it happen all the time? Nope, but therethe potential is there...
(Posthumous Editing.)
(Posthumous because I am a zombie sympathizer.)
(Get it?)
Lol whatever, man. Attack the guy for using predictive text on his phone. Whatever makes you feel superior since your arguments hold no weight. If I felt you were worth proofing for, I would.
Education =\= intelligence.
Btw, your use of ellipses is incorrect. You need three instead of four. But I guess you already knew that; being an educated man and all.
Thanks I forgot about Double Strike and Splash.
I would say instead of the attacks let us look at the plus minus of DS vs Frenzy:
Open Lane: Double Strike is the clear winner
Occupied Lane:Functionally the same
The clear caveat is DS cannot be improved like Frenzy can. I think in typical PvZ fashion double strike is better straight up while Frenzy can be boosted to become very powerful (deadly, strike thru). Iirc a bonus attack on a DS plant will only get you 1 attack while on a Frenzy you can get the effects if the plant dies?
I postulated that DS and Frenzy are comparable abilities in a lot of respects. I still believe this: of all the unique abilities plants and zombies have, these are (as far as I’m concerned, though I would be happy to be proven wrong) the most similar in function.
At face value (“in theory,” “in a vacuum,” what have you) I argued that DS is *almost* strictly better. Space Cowboy may be the exception that proves the rule.
You summed this much up well. :-)
Daalnnii would argue that you can’t ignore practice, i.e. the actual cards and what they do, and made the argument that “zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane” which is a “potential that plants can’t match.”
Sort of.
Potential is a tricky thing, for one because it could be argued on and on and on with example after anecdote after example.
It’s true that Zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane. It’s also true that Team Up plants affect a block meter as one plant. So DS team up plants can colllectively attack four times in one lane if bestowed with DS.
This may seem like a technicality, until you consider that Coffee Grounds is an easy way to bestow Double Strike, and Vegitation Mutation is in the same class.
Ultimately, I think “in practice” zombies that actually have Frenzy can match or exceed the potential of plants that have DS. But I also think DS has more potential as an ability because it can be bestowed cheaply and can make decks lightning fast (because of increased face damage over Frenzy.) Captain C has many routes to a turn 3 win through Grounds.
1. That was a nice analysis of the debate so far.
2. You're absolutely right, Combustible can be devastating with the repeats if you don't have cards to deal with it.
That said, I urge you not to forget about going viral. It can be an absolutely devastating card, for which there is no answer until the next turn.
As far a CC repeat decks go... There is twotwo ma weaknesses that can never be exploited by plants on frenzy: Deadly & Gravestones. They can ruin a double strike deck's day.
But yeah, you say double strike is inherently better, which if we were only considering thet pros if the effect, iI would agree with you wholeheartedly. I feel you have to consider the weaknesses when discussing which is better, which is why i say you have to consider the other cards in the game to make that determination. In doing so, I find them different, but equal.
Can always tell who lost the arguement/debate when someone starts resorting to correcting grammar
I think for the most part with plants what you see is what you get.
Double Strike cannot be made any better beyond increasing the strength of the attack.
Frenzy can be made better by making a Frenzied Zombie deadly or giving the lane strike through (or both). A lane with a team up plant in it facing a Frenzy zombie in a strike through lane that will kill both will make you cry.
Honestly I do not like or use DS cards. I much prefer Strike Through. Less reliance on a meat shield.
I don’t think Strikethrough enters this discussion.
Strikethrough is an ability both plants and zombies possess, and which both plants and zombies are able to bestow. Yes, it improves Frenzy. It also improves Double Strike. It may be that not many plant players mix the two abilities in the current meta. Nonetheless, it can be done. I’ve seen it happen. And it is exactly as effective as it sounds.
I’m not a particular fan of DS myself, but I do love it in my Party Thyme decks.
Just about every card in the game has multiple applications. What you see is almost never what you get, until you see what else you get and what that gets you.
@npgibbs I’m reading between the lines, and what I hear you saying is that Laser Base Alpha is good.
Correct.
There are a lot of bonkers environments out there that will win you the game in most cases if they stay in play long enough.
There are even some that you only need to use for one turn. (Grapes of Wrath in the context of Cyclecap is better than Lase Base Alpha will ever be... though of course not strictly better.)
Here is something for you to consider, though. Laser is a sneaky card. Frenzy literally does not exist in sneaky class. (A sneaky hero has it, none of the class cards do.) So the interaction you’re touting is one that has to be very deliberately set up that way.
Frenzy + Laser Base should, at least in theory, be no easier or harder to fabricate than Double Strike + Sun Strike, or indead Strikethrough + Coffee Grounds.
Involving environments in the first place is dangerous in a way, because so many of them are absurdly abusable (even the common/uncommon ones, like Nebula and Flytrapplannet before they were nerfed.).
Strike Thru was an aside. I digressed.
As a plant player I believe it takes more skill to play Zombies because you have to properly distribute your strategy in a round between zombie phase and trick phase. Sure there are exceptions like pet decks and barrel rolling imp decks but if you want to take any zombie deck to the next level you have to properly manage your two phases.
Zombies has arguably the most creative (and destructive) combinations in the game. Making AoE Zombies deadly. Filling opponent's hand with max cards so they can't use block meter. Playing Zombies on trick turn.
Zombies > Plants when the player is very skilled.
