Re: Let's Discuss Ops

A couple more things to add after playing several more OPs:

-While not solely for ops, the night version of Pressure Pier is too dark inside the building where the grave-o-matic is located. Normally the PvZ shooters at night look like night but you can still see, that is not the case here, it's very hard to see what's going on inside.

-The Marigold (and one presumes the Yeti as well), bonus events do not give enough time to complete. It takes far too long just to find them in the first place, and when we did, we didn't have enough time to vanquish it, even with all 4 of us working on it.

-The maps are gorgeous but are too big for ops. I haven't done much of the PvP matches barring TT but these maps feel too big for 8v8 teams as well. We spend a lot of time running around trying to find where the enemies are spawning and it makes the OPs feel like they drag on. In GW1 and 2, you'd get a straggler here and there but nothing like this. In ops enemies could spawn closer to the objective which would help.

-The waves feel very long, possibly due to making them larger but only giving us 5. The large amounts of dead time involved in each wave exacerbates this issue.

I still had fun, and so a friend that joined me, but I feel there's a lot that needs to be addressed as well.

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@mistincat wrote:
@PuffinStuff88I also miss the evacuation stage of the match actually, it really added a sense of urgency and excitement hoping everyone makes it out alive!

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This!

Ops isn’t Ops, if you’re not sensing urgency to evacuate.

GW2’s Ops were near perfect.  Why change them?

@spIash_damageExactly right, it is near perfect and i can't fathom why they didn't just bring that existing core functionality over to the new game and expand on it further and really refine it to make it perfect. Instead what we have is a watered down game mode that barely resembles the Ops we all know and love.

I don't mean to harp on about it or belittle the developers hard work in anyway, but this is just so far from what i think many of us were expecting, it really is disappointing and i hope the developers can appreciate our frustrations as fans of the series.

My issues with OPs so far (which many have mentioned before):

• Death is cheap: Dying means nothing anymore... There is no sense of urgency to go and revive others within a time limit... Instead, you can just leave others, they'll auto respawn after all. That also "cheapens" healing... .The sense of "carrying the whole team since you're the last man standing". is no more. Surviving and fighting behind covers and being at strategic locations also mean nothing.
• New heroes are OP: The new heroes are super powerful. That includes Snapdragon, Oak, Space Cadet, Electric Slide and Engineer. Most waves are really easy when you have any of those heroes in your team. (I know some people dislike or think that Snapdragons are weak, but they have generous AoE abilities and powerful ones too.)
• The difficulty is a Joke: I was really excited to finally play OPs in CRAAAZY!! mode... But I was greeted with a lukewarm uncooked steak instead that lacks any spice. What makes things worse is what I mentioned earlier about heroes being super powerful.
• One location?! That's boring... in GW1/GW2, each location was different than the other. It made each map feel like 3 different ones. Now, when you see a map, it's just that map...
• Pace is too slow: The first wave, the most boring wave... You kill a couple of zombies/plants... then have to wait around 10 ~ 15 seconds to finally encounter the rest by either moving, or them coming to you. The distance between enemy spawn till the objective is too long.
• Your effort means nothing: After all, we will all get the same exact coins, as long as we don't die. Someone can just sit back, do nothing and still get as much as anyone who poured their efforts to win. But of course, we now play to level up our heroes. So being active is better (for now). Unless I'm mistaken?
• There are no Disco/Vampire Zombies spawned from bosses. Unless I'm mistaken, again?
• Old Music, Reused. Don't get me wrong! I love the music, but this is a "new" game and the music composer is really great! The new Turf Takeover music is really amazing. Why not give us more tunes? if people wanted the classic music, they can have the option to switch back.
• Speed run is still difficult. Since GW1?

 I think that this time, they designed PvP maps first and then they added OPs later. In previous games, it felt the opposite way around... The maps were designed for OPs first then they used them for PvP. Most of these maps are more balanced PvP-wise than previous games.

What they can do now is:

• Re-introduce the old system of dying/respawning. After well, there are many healing abilities. Players' skills must be tested.
• Make all enemies sprint until they reach the first bots. If none, they proceed sprinting to the objective or players.
• Killing more, healing and being active should be more rewarding. That means, people who are more active should get more coins. Lazy players will still get coins, but not as much.
• Skill-based difficulty in the console playlist: The game should try to find people of similar skill rating (for PvP or even PvE) and adjust the game's difficult accordingly. If there are good players in the queue, then put them in a more difficult game but also reward them for that. This might be difficult to implement. or may take some time.
• Add custom modes: In order for people to play OPs without having to deal with the "auto-adjusting difficulty" mentioned above. They should be able to pick their maps, difficulties and of course sides manually. Whatever they pick, can be added to the console queue. What that means, if other players are picking "Garden/Graveyard OPs" from console, they can also join those custom games automatically. There won't be a need to browse for games. And there might be no waiting for any players.
• Add more defense locations: I fully understand that some maps can't handle this due to their design being PvP-oriented. But, at least if that's not possible, then add more weather conditions and day/noon/night to all maps to add more variety.
• Each map should have its own music: I know this seems "crazy" but what they can do is, pick a set of instruments that reflect those maps (e.g. Harmonica for cheese factory, Jungle/Ruins inspired themes..etc), remix all Garden/Graveyard OPs music based on that. If anyone played PvZ2 on mobile, they would understand how exciting and great it is to go to new worlds and listen to their unique music pieces that reflect the zone they were in. Music is important, it leaves a good impression/memories and adds more depth to any content. But what kind of memories will we have about BFN if the music is the same as before? The original PvZ, PvZ2 and even PvZ Heroes on mobile had great memorable tunes that you even used in GW2 and BFN.
• Add Evacuate or other final objectives: As a bonus reward. Final objectives could be planting bombs, carrying them, securing a payload to evacuation spot...etc.

For Neighborville!

@mistincatyou rock.. thanku for that... I'm very glad you took the liberty of taking a screenshot...
and how very astute of you to realise that the post might be deleted.

I stand by all I said and am still reeling with the disappointment... as I do feel they added it as an afterthought with no real care or concern for how those that loved this mode would feel.... this is not a mode on its own but basically a copy of the quest we had already done a good few times times in anticipation for the release of the "real" Ops...
and as @Iron_Guard8  has pointed out there is no evacuation either... super disappointed.
We went back last night and did another couple of games of it.... and to be honest it is boring.... in its present state many people will just not play it.
And the no time in between rounds etc... also not good ☹️

I don't mind multiplayer but I wouldn't want to play it all the time and really enjoy being able to play Ops and Team Vanquish, Gnome Bomb, Surburbination etc with AI on the difficulty of my choosing, play solo or to play with friends ....
not to mention exploring maps properly and in your own time to appreciate everything that has gone into them... and to fully absorb all the work the developers have put into them. All the nuances, the jokes, the detail etc etc.
All the above was a huge part of the game for me.... and many others I know and play with.

I was so disappointed I could have cried... gutted to the core.... but I am a grownup and its a game so course I controlled myself hahaha but the disappointment was very real.

However, this morning I see that Justin Weibe has tweeted that this is the "first phase" and they plan to introduce "elite" waves... we just have to hope that they just copy and paste the code from GW2 which as @s points out was near perfect....
although I think map and team choice may be gone forever.... but for me personally, I would rather have this choice and occasionally suffer a disconnection as the host player gets disconnected. It was never that big of a problem, or that often.

Link to Justins tweet below:
https://twitter.com/JA_Wiebe/status/1174119517640724480

Please please developers just bring back at least most of the Ops mode that many of us know and love, thanku in advance.

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@GammaX6 wrote:

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• There are no Disco/Vampire Zombies spawned from bosses. Unless I'm mistaken, again?

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I have had a disco zombie in every plants OPs boss round I’ve faced (usually multiple to be honest), and have also had Baron Von Bats as well, so they are still in there 🙂

Agree with you generally about everything else though 🙂

I read the tweets last night and at least one thing makes more sense now; the way it automatically selects stages as they're no longer locally hosted but are on dedicated servers. I did get some serious lag in some Ops in both GW games, to the point it kicked me out on some of them as apparently thew connection between us was awful.

I would say that the issue of lag for people joining Ops, while real, isn't as important as all the missing options from Ops in GW1 and 2. If I could call the shots I'd do the following:

-Put Ops back as a local hosted event. Leave it in the MP portal if needed, but when someone starts a game rather than joining it, it spawns a hosted game just like GW1 and 2 and the free roam zones in BfN.

-Let us choose the stage, which side to play, and the difficulty.

-Let us run solo ops (with or without bots), private matches for friends/invites only, and open matches.

-Let us pick where to put our garden/graveyard among 3 places just like GW 1 and 2.

-5 waves is ok if you do indeed tune them properly, but returning to the old 10 would be fine too.,

-Bring the evacuations back.

So basically just like GW2 but with the new maps and characters.

Failing that, at the least have plant and zombie ops as separate options, let us choose the difficulty once in the Ops (much like boss hunt's in GW2, the person planting the objective selects difficult, maybe let other people vote on it as well), make the waves spawn closer so we don't find ourselves constantly trying to find the enemies, and make the waves smaller.

We can indeed do private Ops by visiting the Op station in the PvE areas as Justin tweeted, but as Giddy Park is supposed to be the hub for pretty much everything, it's not ideal, and it limits us to just that local map and that particular side.

Again, I did enjoy Ops yesterday and ran several, but they are currently just not as fun as they were in GW2 or even GW1 where I didn't like them as much.

Edit: Forgot to address the self-revives. I don't mind them being gone as I had thousands of the things in GW2. The current system really doesn't bug me but it obviously bothers other people. I'm not sure what the ideal solution would be as we no longer have a ton of these things to fall back on (and I had a ton of team retries too). Perhaps they could add a machine that sells self-revives for coins? That way it gives you another incentive to get coins and you can buy as many as you feel you need. This would replace the current auto-revive system.

@ToastedSarnie  Thanks for being positive and for having a helping attitude towards this community.

All what you've mentioned is exactly why the "Add custom modes" was there. You can pick the maps/difficulty and players who pick Garden/Graveyard OPs from the console playlist will be directed to the easiest difficulty if they were beginners or maybe their skill rating is low. 

The custom mode should also allow you to pick the difficulty that match your preference. Maybe you're not up to doing something hard and just want it easy. Maybe you're playing with your children or with people with disabilities. This game should be there for "all players" to enjoy regardless of their age/disabilities. 

PopCap should consider giving people the option to pick difficulties and sides (Plants or Zombies).

But, I also fully understand why they made it the way it is right now. In GW2, Garden/Graveyard OPs were split and, sometimes, you can't just find games/players that match your difficulty/map preference. There were too many options/regions. It can give the impression of "the game is dead". Now, it is all unified, there will always be games as long as people pick the mode from the playlist. That is why, I'm not against it. And I think it should stay.

Have a good one =)

For me this is disaster, i can't believe that after two games, where Ops worked great, devs manage to break it so hard. Im okay that you can start Ops in portal like all other modes, i nevver liked that i have to go to other place to start Ops, and then go back to portal if i want to play TT, but everything else... oohhh boy. 

- Why can't we choose what side to play? Im not a big fan of plants, and mostly i want to play as zombies, and only sometimes as plants when i feel playin them.....

- Why can't we choose map? Give us atleast choise of 2 maps after finishin the game, so we can vote for a next map!

- Why can't we choose where to place base!? It kills huge part of variety if Base always standing in a same place

- What with the difficulty. You can't choose it, and difficulty i played was too easy.

- 5 wave not enough, only one roulette roll per game, spetial wave doesn't feel like spetial. Boss wave is also pretty garbage, alot of bosses that doesn't do much, and doesn't feel like a boss at all.. Is it even possible to get a spetial Boss wave when only one boss type, and that cool intro cutscene play!? (Like how beatyfull disco zombie boss wave was with that music)

- Defence bots/plants do nothing, the die from 1/2 stikes and barely do damage to even a most weak enemy.

- No escape, ending absolutely anticlimactic

Honesly. I really wanted to start likin that game, but this is last drop. I want to refund that game, i don't care anymore where its gonna go after release, i don't see how can it be changed to become fun now. Its not because its not GW3, its because BfN is bad, sluggish and boring. Pick 7 doesn't give such variety as classes, new artstyle is questionable, runnin animation is bad(And mostly for plants), leves baceme even more tight than in GW2(GW2 already made combat more closequarteered than GW1), they feel like tubes everywhere, and now Ops that feels like empty shell of former self. I feel this game is wrong at its core, and thats a worst situation. You can't even remove everything(Obviously noone gonna do it) around that core and completely revork it, but you can't rework the core.

But can't even refund it anymore! Its too much time already passed! That was smart move to release game without most of its content and actually call it a full release so when other parts of content releases and and its actually a dissapointment, you can't ask for refund!! Why did i let my love to GW1/2 made me buy BfN now.......this is first time in YEARS i feel sorry for wasting money.

@Rachale I'm not talking about the bosses themselves. I'm talking about the Zombie minions they used to spawn in GW1 and GW2. They used to spawn themed Zombie minions if I remember correctly. The Disco Boss zombie now spawns 3 or 4 TV head zombies instead. I'm not sure if Baron Von Bats spawns anything as we usually took him down quicker.

I'm just going to go ahead and ask it.

I am not a game developer so know nothing of the complexity involved in such a task, but..

Is it feasible for the developers to bring in the old systems from GW2?

GW2 and BFN both run on the Frostbite engine, albeit different iterations, and my thinking is that as the developers have the existing code base from GW2, could they not just bring it over into BFN?

In my simplistic way of thinking, all that is needed is a point of entry to trigger the Ops menus just like Dave's van from GW2.

Forgive my ignorance if this is not a viable option, as i say i'm not a game developer.

Not sure who it was, but someone mentioned how dark Ops at night is, and they were 100% right! I played the pier at night map, and WOW! It was the first, and only match of Ops, my team lost, because we couldn't see jack! It wasn't so bad outside the warehouse where the base is, but all around the base itself, yeah, it was basically black! I'm thinking, it might be exacerbated by poor HDR design?

Anyway, it's GOT to be changed!

@tristkiss  Yep! That was me a bit back. It was fine outside but inside that building it was pitch black. Really hard to see what was going on.

I watched someone playing this nighttime Pier map for a few mins today and then stopped so we could discover and look at it ourselves as we haven't played it yet.... it looked very pretty
but the shed did look very dark... and from what you say doesn't sound very good to play.
More "oh dear" Ops issues to be fixed... as if there wasn't enough already ☹️

The Pier at dark and other places, for that matter, are almost unplayable due to not being able to see characters.

Definitely need to add some lighting....

@ToastedSarnie  I hear you... so bored with that map...
But fear not.... Shaun Laker addressed this very issue in the live stream tonight and blamed it on a bug they have discovered
and said that it will be fixed soon if not now I presume as it isn't a big thing to fix...
so other maps are coming your way apparently :D