If you do nothing else FIX KYLO’s Frenzy

@RiceKing55  It does! ... even worse, what I’m seeing also is that your opponent will be highlighted in white (indicating that they’re in AOE), you’ll go to trigger Frenzy and although the game seemingly accepts your input Kylo fails to actually register the ability or leap and you’re just standing there. When this happens Kylo sees a delay in turn around meaning if you go to use Frenzy on a very close opponent and it fails to register as they simultaneously dodge alongside or behind you, as you attempt to turn to block or strike your camera correctly pans but Kylo is still facing the wrong way, leaving you open to get hit. 

As a veteran Kylo due to the state of Frenzy I just can’t rely on it and generally I will only utilize it 1% to 2% of the time; and it’s not even an overly powerful ability. I don’t know any other character ability with such a negatively usable state; most broken abilities benefit the player; not this one. 

---

@VetteC5RX wrote:

Before I get a ton of “oh it’s a great ability” ... no, it’s not; in its current state it’s garbage against other heroes. 

other characters such as Vader received an adjustment because the Devs realized that the risk vs reward for using some abilities was more risk than reward. In Kylo’s case he got a nerf in damage.

I’m saying this because all of the following are true:

1.) Frenzy will OFTEN bug and fall to register all 3 leaps, sometimes just doing one and then stopping & standing still, leaving you vulnerable. 

2.) Frenzy can be 100% countered with abilities such as Push or Shoulder Charge that negate the ability, and, if well timed; can see the opponent taking zero damage. 

3.) Frenzy can be 100% dodged / evaded resulting in zero damage done. 

4.) Frenzy cannot resolve most map elevation changes (this will never be fixed, I get that, but it’s a factor none the less).

5.) Frenzy’s AOE (even with full star card) is SO narrow that given the higher degree of mobility the Devs have put into the game its opportunity for use shrinks. Often when a player properly intends to use Frenzy at a critical point it will not activate because the target that “was” intent AOE now isn’t. If you attempt to activate Frenzy while your opponent simultaneously dodges / evades or otherwise uses an ability you’re beat. 

---

This was an ability designed with infantry in mind, so it is not going to be super effective against heroes. Much like Finn’s Undercover, it was made to affect infantry in large scale modes. 

1. It only leaps to another target after killing one. I. E. If you target Obi Wan and then kill him, you will leap to Luke. If you don’t kill Luke, you won’t move to a third target. 

2. Correct, but that also happens with other rush abilities. 

3. Incorrect. While the first couple swings can be dodged, the final will always land, even through blocks. This is really good for putting pressure on heroes. But, I admit, it is annoying. 

4. Correct. The Superman Kylo is still in effect. 

5. This ability is designed to cut short distances and get kills quickly. If it could hit at a longer range, it would be very OP. Also, it still targets enemies, despite whether or not they are dodging(at least on PS4). Moreover, you have an ability that is made to pull enemies close, and another that freezes guys. So you don’t really need it to have a long range, especially as a saber hero. 

Also, restricting ability use of the target is not going to help anything. How can Han fight Kylo if he can’t use his thicc shoulders? It would probably just mess up HvV(and blaster hero’s ability to fight) even more than it already is. 

Its actually a good ability, against infantry. Against heroes, it is okay for some damage, but this really was an ability designed around standard troops. 

@Commander_Ney0  But if you recall Finn got a buff because he was weaker against heroes even though he was more infantry focused so that in & of itself doesn’t negate the poor logic here. 

1. That’s not quite true, Kylo will do an initial “leap” but the ability is designed to keep Kylo onto said target for the 3 strikes (unless countered), this means, for example, if a hero opponent dodges backwards the ability is “supposed” to leap or lunge may be a better term; to keep Kylo on the target. Yes, if Kylo defeats the first target he will “leap” to another, however, what I’m speaking to is the fact that Kylo will not consistently stay on target, for example he’ll perform the first leap & strike and if the opponent dodges Kylo will simply stand there; the other two strikes are ignored. That’s not as intended.

2. Not really; Kenobi’s DR, for example, can actually negate opponents abilities while maintaining its integrity. The same with Rey’s dash; only few abilities actually stop them and that’s more to poor servers & mechanics than anything but it exists. I’ve watched a Rey dashing right through a proper Vader choke AOE; there’s clearly a priority recognition problem and as such we shouldn’t have abilities like that. Also keep in mind that unlike ANY other dash ability Frenzy is fully automated; other dash attacks see the player exercising some control over their use; Frenzy doesn’t which puts it in a lower category. 

3. 100% FALSE! I see the 3rd strike dodged OFTEN; I don’t mean rarely I mean OFTEN! Especially against blaster heroes with high dodge such as Han. I’m playing on Xbox, not PS so I can’t speak to whether there’s a difference there. I know the 3rd strike is SUPPOSED to bypass blocks but it doesn’t if the player is in dodge. See my response to #1 above; this is compounded if the ability fails to register all 3 strikes. (On a side note) I don’t know how built in this is but on Xbox there is a clear inconsistency of ability register on players in dodge. While it was never a thing for players to recognize a block while dodging what I do see lately is that high mobility players in a dodge action which should otherwise be affected by a properly timed ability are often not. 

4. Superman Kylo sucks and given the degree of maps with significant elevation changes this presents a more than minor consideration regarding the overall balance and usability of the ability.

5. I’m not saying the AOE distance needs to be longer I’m suggesting it needs to be wider; it’s currently too narrow. Widening it will not make it OP in the least. Your comparison of Kylo’s other crowd control abilities is valid but slightly off because you have to consider the impact the cast time has with them. I completely agree that using a combo of either abilities with Frenzy is a solid benefit but, again, I’m not advocating a distance AOE increase but a width increase. 

Han can EASILY fight Kylo, Han has 2 .. count them 2 un-clickable abilities PLUS high dodge rate. Using Han properly he can still dodge Kylo’s attacks and Frenzy so it’s not as if Han has no options but to just get damaged. 

I know what Frenzy is supposed to do in theory what I’m telling you is that’s not what’s happening and the likely causes for which are multiple and some of them are unresolvable at this point. In terms of engineering or development, in this case, you always design to your weakest element and go from there; this ensures the greatest comprehension. In our case I will say that Xbox is the weakest platform but has a significant penetration in the market so it’s pitiful to simply ignore the platform all together. I recognize that not all platforms are experiencing the issues that I am which is why I’m recommending these specific changes; they’ll contribute a great balance improvement to the character without making him OP elsewhere. Kylo’s strike rate, dodge rate, & cast times (to name a few) are mediocre and mid range; he doesn’t excel or lead in any category which many other characters do. I’m not saying that Kylo needs to but I’m mentioning that because it goes to show there’s room for him to be advanced a little. 

They just need to make it more consistent in landing all 3 hits, provided its not properly countered. Landing one strike then shooting up into the air for no reason, or having to hit R1/L1 5-6 times to lock on when the target is clearly in range and not obstructed is ridiculous. 

@VetteC5RX 

1. That is a bug. The way it is designed is to stay on the target. So yes, you are correct. 

2. But Frenzy doesn’t hit once. It does a lot of damage and is the only homing ability that is also a rush. 

3. There is a good chance this is server lag. EA’s awful servers can’t keep up with a lot of this game, especially where I live. 

4. We don’t really have an argument here. 

5. You don’t necessarily need an increase it’s width. All one has to do is look around.  I wouldn’t mind a width increase, but the ability doesn’t really need it. 

Han was a poor example. Yes he has up to three rolls. How about Lando or Finn. They don’t really have any way to counter a saber hero. 

Kylo is actually really good. He has two abilities that can mess up a team defending a spot. The other, although somewhat buggy, is still good at getting kills. He fills the role of what I call “aggressive support”. Stunning enemies, clearing areas and assisting allies in kills. But they don’t actually buff people. 

On a side note, it’s amazing that we can get such an argument out of one ability. Imagine an entire hero. 

@Commander_Ney0 I wouldn’t call Frenzy’s damage “a lot”, slightly above a regular strike after the last nerf. If it did a heap of damage I could see being conservative with it but keep in mind the ability isn’t working properly also so the risk vs reward factor isn’t balanced.

I agree that poor sever quality impacts this a lot and is one of the factors isn’t can’t be resolved. 

as for the AOE width; it really does need it; as some other players have commented it doesn’t activate when triggered because it can’t resolve an opponent being within the AOE space & time properly. The main way we could resolve this is by widening the AOE so that when the player triggers it on an openly who is mobile it will register. 

Prior to many of the updates this wasn’t necessary but now that mobility is a larger factor the game simply can’t cope properly.

Han is a great example if we’re talking about balance. Lando has been neglected for most of the game and although he’s weak he isn’t a good case for Kylo having a flawed or weak Frenzy. Finn with his buff sees his squad in a constant state of abilities plus his deadeye buff also makes him formidable; same with Leia. 

Kylo’s other abilities are great but keep in mind they’re fully block-able and evade-able; he’s not one of the characters who has guaranteed abilities so while they’re great they’re far from being OP or extra; especially if you’re playing with randoms. His other two abilities are fine but Frenzy isn’t just a “little” buggy it’s very buggy and it inhibits the ability from being any good. Since some of the bug causes can’t be fixed the only balancing solution is to modify it to compensate; which is exactly what’s been done with other characters. 

BTW I wouldn’t call this an argument 😉

As a follow up I went through patch & update notes and I do not find where the Devs state anywhere that Frenzy cannot be dodged for all 3 strikes. 

the assumption that the 3rd strike on its target cannot be dodged / evaded is just that, an assumption.

this is supported by the short recharge rate of the Frenzy ability. The Devs seemingly understand that the ability has a high likelihood of counter through dodge and therefore a low / non regular damage dealing ability so it has a shorter cool down. If Frenzy was published to have a non dodge-able effect we’d see a longer cool down. 

lastly, we can’t compare Fenzy to any other “dash” attack because the player has zero control over the ability once it’s triggered. Other dash attacks allow the player to control them; Frenzy is automated and although it’s a“targeted” dash attack; in this case it’s not providing a benefit because it isn’t working. IF and I do mean IF Frenzy was player controlled then it would be much more fair for opponents to have the option to counter with their own abilities because the player could compensate for that but in this case the automation cannot. 

So given that all opponents DO have a valid counter to Frenzy that allows them to escape with no damage dealt (dodge / evade) if done properly, AND that players don’t have full control over the ability like other “dash” attacks, AND that the ability is failing to either activate or register all 3 strikes on a REGULAR basis; I maintain that my request is valid. 

all of those conditions are true; an AOE width increase and a passive addition to the ability similar to Kenobi’s “restrictive mind trick” are a fair balance for all of those. 

@VetteC5RX  Okay, I understand. You have a lot of valid points, and perhaps Frenzy does deserve a buff. I can tell you’re intent on this and I concede on most of my points. 

That being said, I still have a couple:

Most heroes and infantry only have two dodges. Only Infiltrators, Han, and Ariels can, and they need a card. Therefore, you will have a hard time dodging all three strikes. 

I disagree with cancelling abilities. That just makes it OP. Obi Wan has that ability because he is defensively focused, and can’t do a lot of damage without his actual saber strikes. Say Leia has her E-11 active. When Kylo Ren uses Frenzy on her, it deactivates? What do you want for abilities already active?

Yeah, this isn’t an argument, true. How about debate?🥳

@Commander_Ney0 unless you’re running a card for Kylo “Frenzy” only has a 10 meter range; incredibly short for any ability on the roster. This makes staying out of the AOE fairly easy. For saber users all you have to do is block strikes 1 & 2 and then dodge the 3rd so for ALL saber users, there ya go, Frenzy negated. If you’re a Luke with insta-cast you can pop off a nice push in between strikes and essentially use Frenzy against Kylo; do you suggest this is balanced? Perhaps it should be a going rule that Kylo never use Frenzy against Luke or Han or even Rey who can pop her dash in between and hit Kylo multiple times? Given that those players are often staples in HvV that’s a pretty garbage scenario. 

Blaster uses may not be able to dodge all 3 strikes but they can dodge out of the AOE. Remember base distance is 10 meters but that width narrows as you get closer to Kylo, an experienced blaster user can take advantage of that by closing distance and dodging out of the narrower portion of the AOE and thus Frenzy won’t register. Also consider they all have range and most have high DPS; this means that blasters using their abilities and attributes properly can deal damage to Kylo well before he’s in range of Frenzy which means any blaster has a real opportunity to kill Kylo during Frenzy which is fair.

Also, let’s evaluate the damage output; base, Frenzy deals LESS damage than a regular saber strike. If it were even moderately greater that would be one thing but less just doesn’t make sense and causes a hard choice to make. You can card buff Fenzys damage but consider the current state of gameplay with high movement characters. Remember the 10 meter issue; you can also buff that to 14 meters but this creates a bit of a paradox: do I 1.) buff the distance and have an actual “chance” of the ability activating or 2.) buff the damage and although the likelihood of use goes way down maybe net more damage? 

Players are being forced to buff an ability just one TRY and get it to work and even then it often doesn’t due to other factors. If it worked either with activation OR the number of strikes I wouldn’t even make this post .. heck if it was a rare occurrence I wouldn’t but this is an every game multiple times per match issue. 

as for “cancelling” NO, I’m not asking abilities to be cancelled! If a player triggers an ability prior to Frenzy they should keep it. If Leia activates her E-11 it should stay active; If Lando throws his disabler it should trigger at its specified time.I’m saying the restriction should prevent activation of currently non active abilities only for the duration of Frenzy, not to cancel ones that have been already turned on; that would be OP. 

There are just too many scenarios where heroes can exploit Fenzy to do more damage to Kylo than he can do to his opponents and it’s not hard to do. If it try to trigger Frenzy I have to hope it activates (which btw this has been an issue for over a year now), then, if it wasn’t evaded, I have to hope it doles out all 3 strikes, then I have to hope it isn’t further blocked + evaded by a saber hero, then I have to hope it isn’t negated completely by a shoulder charge, dash strike, defensive rush, heroic might, unleash, rolling charge, charge slam, detonate charge, or any number of available stuns ... most all of those will end up doing more damage to Kylo than the one strike you might get with Frenzy plus exposes Kylo to combo counter attacks yielding even more risk. 

That combined with its regular failure to activate plus its bugs plus is low damage output means that it needs something to make it a more competitive ability. It’s just not balanced in this gameplay environment.