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JohnnySteelAlph's avatar
8 years ago

Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons

Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beating them now brings no joy. Don't get me wrong, I like all the turns in battles today as compared to the Poe days, but the constant taunts pulling focus fire, the foresight spam from GK, the heal / equalize from Chirrut bringing near dead characters to near full health requiring more attacks to kill, the constant counter attacks...it's just a bad fight.

The lesson part though comes in that they break the tactical game - that's the element of the game where have to choose characters to matchup properly with the opponent. I'll give a specific example comparing Troopers and using a good, but not the best, team to face in arena: Chaze + Wiggs + R2.

Now, facing this team you want the following:

1. Pre-taunt for the triple shot
2. Passive mid-round taunter to take the Chirrut bombs after Wiggs triple and the heavy single shot from Biggs and Wedge
3. Healer for the damage dealt out
4. Heavy damage attacker to actually kill stuff
5. An AOE enemy buff remover for the R2 smoke screen so you aren't pinned on Baze
6. Cleanse / ten up to remove the burn / stun and / or prevent burn / stun from R2

These are the tactical considerations you need to evaluate when putting a team together.

Now let's look at Troopers as an example and compare them to Chaze and what they do:

Snowtrooper: Satisfies (4) above
Shoretrooper: Satisfies (1) and (3) above ... and partially solves (2) with Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper: Along with Shore, kinda satisfied (2) above in that between the 2 you can have good mid-round taunt capability for damage cover
Deathtrooper: Satisfies (5) above as well as (4) with the deathmark
Veers: Satisfies (4) above with the assist call and contingently he handles (3) if you kill something

So between 5 characters, no one does 6, only generally each one has a role, maybe 2 or so at most - Shore is pretty balanced in that he has multiple skills, but is slow and also low damage, so he's a tactical tool with tradeoffs.

Now let's look at 1-6 above through the Chaze lens:

Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)

That's as clear an example as I can make on why a Chaze abomination shouldn't be introduced in to the game again. They break the actual "game" of GoH in that you don't have to think about constructing a team in any specific manner relative to your opponent. They actually outskill all 5 recently revamped troopers. Troopers should be a team they look to create more of - different skills, working together, needs tactical decisions to be made in order to matchup to the opponent's strength and weaknesses.

Again to reiterate, don't nerf Chaze - they are not unbeatable - but let's work on making this a game again that involves tradeoffs when selecting teams and heroes relative to your opponent.

209 Replies

  • "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087691" wrote:
    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087639" wrote:
    "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087594" wrote:
    "hilikus;c-1082959" wrote:
    "Dark_Light;c-1081575" wrote:

    Reading comprehension -1


    "dough;c-1082610" wrote:
    "hilikus;c-1081663" wrote:
    "dough;c-1081606" wrote:
    oh great, another "can be beaten easily" automaton who makes the claim yet doesn't back it up with anything factual... Zzzzzz

    define "easily" and cite these "many other teams.


    Is that reall up for debate? No one is denying that except you. Just look it up on YouTube or here on the forum. I personally beat them consistently with Wiggs + lando + Boba + St han. But unfortunately i didn't take the time because I actually thought nobody cares about that.

    So definition of easy: 80% success rate. Happy now?



    nah, why don't *you* look it up on YT or the forums, i'm not your personal assistant and i'm not the one making spurious claims about "easily beaten" and "multiple teams."

    Quick YT seatch, there you go:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4nC2F-nXcw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOmNJ_BaU9Q
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7IkubZiGg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVN_ilC8nI

    But I am sure they all dont count for some reason you will tell me soon.
    Also before Zaul, Empire under Zader or EP with TFP and Shore was the meta.

    "dough;c-1082610" wrote:
    i just don't think you're getting anywhere near that (with STH no less) and if you were you wouldn't be foisting your claims off onto other players on YT or this forum.
    What do you want me to do, guy? They are pretty easily beat with Boba and a fast ST Han. Ability Block on Baze, Taunt from Han, hammer on Baze and just chip him away with all those extra Turn Meter you are getting. Pretty solid strategy. By the time he is dead, Chirrut has a huge amount of buffs -> Execute from Boba and it is pretty much over. I did not make a recording of it so believe it or not. I can tell you though: I switched out ST Hand and Chaze in not because of other Chaze, but because that game breaking Zaul Abomination. Good luck facing him without Chaze.

    "Dark_Light;c-1081575" wrote:
    nobody's denying this except me? you've got 7 pages of posts that largely fly in the face of your assertions...
    Read the first Post, man. The debate here is, it is not about if they are beatable or not but how they bring too much stuff to the table as a duo. And here I disagree. It should be all about if they are beatable without chaze and some teams or not that defines if they are game breaking or not. I know they are extremely strong and probably should never made that strong. But I say game Breaking is another level still.
    You are indeed the only one who claims they are unbeatable without Chaze.

    Hey, person who refuses to read all the other points addressed in this thread.

    Beatable does not equal balance.


    Hey person who doesn't pay attention to logic. Beatable means all your balance brownie points are really moot.

    You truly do not have the slightest clue of balance or game design and it's evident.

    Still waiting for that response about LSD in S8 on WoW.

    Months old but I haven't forgot :)


    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.
  • "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087691" wrote:
    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087639" wrote:
    "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087594" wrote:
    "hilikus;c-1082959" wrote:
    "Dark_Light;c-1081575" wrote:

    Reading comprehension -1


    "dough;c-1082610" wrote:
    "hilikus;c-1081663" wrote:
    "dough;c-1081606" wrote:
    oh great, another "can be beaten easily" automaton who makes the claim yet doesn't back it up with anything factual... Zzzzzz

    define "easily" and cite these "many other teams.


    Is that reall up for debate? No one is denying that except you. Just look it up on YouTube or here on the forum. I personally beat them consistently with Wiggs + lando + Boba + St han. But unfortunately i didn't take the time because I actually thought nobody cares about that.

    So definition of easy: 80% success rate. Happy now?



    nah, why don't *you* look it up on YT or the forums, i'm not your personal assistant and i'm not the one making spurious claims about "easily beaten" and "multiple teams."

    Quick YT seatch, there you go:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4nC2F-nXcw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOmNJ_BaU9Q
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7IkubZiGg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVN_ilC8nI

    But I am sure they all dont count for some reason you will tell me soon.
    Also before Zaul, Empire under Zader or EP with TFP and Shore was the meta.

    "dough;c-1082610" wrote:
    i just don't think you're getting anywhere near that (with STH no less) and if you were you wouldn't be foisting your claims off onto other players on YT or this forum.
    What do you want me to do, guy? They are pretty easily beat with Boba and a fast ST Han. Ability Block on Baze, Taunt from Han, hammer on Baze and just chip him away with all those extra Turn Meter you are getting. Pretty solid strategy. By the time he is dead, Chirrut has a huge amount of buffs -> Execute from Boba and it is pretty much over. I did not make a recording of it so believe it or not. I can tell you though: I switched out ST Hand and Chaze in not because of other Chaze, but because that game breaking Zaul Abomination. Good luck facing him without Chaze.

    "Dark_Light;c-1081575" wrote:
    nobody's denying this except me? you've got 7 pages of posts that largely fly in the face of your assertions...
    Read the first Post, man. The debate here is, it is not about if they are beatable or not but how they bring too much stuff to the table as a duo. And here I disagree. It should be all about if they are beatable without chaze and some teams or not that defines if they are game breaking or not. I know they are extremely strong and probably should never made that strong. But I say game Breaking is another level still.
    You are indeed the only one who claims they are unbeatable without Chaze.

    Hey, person who refuses to read all the other points addressed in this thread.

    Beatable does not equal balance.


    Hey person who doesn't pay attention to logic. Beatable means all your balance brownie points are really moot.

    You truly do not have the slightest clue of balance or game design and it's evident.

    Still waiting for that response about LSD in S8 on WoW.

    Months old but I haven't forgot :)


    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.

    http://thefw.com/files/2013/05/MaskDancing.gif

  • "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory
  • "Arimanius;c-1087767" wrote:

    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory


    Lol, OK... I lost the debate, fine, all of you win. Yay for you!

    I don't use Chaze, but I do love the challenge of battling against him, (and beating him, especially because many of you apparently can't). If they are nerfed, a major challenge that is fun for me will be taken away.

    So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry for being selfish and trying to keep my entertainment alive and well.
  • "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1088036" wrote:
    "Arimanius;c-1087767" wrote:

    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory


    Lol, OK... I lost the debate, fine, all of you win. Yay for you!

    I don't use Chaze, but I do love the challenge of battling against him, (and beating him, especially because many of you apparently can't). If they are nerfed, a major challenge that is fun for me will be taken away.

    So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry for being selfish and trying to keep my entertainment alive and well.


    We never argued it couldn´t be beaten, it´s just not healthy for the game, it doesn´t make any sense to have two toons that can do everything that all the rest of toons can. It´s ridiculous
  • "Arimanius;c-1088094" wrote:
    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1088036" wrote:
    "Arimanius;c-1087767" wrote:

    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory


    Lol, OK... I lost the debate, fine, all of you win. Yay for you!

    I don't use Chaze, but I do love the challenge of battling against him, (and beating him, especially because many of you apparently can't). If they are nerfed, a major challenge that is fun for me will be taken away.

    So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry for being selfish and trying to keep my entertainment alive and well.


    We never argued it couldn´t be beaten, it´s just not healthy for the game, it doesn´t make any sense to have two toons that can do everything that all the rest of toons can. It´s ridiculous

    It's really as simple as these two sentences.
  • "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087594" wrote:

    Hey, person who refuses to read all the other points addressed in this thread.

    Beatable does not equal balance.

    Oh hey person who masterfully full quotes but obviously cannot be bothered to read what he is quoting.
    Especially four you I will highlight my point again:


    "hilikus;c-1082959" wrote:
    ...The debate here is, it is not about if they are beatable or not but how they bring too much stuff to the table as a duo. And here I disagree. It should be all about if they are beatable without chaze and some teams or not that defines if they are game breaking or not. I know they are extremely strong and probably should never made that strong. But I say game Breaking is another level still.
    ....

    As you can see you are not really making a point if you just repeat your claim "Beatable does not equal balance" and ignore my argument at the same time. Because I think you are right ;)
    My point is "the more different teams you can use to beat them without using them yourself, the more balanced they are".
    Since Chaze are beatable with some teams, I would give them a "not really balanced but there are way worse combinations out there".
  • "Arimanius;c-1088094" wrote:
    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1088036" wrote:
    "Arimanius;c-1087767" wrote:

    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory


    Lol, OK... I lost the debate, fine, all of you win. Yay for you!

    I don't use Chaze, but I do love the challenge of battling against him, (and beating him, especially because many of you apparently can't). If they are nerfed, a major challenge that is fun for me will be taken away.

    So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry for being selfish and trying to keep my entertainment alive and well.


    We never argued it couldn´t be beaten, it´s just not healthy for the game, it doesn´t make any sense to have two toons that can do everything that all the rest of toons can. It´s ridiculous


    +100000000000000000000000000
  • "hilikus;c-1092383" wrote:
    "Jedi_Reach_;c-1087594" wrote:

    Hey, person who refuses to read all the other points addressed in this thread.

    Beatable does not equal balance.

    Oh hey person who masterfully full quotes but obviously cannot be bothered to read what he is quoting.
    Especially four you I will highlight my point again:


    "hilikus;c-1082959" wrote:
    ...The debate here is, it is not about if they are beatable or not but how they bring too much stuff to the table as a duo. And here I disagree. It should be all about if they are beatable without chaze and some teams or not that defines if they are game breaking or not. I know they are extremely strong and probably should never made that strong. But I say game Breaking is another level still.
    ....

    As you can see you are not really making a point if you just repeat your claim "Beatable does not equal balance" and ignore my argument at the same time. Because I think you are right ;)
    My point is "the more different teams you can use to beat them without using them yourself, the more balanced they are".
    Since Chaze are beatable with some teams, I would give them a "not really balanced but there are way worse combinations out there".

    For*

    And why should I say what me and many, many others have said over and over again?

    Why reinvent the wheel when there are over 8 pages in your face?

    Let me help you ----------v
    "Arimanius;c-1088094" wrote:
    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1088036" wrote:
    "Arimanius;c-1087767" wrote:

    "ImYourHuckleberry;c-1087709" wrote:
    I'll pass on the challenge.... I never made the debate personal... So go away.


    flawless victory


    Lol, OK... I lost the debate, fine, all of you win. Yay for you!

    I don't use Chaze, but I do love the challenge of battling against him, (and beating him, especially because many of you apparently can't). If they are nerfed, a major challenge that is fun for me will be taken away.

    So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry for being selfish and trying to keep my entertainment alive and well.


    We never argued it couldn´t be beaten, it´s just not healthy for the game, it doesn´t make any sense to have two toons that can do everything that all the rest of toons can. It´s ridiculous


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