Easy counter to phoneix squad

"Ig88isboss;970135" wrote:

"Woodroward;970131" wrote:

"Kyno;970122" wrote:

"Woodroward;970104" wrote:

"Kyno;970098" wrote:

"Woodroward;970047" wrote:

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

Most teams that I encounter that run zaul also have SA for the speed boost, and if not it's still a struggle for you to put about 120 speed on chopper to get that taunt off, that's about what you would need to get faster then a 100 speed mod ed palp. Sid is pretty fast too, depends on the team someone is making.

Dots, HI, shock, 2 of the 4 of those directly counter uniques present and enough dots makes it a wash. Not dealing with debuffs against a zaul team is a good way to not win.

Daze removes half the leader ability by not allowing tm gain too.

Shock stops taunts too, so after the aoe, a focused attack with debuffs on a toon make these uniques start to fall apart. On paper that is, I hope I'm wrong but it's just not looking as solid as it did when I saw that leader ability.

Every time a phoenix toon suffers a debuff they recover 25% of their max health.
Whenever they take damage they have bonus protection appear if they don't currently have any.
So you damage them, they get bonus protection. You burn that down and hit them again, and they generate more bonus protection.
Not only does debuffing these guys not hurt them, it helps them.

Seriously, these guys are like Kylo Ren, go ahead and throw dots on them, it leads to good things for them.


The survivability these toons have is monstrous. There's never any need to worry about losing on offense,

Again your Sith debuffs will NOT HELP you against these toons. You need PURE DAMAGE.

Unless those debuffs are shock or healing immunity, 2 of the main buffs on a focused attack from a zaul team.

But again, they STILL get that automatically refreshing bonus protection, which means that your short term healing immunity and shock will wear off before you can wear them down enough to kill them. Then they regenerate it all.

Truth of the matter is, you didn't even get to attack the people you managed to have those debuffs on anyway because the taunter cleansed himself.

You don't recover protection with healing immunity...

Protection recovery and bonus protection are not the same thing. Bonus protection is those purple bars ships give out. Healing immunity doesn't prevent that. You will have to hit for more than 15% of their protection every hit to even make a dent...

So you're thinking. I will just rotate between them to wait for the bonus protection to fall off like it does in ships... Nope, they all have protection and health regeneration too, so if you don't zerg one guy down he'll just be full again.

So you're attacking the heck out of a guy who's counterattacking you, has protection constantly appearing from thin air, is regenerating health whenever he gets a debuff (if he ever does), Plus healing up a lot whenever he takes his turn.


Kanaan is definitely the first target for the counter, and health on debuff. Chopper is next for the health regeneration and bonus protection... IF you can get Kanaan down to begin with... You better have a LOT of zerg.

I feel like TFP will be important with buff imunity

TFP won't help either. This team is built to profit from being debuffed.

Think of some solution involving buffs and damage, not debuffs. The solution with debuffs is not a good solution. Basically, if your good counter involves debuffs... It's not a good counter.

DPS and Buffs, THOSE are the Phoenix's weaknesses.

Buff wipe? Yes.
Buff immunity? No. that's an extra 25% health you just gave them.

Zader vs. Phoenix squad. Dots hit. Take out bonus protection and health and protection that was regenerated at turn start. Then the dots refresh and the Phoenix toon gains 100% health from all the debuffs that just landed on them, as well as getting more bonus protection.

Phoenix will be tough, changing how battles flow. That's for sure. Just curious, nihilus can annihilate, even if it's a phoenix tank, beginning the weakening of the Phoenix squad under hera (L). Back up plan won't work when annihilated. Once one phoenix goes down, is that enough to unravel the team?

"ImYourHuckleberry;970192" wrote:
Phoenix will be tough, changing how battles flow. That's for sure. Just curious, nihilus can annihilate, even if it's a phoenix tank, beginning the weakening of the Phoenix squad under hera (L). Back up plan won't work when annihilated. Once one phoenix goes down, is that enough to unravel the team?

Taking out Kanaan will be huge. Get rid of the long taunter, get rid of the health on debuff, get rid of the counter attack. Chopper is second kill priority IMO for the health regeneration and bonus protection.

If you can take out Kanaan, you've got a good shot. Chopper too, and their mitigation's pretty much gone. Only question is if you can survive long enough at that point to take out the other 3, because they won't have much survivability left.

"Woodroward;970131" wrote:

"Kyno;970122" wrote:

"Woodroward;970104" wrote:

"Kyno;970098" wrote:

"Woodroward;970047" wrote:

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

Most teams that I encounter that run zaul also have SA for the speed boost, and if not it's still a struggle for you to put about 120 speed on chopper to get that taunt off, that's about what you would need to get faster then a 100 speed mod ed palp. Sid is pretty fast too, depends on the team someone is making.

Dots, HI, shock, 2 of the 4 of those directly counter uniques present and enough dots makes it a wash. Not dealing with debuffs against a zaul team is a good way to not win.

Daze removes half the leader ability by not allowing tm gain too.

Shock stops taunts too, so after the aoe, a focused attack with debuffs on a toon make these uniques start to fall apart. On paper that is, I hope I'm wrong but it's just not looking as solid as it did when I saw that leader ability.

Every time a phoenix toon suffers a debuff they recover 25% of their max health.
Whenever they take damage they have bonus protection appear if they don't currently have any.
So you damage them, they get bonus protection. You burn that down and hit them again, and they generate more bonus protection.
Not only does debuffing these guys not hurt them, it helps them.

Seriously, these guys are like Kylo Ren, go ahead and throw dots on them, it leads to good things for them.


The survivability these toons have is monstrous. There's never any need to worry about losing on offense,

Again your Sith debuffs will NOT HELP you against these toons. You need PURE DAMAGE.

Unless those debuffs are shock or healing immunity, 2 of the main buffs on a focused attack from a zaul team.

But again, they STILL get that automatically refreshing bonus protection, which means that your short term healing immunity and shock will wear off before you can wear them down enough to kill them. Then they regenerate it all.

Truth of the matter is, you didn't even get to attack the people you managed to have those debuffs on anyway because the taunter cleansed himself.

Healing immunity blocks protection regen.

Is a single toon debuffing going to be enough, just not sure it's going to work

"Kyno;970217" wrote:

"Woodroward;970131" wrote:

"Kyno;970122" wrote:

"Woodroward;970104" wrote:

"Kyno;970098" wrote:

"Woodroward;970047" wrote:

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

Most teams that I encounter that run zaul also have SA for the speed boost, and if not it's still a struggle for you to put about 120 speed on chopper to get that taunt off, that's about what you would need to get faster then a 100 speed mod ed palp. Sid is pretty fast too, depends on the team someone is making.

Dots, HI, shock, 2 of the 4 of those directly counter uniques present and enough dots makes it a wash. Not dealing with debuffs against a zaul team is a good way to not win.

Daze removes half the leader ability by not allowing tm gain too.

Shock stops taunts too, so after the aoe, a focused attack with debuffs on a toon make these uniques start to fall apart. On paper that is, I hope I'm wrong but it's just not looking as solid as it did when I saw that leader ability.

Every time a phoenix toon suffers a debuff they recover 25% of their max health.
Whenever they take damage they have bonus protection appear if they don't currently have any.
So you damage them, they get bonus protection. You burn that down and hit them again, and they generate more bonus protection.
Not only does debuffing these guys not hurt them, it helps them.

Seriously, these guys are like Kylo Ren, go ahead and throw dots on them, it leads to good things for them.


The survivability these toons have is monstrous. There's never any need to worry about losing on offense,

Again your Sith debuffs will NOT HELP you against these toons. You need PURE DAMAGE.

Unless those debuffs are shock or healing immunity, 2 of the main buffs on a focused attack from a zaul team.

But again, they STILL get that automatically refreshing bonus protection, which means that your short term healing immunity and shock will wear off before you can wear them down enough to kill them. Then they regenerate it all.

Truth of the matter is, you didn't even get to attack the people you managed to have those debuffs on anyway because the taunter cleansed himself.

Healing immunity blocks protection regen.

Is a single toon debuffing going to be enough, just not sure it's going to work

Bonus protection (protection up) is not protection regeneration. Healing immunity doesn't block it. It is a buff not a heal, like the purple protection bars on ships, or like what nebbitt does with his basic.

Thinking about it, between the phoenix and Zaul, Plo Koon may make a rise. Buff wipe on basic makes him great for actually dealing damage to phoenix members, and the his leader will make Zaul's stealth a double edged sword.

That means he should be fairly useful against two of the soon to be top meta teams. Clone synergy would be good too, throw him in with Rex...