Forum Discussion

DziNeIT's avatar
8 years ago

Fixing Squad Arena

TL;DR at the bottom.

The problems

The biggest fundamental issue with squad arena is collusion. Not even specifically what those involved may refer to as "negative collusion" but collusion as a whole. Collusion damages the game because in collusive shards, it is impossible to break the top ranks without involving yourself in the collusion. It is therefore nigh impossible to genuinely fight for top spot in a shard day in, day out, when you only have five battles to fight with and, in shards with widespread collusion, you may find yourself forced down too far to realistically propel yourself back to top spot without multiple reset purchases.

Collusion is anti-competitive, and prevents squad arena from being a genuine competition between players. It stifles innovation in the evolution of the game's meta, as without the true competitive aspect of the game, there is far less incentive to try to build new teams that are capable of keeping you in the top spot. Finally, if you are in a highly collusive shard, attempting to play the game as it is meant to be played and compete with other players normally usually gets you targeted by those colluding, forcing you down the places.

An issue that fits under the topic of collusion is the ability for a group of five players to literally lock somebody from entering arena fights for a solid 25 minutes, usually right before payout time. This is not just bad ethically, it is a clear abuse of game mechanics, which can only be solved by preventing collusion entirely.

Squad arena's second large problem is that your shard, having been assigned at a very low level, is one you are then stuck with. I consider my own experience with the game to be a perfect example of why this is problematic. I started playing Galaxy of Heroes at release. I was consistently in the top 20 of my shard for a long period of time, until I stopped playing the game. I stopped playing for a few months - maybe four (these months happened to include the release of Darth Nihilus, which probably didn't work in my favour). Now, I cannot consistently break into the top 200, as effectively those at the top of the shard have spent four months longer than me collecting and upgrading their characters, yet the game places me in the same category as those players as they started playing at the same time as me.

The final problem I will go into on this post is the lack of balance within the arena meta, which comes as a result of true nerfs to overpowered compositions being rare, with the developers usually choosing to add equally overpowered counters instead. Now, this isn't necessarily directly related to the arena shard system in general. However, it is a further issue for players in my situation. When you're behind, without having the newest meta characters, the natural thing to do is to work on these characters. However, this is made very difficult by the state of the current major meta characters. General Kenobi is locked behind HAAT, which is only going to be available to players who already have great characters. Thrawn is locked behind a full 7* and relatively well geared Pheonix Squadron, which is a killer for players who need to focus on catching up in other areas already. Baze and Nihilus would take very nearly a year to farm free to play - as when you're not high up in the arena you can't really afford to be buying 320 crystal shipments over energy resets to farm crucial gear, which is also getting more and more difficult to obtain - with Baze having the additional problem that his node is incredibly difficult to 3* if you don't already have great characters. The volatility of the meta comes into play here, as once you've spent your year farming Baze and Nihilus, you'll find that suddenly, neither of them are at all arena viable because Ugnaught now has a unique ability meaning that taunts don't work and cooldowns can't be decreased. These things, in solitude, are not necessarily huge problems. Everyone knows that it would be pointless if every player could easily obtain every character. However, when combined with the issues with the squad arena system, I believe this to be significantly problematic.

The solutions

My suggestion for a modified squad arena system would, I believe, alleviate all of the problems with the functionality of the game mode I have talked about. Perhaps this is implausible, for development reasons, but I consider it important to at least present an attempt to fix these problems. After all, I have experience in game development and appreciate that solutions to these problems can be difficult to find. I will outline the fundamental idea of the system I wish to present, and explain what benefits it brings.


  • Semi-frequent mixing up of the shards


Shards should be re-assigned on a semi-frequent basis. This could be weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, or whatever is deemed to be the best frequency by the development team. The assignment of players to shards should use multiple factors - I'm sure some experimentation on testing servers could be done to figure out how best to do this - in order to guarantee fair competition in which players must innovate, not go with the flow, in order to reach the top spots - in a shard where 500 people have a fully geared and modded triple cleanse team, something's got to give. If shards were assigned semi-frequently based truly on the quality of a player's roster, we'd see an end to so many of the game's long-standing problems, such as free to play players being disenfranchised by whales dominating the top spots in their arena shards - the whales would, by and large, be facing each other. Now, I appreciate that there are perhaps costs regarding arena shard switching for the running of the game. However, I believe that this improved level of competition would encourage the spending of crystals on resets - again, when so many in a shard are at a similar level of roster quality, there's genuine competition to reach the top.

I would also propose that the amount of places that can be jumped in one battle increase significantly. From my view, there's no reason this should not be the case if your squad is strong enough to do so. This would decrease the ability of anyone to 'lock out' players their collusive squad has decided not to like.

These plans would, in addition, stop the discouragement of old players who have taken long breaks from returning to the game - when they return, they would be able to partake in a fair and balanced arena shard, with other players around their level as opposed to being stuck behind hundreds of people who have an X month advantage over them.

Alongside these changes, it could even be possible for each shard to have its own reward level. Players who are in a very high level, high gear shard would get more crystals for each rank than players in the same ranks in shards for new players. This would further balance the system. This could be combined with a narrowing in the gap for rewards, making the system fair on players who have spent a lot of money to gain an advantage and therefore still encouraging further spending on the game in the future.

The suggestions laid out above would, obviously, work best if the size of each arena shard were to be reduced, but I have accepted that this could be costly to the developers and probably not feasible as a result.


  • Alternative solutions


Alternative solutions (none of these would entirely fix squad arena's problems in the way my first solution would, but they would help) include:

  • A one time only reshuffle of the shards, with player names and IDs then hidden to prevent future collusion.
  • Rebalancing the rewards so that the disparity between first and top 200 isn't so large, to reduce incentives to rotate the top spots so heavily.
  • Find a way to remove the mechanic of not being able to battle while someone is battling you, so colluders have less weapons in their arsenal to enforce their oligopoly.


    TL;DR:

    • Squad arena is broken by all forms of collusion, by being stuck on the same shard you were assigned at the beginning of the game permanently, and by the way those who are already behind fall further behind due to the way the system works.
    • The solution is to rotate shards to keep everyone competing, with people on shards with others of the same competitiveness, allowing more innovation in the meta.
    • In addition, allowing people to jump more ranks per battle, particularly lower down the shard, would go a long way towards ending the strangleholds that collusive players have over many shards.
    • "Mageduckey;c-1208002" wrote:
      Except you haven't debunked anything. You're behind by 6 months because you left a persistent game server. You are more than welcome to create a new account if you want to bypass the time investment of others, but you must also pay the price of forfeiting your time investment. You cannot strip investment advantage from others without either investing your own or simultaneously stripping your own. Yes, that new player can reach higher ranks in arena easier, but they also don't have a roster worth mentioning, they can't do raids, they can't participate in a lot of events (especially legendary). They don't have nearly as much game access as you have, so to say they are better off is a limited view. Again, if you want to avoid the time investment disparity penalty of leaving an on-going game for 4 months, you have to either pay our start a new account. This is the business model the game is based on. They're shouldn't be any changes to it, and they're won't be because it's clearly working just fine for the game.

      Top payouts award far more crystals. The fastest way whales get gear is by buying it in shipments, not by farming it or getting it from raids. Switching up shards would reduce the amount of crystals whales get from arena, which would hurt them (just because they buy a lot of other crystals doesn't mean they don't benefit from the crystals in their daily arena payout).


      That's simply not accurate, because a player who starts new can easily get to the top of the arena, stay there, and then overtake the older returning player by virtue of greater rewards in the long run, so therefore it becomes the case that if you stop playing for a while, it is literally better for your long term prospects in the game to start a new account than return to the old one, which is a ridiculous way for it to work.

      The issue described in your second paragraph would already be solved by my scaling of rewards suggestion.

      Finally, it is absolute nonsense to suggest the current system works fine. Do you know how many people can't play squad arena properly at all because of being targeted from collusion? This forum has countless people facing the issue of people abusing game mechanics.
    • You say I'm not accurate, then go on to restate part of my point by suggesting starting a new account. Thanks for making my point for me?

      Increasing payouts cuts into CG's crystal sales, so that won't happen.

      The arena does work fine. I promise you you're not being targeted by colluding players out at the 200+ range; that just doesn't happen that far down. Your problem is that you left the game for a while and are at a disadvantage because you refuse to pay to make up for lost time. All you're doing is hiding that situation (that is innate to the business model of this game) in the discussion of collusion, potentially because you're aware of the negative impact a hiatus can have on persistent game server positioning.

      You already have your answer - if you don't want to pay, you need to start a new account to get around the advantage others have of investing 4 months more than you. The system will not change because it hurts CG's income and the continuation of the game.
    • "Mageduckey;c-1208038" wrote:
      You say I'm not accurate, then go on to restate part of my point by suggesting starting a new account. Thanks for making my point for me?

      Increasing payouts cuts into CG's crystal sales, so that won't happen.

      The arena does work fine. I promise you you're not being targeted by colluding players out at the 200+ range; that just doesn't happen that far down. Your problem is that you left the game for a while and are at a disadvantage because you refuse to pay to make up for lost time. All you're doing is hiding that situation (that is innate to the business model of this game) in the discussion of collusion, potentially because you're aware of the negative impact a hiatus can have on persistent game server positioning.

      You already have your answer - if you don't want to pay, you need to start a new account to get around the advantage others have of investing 4 months more than you. The system will not change because it hurts CG's income and the continuation of the game.


      And there you go. How can you possible argue that a system is effective when it literally is more rewarding in the long term to throw away six months of progress to make a new account than it is to continue with your six invested months. That's a textbook way of determining that a system doesn't work properly, so in a roundabout sort of way, you've counterargued yourself.

      I also never claimed I was personally the target of collusion, I was not writing because of myself. My post was a generic critique of the squad arena system, talking about problems faced by many, many players including my guildmates at times. Collusion is an entirely separate problem to what we've been discussing.

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.
    • "DziNeIT;c-1208876" wrote:

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.


      There are issues with a solution like this that would need to be fixed, and make this very bad as far as losing the current player base.

      • In a shuffle, who get first? people would not like to go from 1st to 100 in a shuffle
      • how do you shuffle, how do you deal with payout hour stacking? is it fair for someone to go from 3 at payout to 25?
      • some sort of mechanism would need to be implemented to flag a potential cheater (that ones easy)
      • in a single or infrequent shuffle this will hurt f2p that started 6 months ago vs 18 months ago. this is why time is used in the current shard sort. start time is the really only fair way to sort IMO
      • P2P have payed to have an advantage and taking that away by changing their shard would discourage them from paying any more because the value would change at each shuffle.


      There are other issues, but a shard shuffle creates a lot of issues that could destroy the current player base
    • "Kyno;c-1208964" wrote:
      "DziNeIT;c-1208876" wrote:

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.


      There are issues with a solution like this that would need to be fixed, and make this very bad as far as losing the current player base.

      • In a shuffle, who get first? people would not like to go from 1st to 100 in a shuffle
      • how do you shuffle, how do you deal with payout hour stacking? is it fair for someone to go from 3 at payout to 25?
      • some sort of mechanism would need to be implemented to flag a potential cheater (that ones easy)
      • in a single or infrequent shuffle this will hurt f2p that started 6 months ago vs 18 months ago. this is why time is used in the current shard sort. start time is the really only fair way to sort IMO
      • P2P have payed to have an advantage and taking that away by changing their shard would discourage them from paying any more because the value would change at each shuffle.


      There are other issues, but a shard shuffle creates a lot of issues that could destroy the current player base

      https://media.giphy.com/media/iXTrbbYMQBCMM/giphy.gif
    • "Kyno;c-1208964" wrote:
      "DziNeIT;c-1208876" wrote:

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.


      There are issues with a solution like this that would need to be fixed, and make this very bad as far as losing the current player base.

      • In a shuffle, who get first? people would not like to go from 1st to 100 in a shuffle
      • how do you shuffle, how do you deal with payout hour stacking? is it fair for someone to go from 3 at payout to 25?
      • some sort of mechanism would need to be implemented to flag a potential cheater (that ones easy)
      • in a single or infrequent shuffle this will hurt f2p that started 6 months ago vs 18 months ago. this is why time is used in the current shard sort. start time is the really only fair way to sort IMO
      • P2P have payed to have an advantage and taking that away by changing their shard would discourage them from paying any more because the value would change at each shuffle.


      There are other issues, but a shard shuffle creates a lot of issues that could destroy the current player base


      Sure, there are issues, but I think they could be worked around. I would opt for fairly frequent shards, with crystal rewards (but not arena currency) scaling with the relative difficulty of the shard as well as with place on the shard to allow those such as P2P players to continue to gain value from paying.

      Ranking players upon switches is definitely the biggest issue, but the issue can be mitigated by people switching shards immediately upon receiving rewards on the day of the switch, and by my other suggestion of allowing people to jump more positions per battle. There are, of course, further things to look into. And there are also other possible solutions. I just hope my ideas will start some form of dialogue on the clear issue the game faces.
    • "DziNeIT;c-1209773" wrote:
      "Kyno;c-1208964" wrote:
      "DziNeIT;c-1208876" wrote:

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.


      There are issues with a solution like this that would need to be fixed, and make this very bad as far as losing the current player base.

      • In a shuffle, who get first? people would not like to go from 1st to 100 in a shuffle
      • how do you shuffle, how do you deal with payout hour stacking? is it fair for someone to go from 3 at payout to 25?
      • some sort of mechanism would need to be implemented to flag a potential cheater (that ones easy)
      • in a single or infrequent shuffle this will hurt f2p that started 6 months ago vs 18 months ago. this is why time is used in the current shard sort. start time is the really only fair way to sort IMO
      • P2P have payed to have an advantage and taking that away by changing their shard would discourage them from paying any more because the value would change at each shuffle.


      There are other issues, but a shard shuffle creates a lot of issues that could destroy the current player base


      Sure, there are issues, but I think they could be worked around. I would opt for fairly frequent shards, with crystal rewards (but not arena currency) scaling with the relative difficulty of the shard as well as with place on the shard to allow those such as P2P players to continue to gain value from paying.

      Ranking players upon switches is definitely the biggest issue, but the issue can be mitigated by people switching shards immediately upon receiving rewards on the day of the switch, and by my other suggestion of allowing people to jump more positions per battle. There are, of course, further things to look into. And there are also other possible solutions. I just hope my ideas will start some form of dialogue on the clear issue the game faces.


      The larger range of sniping is a horrible idea. Its bad enough going from 1 to 5, never mind 1 to 15.

      shuffling shards will cost them P2P so i just dont think anyone will buy into this.

      for all the reasons i listed too it becomes a hugely complex system for F2p and p2p and many new players will not get into it.

      there is also no way to effectively rate a shard (except by age like it is now).
    • "Kyno;c-1210074" wrote:
      "DziNeIT;c-1209773" wrote:
      "Kyno;c-1208964" wrote:
      "DziNeIT;c-1208876" wrote:

      Also, I have laid out a solution which would enable CG to fix the problems without significantly discouraging spending on the game. Neither you nor I can truly say how my solution would impact that, because we don't know. The devs can do research on a wider scale and determine what impacts it would have, and if they find it to be damaging to their revenues that's ok, but there's simply no way to know unless they do some research on it.


      There are issues with a solution like this that would need to be fixed, and make this very bad as far as losing the current player base.

      • In a shuffle, who get first? people would not like to go from 1st to 100 in a shuffle
      • how do you shuffle, how do you deal with payout hour stacking? is it fair for someone to go from 3 at payout to 25?
      • some sort of mechanism would need to be implemented to flag a potential cheater (that ones easy)
      • in a single or infrequent shuffle this will hurt f2p that started 6 months ago vs 18 months ago. this is why time is used in the current shard sort. start time is the really only fair way to sort IMO
      • P2P have payed to have an advantage and taking that away by changing their shard would discourage them from paying any more because the value would change at each shuffle.


      There are other issues, but a shard shuffle creates a lot of issues that could destroy the current player base


      Sure, there are issues, but I think they could be worked around. I would opt for fairly frequent shards, with crystal rewards (but not arena currency) scaling with the relative difficulty of the shard as well as with place on the shard to allow those such as P2P players to continue to gain value from paying.

      Ranking players upon switches is definitely the biggest issue, but the issue can be mitigated by people switching shards immediately upon receiving rewards on the day of the switch, and by my other suggestion of allowing people to jump more positions per battle. There are, of course, further things to look into. And there are also other possible solutions. I just hope my ideas will start some form of dialogue on the clear issue the game faces.


      The larger range of sniping is a horrible idea. Its bad enough going from 1 to 5, never mind 1 to 15.

      shuffling shards will cost them P2P so i just dont think anyone will buy into this.

      for all the reasons i listed too it becomes a hugely complex system for F2p and p2p and many new players will not get into it.

      there is also no way to effectively rate a shard (except by age like it is now).


      Agree that larger jumps is just an awful idea, for a variety of reasons.

      But, on the other hand, a shard reshuffle is possible even if there would be some inconvenience caused for a few days. You could certainly mitigate that as much as possible with some planning. The bottom line is collusion, in general & not just negative, will be the downfall of this game. It's unavoidable. It needs to be addressed sooner than later because it's only going to get worse as shards age & time equalizes... "good collusion" will quickly become "negative collusion" once there are too many players to make it plausible & worthwhile for everyone. This is already happening on many shards. The same 8 to 10 names in the top 10 virtually all day assures you're in a negative collusion shard. Once someone's payout passes & they continue to sit in those ranks, helped by colluding with the other familiars, they are effectively blocking others payouts. And they're especially discouraging & blocking newer top teams from entering... because if that's allowed then that's even more ppl the pie needs to be split between... this just is not a sustainable system.