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SharnJilraedan's avatar
SharnJilraedan
Seasoned Newcomer
6 months ago

Relic Deltas - A critical look

Let's quickly get this out of the way - this is a bad decision. It's fundamentally a terrible choice, and will alienate 99% of the player base. For me (13M roster, PHK unlocked, 9/10 GL's, 98% of the roster relic'ed) I recognize there is probably value in this change for my roster, truth be told. Does that mean I want it? Oh, HELL NO. When I started SWGOH (at inception or within a month of release) I fell in love, partially because of the collect-a-thon with Star Wars characters, but that it was truly a bit of a chess game. The ability to eke out rewards in content with smart teams vs a heavy hand of just dominating the damage needed. The ability to strategize teams for Pit, HAAT, HSTR and the like was absolutely at the core of what I fell in love with and feel is the best part of the game. The ability to find/use smart counters, planning a defense in GAC that requires potentially utilizing less successful counters due to what exists out there. This will get rid of that. The ability to use my r3 to 5 Traya team, which has a very niche space, to deal with Queen Padme teams (not a guarantee, but absolutely allows me to use heavier counters where it needs to be).

I get it; This game is a balancing act, and releasing new characters where they don't utterly fully dominate the meta (hello Grand Mothers for example, GLO on her release, Thrawn and Wat being universal slot ins if we go back to the old old old pre-GL days etc), but also don't realistically fall by the wayside (Which I think the community feels a bit about Baylan and JMMW). It's hard not to invalidate people's work (which we saw with GM coming and just creating nothing but a massively bad sentiment or Leia, or even Datacrons where they did and still do break the meta) while introducing new stuff. We're at critical mass for law of unintended consequences. We're seeing massively negative sentiment with singular datacrons (Dark Side Rey, GM, Leia cron, etc) that ruin the game by making extremely tight and unreliable counters. So suddenly high powered rosters, if they do not have the perfect mods + crons + counter, they lose. 

I strongly recommend every single person realize that the DS Rey cron is the tip of the iceberg. It is how Relic Deltas will play out. If you don't have the Hoda cron to counter it, it doesn't matter. Small niche teams won't matter. Zetas and omis on less powerful teams become worthless (like BBM Omis on Omega and Crosshair will no longer be a lowe(er) value team to beat Quadme). This choice will invalidate the work we have and drop all value in our teams.

I went through a quick rough exercise and looked at current relic level mastery and took an alternative approach: What if we change mastery growth. Right now, it's weirdly decided.

For Relic levels 1 through 9, we have the following gains:

5/5/5/5/5/10/10/15/10

for a total of 

5/10/15/20/25/35/45/60/70

Which is a weird set of scaling, first of all. I said what if you create more value in your relic teams by increasing relic gains to:

5/5/5/10/10/10/15/15/15

Which bumps it up to

5/10/15/25/35/45/60/75/90

Or a delta of

0/ 0/ 0/ 5/ 10/ 10/ 15/ 15/ 20

So you now effectively shift the power of a relic 5 to relic 6 today, relic 7 to relic 8, and a relic 9 to an increase of 33% stronger today. Not only that, you end up having a new gap between relic 9 and 5 from current (45) to 55. It's a 10% shift in power towards the relic 9 teams. They introduced the concept of mastery as a strong lever to pull, and aren't looking at the easiest way to try to value your relic 9 without absolutely shredding existing investments. 

When you look at any game, when nerfs hit (which, let's be honest, this is a nerf) it is the single worst feeling. When you devalue a player's time, effort, skill, and even money by removing the value of what they put in, you lose players. They will leave, and will spend less, and become less of a revenue stream. We must acknowledge that this is an attempt to try to force a higher spend rate for a wider roster group, that CG is making some poor business decisions. We saw what this did to MSF; it shredded the player base by at least 30%, if not more. (Because these companies love to hide their DAU and performative stats, it's extremely hard to understand how a business choice plays out for us, the community) I've been parts of online gaming communities for 30+ years at this point. I hate to lose this community, but this will absolutely be the end of my time in SWGOH, period. I've spent so much time and effort and farming to do the goals I want, which is ensuring I have my entire roster relic'ed, so I can pivot for crons, pivot for new teams, pivot into new releases because I've truly enjoyed it. How, I'm seeing all of that work, passion, and effort be turned into not even worth the paper it's written on.

10 Replies

  • I'm already going F2P completely over this.  It's like your priest coming up to you and saying, "We're testing stealing by our congregation members for a while to see how it goes."  It might be contrary to the principles that our entire thing is founded upon, but we might move in this direction.  We "might" not do this...."

    As if your priest even suggesting such a thing wouldn't matter.  I'm livid that I gave CG hundreds of dollars this year and this is their response.  I bought their game at a higher price than I've ever paid for any discretionary entertainment in my life, and they do this to hundreds of hours of my gameplay?  Unbelievably insulting !

  • gufu21's avatar
    gufu21
    Seasoned Ace
    6 months ago

    This is so much better thought-out than what the devs proposed. I'm kind of flabbergasted that this wasn't the first thing they thought of: just nudging the mastery scaling slightly so that high levels get better scaling. 

    CG boxed themselves into this problem when they decided that the costs for higher relic levels climb exponentially, but the stat gains don't. So of course players aren't going to see as much value in relic 9, except for GLs, their requirements, and AB requirements. 

  • I do agree with having a better power scaling between the relics is so much better. I also can see a Relic 10 being added(I posted it in a recent post of mine), adding stats based on character's need. Kind of like the Gear 12 + Pieces that added protection to one character and not the other, Tenacity to one and not Potency. I would rather see this growth rate plus a (mini like rework to the whole list of characters), than this relic delta that limits players strategies because they don't have the money to get all their characters up to needed relics. I also can see R10 being the first (20) mastery bump in your updated formula above. To continue on after R10. I also can see us getting 7* mods as well during this time to scale up characters stats without this Relic Delta. They can call R10 Relic Delta, just not add what they have planned to it. 

  • I think they should scrap the entire delta idea and just tune up the power of R9 (and r10 when it arrives). Reward the spenders by making those uber-expensive relic levels actually super powerful without ruining the game for the 90% of the player base who is either F2P or casual spenders. 

    It's fine to reward spending, but why destroy it for everyone else? 

    If they keep this update as is, I'm quitting the game. I've spend probably $700 on the game over the years. That's a PS5 and a heap of games... all to enjoy this game and support their efforts. If CG's attitude is, "we only care about the players who spend $10,000 or more", everyone but the uber-whales will leave.

    Then, within a few months, all the whales will leave, because they realize there is no skill in victory, just how many more or less r9s do you have? Or, which player has the bigger trust fund?

  • I think it’s a brilliant idea, but they modify a little bit so that it’s going to a QoL improvement. 

    They should give the win to the players that have spent the most money on the game over the last three months. For TW , they should apply the same algorithm. This would enable us to get rid of the PvP content.

    For conquest and TB, they should define the max crate also depending on the money spent. 

    By doing so we would have to invest way less time with the game and could enjoy real life. 

    Note: This idea is just as brain-dead as playing a Levi mirror.

  • MasterSeedy's avatar
    MasterSeedy
    Seasoned Ace
    6 months ago

    CG boxed themselves into this problem when they decided that the costs for higher relic levels climb exponentially, but the stat gains don't.

    You and the OP made this same point. I've made it elsewhere. This is the fundamental issue. No one wants to relic a toon past (some arbitrary relic that makes sense for that person's place in the game, usually r3-r7) that they don't have to because at the top end the gains are simply not proportional to the investment. 

    But we can and do drop relic levels on as fast as we can get them bc even though we don't WANT to drop relic levels on for the sake of their stat gains, we do want to in order to use a team at a specific tier in RotE or raids, to qualify a specific toon for a specific Platoon or requirement for unlocking a better toon. 

    Supposedly this is to incentivize higher relics, but those are already incentivized. 

    What this will actually do is kill creativity by making this a game of brute force in which the details of a kit don't matter in anything like the same way the relic tiers matter. 

    The idea that you can smart your way through will be obsolete. 

    What they're actually doing is removing player brains from the equation. 

    This is, quite literally, the worst SWGOH-related idea CG has ever had. And yes, I'm including the Dodge meta. 

     

  • OutOfIdeas654's avatar
    OutOfIdeas654
    Seasoned Newcomer
    6 months ago

    Exactly. All they're doing is punishing strategy, which made the game fun. Now, all of a sudden they want to "protect the investment of r9" and push away a huge chunk of their playerbase all because, what, they weren't making enough money?? It's absolutely ridiculous

  • I have an entire guild, actively have 50 playing every single day and over 3/4 of us spend at least 20 a month in the game. And right now, I have my entire guild, officers and all, ready to quit the game over this change. 
    relics already increase a toon’s overall power and increases it every additional relic. Adding additional scaling is a stupid idea from the floor to the ceiling. Adding a new relic level? Great, but as it is they might as well toss mods out of the window and all interesting counter mechanics are going to be useless compared to “bigger number wins”

  • Cpt_SC's avatar
    Cpt_SC
    Seasoned Novice
    6 months ago

    I'm with OP.

    Hoping CG will step on their pride and backtrack.

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