There just isn't any fun in this game anymore....

I mean, you described the way the game has been since it started.....

The big difference was at least there was fresh, abundant, playable content for the first 2.5 years....

Honestly my biggest problem is relics. I really hate relics.

I feel bad for this generation of gamers. It's sad that gaming has come to this. You don't deserve this. It's going to take a company with true creativity and vision to break the shackles. They've all lost sight of what's important. We need a Richard Garriott of mobile games to emerge.

All I can say is vote with your time and money. It's the only metrics that matter anymore.

"HokieFiend;c-2160562" wrote:
I feel bad for this generation of gamers. It's sad that gaming has come to this. You don't deserve this. It's going to take a company with true creativity and vision to break the shackles. They've all lost sight of what's important. We need a Richard Garriott of mobile games to emerge.

All I can say is vote with your time and money. It's the only metrics that matter anymore.

No, it is going to require legislation which is too dangerous in application in terms of potential overreach.

This has been swgoh's worst year for as long as i have been playing.
GLs were terrible for the game.
Relics were terrible for the game. Lrn2balance.
Content not designed for the game, funnily enough, is terrible for the game.

"Lysandrax;c-2160574" wrote:

"HokieFiend;c-2160562" wrote:
I feel bad for this generation of gamers. It's sad that gaming has come to this. You don't deserve this. It's going to take a company with true creativity and vision to break the shackles. They've all lost sight of what's important. We need a Richard Garriott of mobile games to emerge.

All I can say is vote with your time and money. It's the only metrics that matter anymore.

Relics were terrible for the game.

Hard disagree on this one. They easily did more for balancing than anything else before.

"Kyno;c-2160643" wrote:

I'm not saying change shouldnt happen, but what caliber of games could you play for free back in the day, without pirating it?

Until the last 20 years, games were simply buy and play, and that's it. You paid $50.00 one time and had access to all of the content. And, the games back then were complete and, in general, less buggy.

Then the MMO came. You spent $50.00 to purchase the game, and then anywhere from $10-15 as a monthly fee. Other MMO's had a free subscription and you could get 95% of the content for nothing.

Now, we are at freemium games. Sure, you can play for free, but every company knows that there are a lot of 1) really competitive gamers that have to be the best at what they do, and/or 2) people that are OCD about collecting everything and not willing to wait for the trickle down. These companies bank on this and that's how they make their money. It's ingenious, bordering on exploitation. But it works. It worked on me on this game for 2-1/2 years, and now it works on me in another game. Fortunately, I can afford to pay to play. But there are many out there that can't and they can't control their spending either. That's not the fault of the makers of the games, but just like people addicted to MMO's back in the early 2000's, the next generation is going into massive debt due to the reasons stated above.

And while I've been out of this game for almost 2 years now, I have some friends that still play. They can't not play because of the time and money invested. That's why it took me 6 months to actually quit. I was really done with the game when the Revans came out. I knew then that any semblance of creating balance in this game was done, and was never going to improve. The company would just keep releasing ridiculously overpowered toons to counter the one released prior to it. The game I'm playing now is better, but the power creep is starting to set in, and I hope I will be able to stop playing when I realize the game has "jumped the shark."

There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's also no such thing as a free game. Every F2P person I know has at least spent $$ on something at least once, even if they consider themselves F2P.

"Kyno;c-2160711" wrote:

"Jakdnels;c-2160709" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160706" wrote:

"Jakdnels;c-2160701" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160688" wrote:

"Ryzak620;c-2160681" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160643" wrote:

I'm not saying change shouldnt happen, but what caliber of games could you play for free back in the day, without pirating it?

Until the last 20 years, games were simply buy and play, and that's it. You paid $50.00 one time and had access to all of the content. And, the games back then were complete and, in general, less buggy.

Then the MMO came. You spent $50.00 to purchase the game, and then anywhere from $10-15 as a monthly fee. Other MMO's had a free subscription and you could get 95% of the content for nothing.

Now, we are at freemium games. Sure, you can play for free, but every company knows that there are a lot of 1) really competitive gamers that have to be the best at what they do, and/or 2) people that are OCD about collecting everything and not willing to wait for the trickle down. These companies bank on this and that's how they make their money. It's ingenious, bordering on exploitation. But it works. It worked on me on this game for 2-1/2 years, and now it works on me in another game. Fortunately, I can afford to pay to play. But there are many out there that can't and they can't control their spending either. That's not the fault of the makers of the games, but just like people addicted to MMO's back in the early 2000's, the next generation is going into massive debt due to the reasons stated above.

And while I've been out of this game for almost 2 years now, I have some friends that still play. They can't not play because of the time and money invested. That's why it took me 6 months to actually quit. I was really done with the game when the Revans came out. I knew then that any semblance of creating balance in this game was done, and was never going to improve. The company would just keep releasing ridiculously overpowered toons to counter the one released prior to it. The game I'm playing now is better, but the power creep is starting to set in, and I hope I will be able to stop playing when I realize the game has "jumped the shark."

There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's also no such thing as a free game. Every F2P person I know has at least spent $$ on something at least once, even if they consider themselves F2P.

Then that's no f2p, and yes people do play this game absolutely 100% free.

So other than a slight reference to "other MMOs" you didnt event answer my question (or you kind of did), what caliber of games could you play for free before that you didnt pirate???

The answer is shocking, but here it goes, not so great ones. Sure they existed but they didnt have great graphics, or even a solid storyline, definitely no real IP attached to them. You have always had to pay to get a decent game.

Can I ask, do you feel the same way about other luxuries as you do about companies that use the freemium model? They offer things at a much higher price than they need to be, because people are willing to pay to have it, even when it's not any better or more functional than a counterpart. Those are also at fault for people going into debt they cant handle.

I agree regulations should be used to protect people from the bad choices they will make, but that just pushes them to make bad choices elsewhere, it doesnt actually solve the problem.

So you're saying if CG doesn't take advantage of their weakness someone else probably will?

Nope, I'm saying that people that make bad choices tend to make bad choices........ that goes for strong and weak people all over the world from all backgrounds of life. Trying to make a "aaww this poor person" argument as the general statement does work either, believe it or not, there are people who spend a lot of money on games and other things because they have the disposable income and it is no way a detriment to their life. Not knowing someone's lifestyle and not understanding that, doesnt not equate to them " taking advantage of a weakness"

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the one's you say continually make bad choices and need regulations to protect them.

And as I said, most likely people that make bad choices, will continue to do so. Regulations dont fix that, as I said.

Regulations certainly will help. Every single thing in these games that relies on RNG should be published and known to the player and these games should be subject to intense audit. That won't stop them from trying to skirt rules and "fool" the system but it will at least make it more of a pain.

There are seminars that I would wager every single major developer has attended that are centered around exploiting addiction in mobile gaming. It's irresponsible, unethical and some would consider it far worse than that. Once the sights are set it will likely become problematic for many companies.

"Kyno;c-2160643" wrote:

"HokieFiend;c-2160562" wrote:
I feel bad for this generation of gamers. It's sad that gaming has come to this. You don't deserve this. It's going to take a company with true creativity and vision to break the shackles. They've all lost sight of what's important. We need a Richard Garriott of mobile games to emerge.

All I can say is vote with your time and money. It's the only metrics that matter anymore.

I'm not saying change shouldnt happen, but what caliber of games could you play for free back in the day, without pirating it?

Also, it is more than likely that the people who are spending money on this game are from the older generation of gamers, not the newer one.

Even the 100% f2p model is still a fraction of the game (for a time), which technically has value since their cost is $0.

My issue is if you look at the new content as a game in the game, it still costs over $1,000 to enjoy in a reasonable amount of time. And that is just a character, not even content. A full blown A level console game costs < $100.

And if you aren't going to spend, it's going to take 3 to 4 months to obtain if you are competitive in the arenas, which is getting harder and harder to maintain any competitive edge without spending. But if you are going to spend, the cost is astronomical.

My other issues are a lack of replayable content for the amount of money this game makes and the genuine lack of creativity. The re-skin of prior game modes is unbelievable.

For a billion dollar game, I just would like to see a player base that holds CG more accountable. The sad part is the addiction and sunk cost fallacy will prevent that from happening.

"LukeDukem8;c-2160811" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160643" wrote:

"HokieFiend;c-2160562" wrote:
I feel bad for this generation of gamers. It's sad that gaming has come to this. You don't deserve this. It's going to take a company with true creativity and vision to break the shackles. They've all lost sight of what's important. We need a Richard Garriott of mobile games to emerge.

All I can say is vote with your time and money. It's the only metrics that matter anymore.

I'm not saying change shouldnt happen, but what caliber of games could you play for free back in the day, without pirating it?

Also, it is more than likely that the people who are spending money on this game are from the older generation of gamers, not the newer one.

Even the 100% f2p model is still a fraction of the game (for a time), which technically has value since their cost is $0.

My issue is if you look at the new content as a game in the game, it still costs over $1,000 to enjoy in a reasonable amount of time. And that is just a character, not even content. A full blown A level console game costs < $100.

And if you aren't going to spend, it's going to take 3 to 4 months to obtain if you are competitive in the arenas, which is getting harder and harder to maintain any competitive edge without spending. But if you are going to spend, the cost is astronomical.

My other issues are a lack of replayable content for the amount of money this game makes and the genuine lack of creativity. The re-skin of prior game modes is unbelievable.

For a billion dollar game, I just would like to see a player base that holds CG more accountable. The sad part is the addiction and sunk cost fallacy will prevent that from happening.

Yes but that $1000 and "reasonable timeframe" is all subjective, and is really just not true from a general standpoint.

And again, competitive in arena..... how many players are there right now? How many play to be there?

When you look at an older shard that still has hundreds of players in it, do you really think the player at 150 is really trying to be more competitive than they already are, maybe a few sure, but many of them are happily playing 3-4 months or longer behind the meta and enjoying the game.

Yes everything is a reskin, sure.

Not sure how those relate to holding them accountable, and again, holding them accountable for your view of the game? A player spending money may just see value in what they are doing and can be happy without seeing it from your view, and may not feel a need to "hold them accountable " for the same things you do.

------
Everyone plays differently, and has different views on what's fun and what kind of investment we make into the fun things we have in our life. We see players try to make arguments about "whales ruin it for us by spending", and that is just not the case.

"HokieFiend;c-2160771" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160711" wrote:

"Jakdnels;c-2160709" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160706" wrote:

"Jakdnels;c-2160701" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160688" wrote:

"Ryzak620;c-2160681" wrote:

"Kyno;c-2160643" wrote:

I'm not saying change shouldnt happen, but what caliber of games could you play for free back in the day, without pirating it?

Until the last 20 years, games were simply buy and play, and that's it. You paid $50.00 one time and had access to all of the content. And, the games back then were complete and, in general, less buggy.

Then the MMO came. You spent $50.00 to purchase the game, and then anywhere from $10-15 as a monthly fee. Other MMO's had a free subscription and you could get 95% of the content for nothing.

Now, we are at freemium games. Sure, you can play for free, but every company knows that there are a lot of 1) really competitive gamers that have to be the best at what they do, and/or 2) people that are OCD about collecting everything and not willing to wait for the trickle down. These companies bank on this and that's how they make their money. It's ingenious, bordering on exploitation. But it works. It worked on me on this game for 2-1/2 years, and now it works on me in another game. Fortunately, I can afford to pay to play. But there are many out there that can't and they can't control their spending either. That's not the fault of the makers of the games, but just like people addicted to MMO's back in the early 2000's, the next generation is going into massive debt due to the reasons stated above.

And while I've been out of this game for almost 2 years now, I have some friends that still play. They can't not play because of the time and money invested. That's why it took me 6 months to actually quit. I was really done with the game when the Revans came out. I knew then that any semblance of creating balance in this game was done, and was never going to improve. The company would just keep releasing ridiculously overpowered toons to counter the one released prior to it. The game I'm playing now is better, but the power creep is starting to set in, and I hope I will be able to stop playing when I realize the game has "jumped the shark."

There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's also no such thing as a free game. Every F2P person I know has at least spent $$ on something at least once, even if they consider themselves F2P.

Then that's no f2p, and yes people do play this game absolutely 100% free.

So other than a slight reference to "other MMOs" you didnt event answer my question (or you kind of did), what caliber of games could you play for free before that you didnt pirate???

The answer is shocking, but here it goes, not so great ones. Sure they existed but they didnt have great graphics, or even a solid storyline, definitely no real IP attached to them. You have always had to pay to get a decent game.

Can I ask, do you feel the same way about other luxuries as you do about companies that use the freemium model? They offer things at a much higher price than they need to be, because people are willing to pay to have it, even when it's not any better or more functional than a counterpart. Those are also at fault for people going into debt they cant handle.

I agree regulations should be used to protect people from the bad choices they will make, but that just pushes them to make bad choices elsewhere, it doesnt actually solve the problem.

So you're saying if CG doesn't take advantage of their weakness someone else probably will?

Nope, I'm saying that people that make bad choices tend to make bad choices........ that goes for strong and weak people all over the world from all backgrounds of life. Trying to make a "aaww this poor person" argument as the general statement does work either, believe it or not, there are people who spend a lot of money on games and other things because they have the disposable income and it is no way a detriment to their life. Not knowing someone's lifestyle and not understanding that, doesnt not equate to them " taking advantage of a weakness"

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the one's you say continually make bad choices and need regulations to protect them.

And as I said, most likely people that make bad choices, will continue to do so. Regulations dont fix that, as I said.

Regulations certainly will help. Every single thing in these games that relies on RNG should be published and known to the player and these games should be subject to intense audit. That won't stop them from trying to skirt rules and "fool" the system but it will at least make it more of a pain.

There are seminars that I would wager every single major developer has attended that are centered around exploiting addiction in mobile gaming. It's irresponsible, unethical and some would consider it far worse than that. Once the sights are set it will likely become problematic for many companies.

I'm all for regulation of these types of games. I tend to see the gaming industry starting to enter a situation similar to restaurants, bars, and bowling alleys prior to no-smoking laws began to be popular.

The big arguments against smoking regulation were:
1. people should be able to do what they want, wherever they want to do it.
2. Its a free market. Bars, Restaurants, and Bowling alleys are free to make themselves non-smoking.

So #1 I agreed with to an extent. If you want to smoke, go for it. Just don't do it around me. (though technically even if people aren't doing it in public they still impact others by smoking as it raises health care costs for everyone - then again so does being fat, eating at mcdonalds, etc etc.)

#2 is problematic. While it was true that bars/restaurants/bowling alleys were free to open non-smoking establishments, in practice, very few did it. This means that the majority of the people in the country (who did not smoke) were being held hostage by a minority of people because ownership of those establishments erroneously thought they would lose money if they went no smoking. Had the free market worked correctly, a proper proportion of non-smoking entertainment establishments would have opened. It did not. Thus regulation was needed.

Gaming is going down this path. Game Developers are the bars, restaurants and bowling alleys. They have been abandoning traditional pay once/subscription models in favor of the freemium (smoking). Whales are the smokers.