Will The Separatist Rework Be Meta Defying?

"Roksteady;c-1768092" wrote:
I could see the B1 having something similar to what we saw with the IT toons in the most recent TW. B1 will have a counter above its head and will be replaced X amount of times during the battle.

GG gets a new zeta tacked on to his Sinister Laugh that allows him to rez any dead droid. If no droids are dead when he uses it then B1's counter goes up 1.

I wasn't too far off on my guess with B1. As for GG, I hope to see 2 zetas out of him. One that allows him to rez droids as detailed above and another that makes target lock unable to be removed if he is alive. Give Droideka a target lock ability and the droid faction will find itself with a ton of synergy.

As a side note, My B2 is a 6* and G10 so it's still a work in progress. I threw him on a JTR L, R2, BB8, C3PO team just to see what would happen. I beat a decent (G11 & G12 mix) Revan team with them. That AOE appears to be quite good against Revan already. Imagine being able to follow it up with some target locks that can't be removed.

"7AnimalMother;c-1771520" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771464" wrote:

"VonZant;c-1771375" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771362" wrote:

"Ephran;c-1770697" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1770571" wrote:

"Revan_Presence;c-1768210" wrote:

General Grievous, a cyborg that got pretty much soloed by a single jedi in canon... As a counter for a best jedi there is?

Not by just any Jedi but by Obi-Wan, the Jedi Master who bested the chosen one. Besides, the prequels don't do Grievous justice. He was a veritable Jedi killing machine in the 2003 Clone Wars series and also seemed pretty capable in the 3D-animated show from 2008.

In both shows Dooku says that Grievous is no match for a Jedi head to head and that he needs to use fear and intimidation tactics to even the match. In 2003 we only saw his fights after thoroughly intimidating his opponents, in the movies and the '08 show we see a lot of times when he's up against Kenobi, who doesn't afraid of anything.

He uses intimidation in much the same way his Sith masters do. But we also saw him take on five Jedi at once, at least two of whom were battle-hardened masters (Aayla and Ki-Adi-Mundi), and kill or incapacitate all but one of them. Sure, they were a bit shook up after watching a sixth Jedi die by Grievous... feet actually, not hand, but he nonetheless demonstrated a considerable amount of skill in this encounter.

@Darth_DeVito what is this scene from? Ive watched clone wars more than once. Never seen the cartoon version though. Can you point me in right direction?

Here is the IMDb link: https://imdb.com/title/tt0361243/?ref_=ttep_ep_tt I think it was the last episode of season 2.

Just as an FYI - the first clone wars series (2003-2005) in your link had its canonicty superseded by the second clone wars series (2008-2014). Many of the character portrayals and events were inconsistent between the two. One of the biggest differences is that the first series really pumped everything up (jedi and GG in particular) to the nth degree of power. The canon series is much less fantastical in that aspect.

Does canon really matter with regard to this game though? There are many characters who aren't exactly canon. Most of the Old Republic characters from video games and EU novels have yet to be canonized by a Lucasfilm movie or TV show. Even Thrawn wasn't canon after the prequels until he made an appearance in SW Rebels.

I don't see why CG shouldn't base their GG rework on the first Clone Wars show, or simply make it up as they go along. After all, this is a game where Mace Windu is a sad joke while C-3PO is a force to be reckoned with. And it's all easily excused by pointing out that these are just holotable simulations.

"7AnimalMother;c-1771605" wrote:

"evoluza;c-1771545" wrote:

"7AnimalMother;c-1771520" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771464" wrote:

"VonZant;c-1771375" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771362" wrote:

"Ephran;c-1770697" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1770571" wrote:

"Revan_Presence;c-1768210" wrote:

General Grievous, a cyborg that got pretty much soloed by a single jedi in canon... As a counter for a best jedi there is?

Not by just any Jedi but by Obi-Wan, the Jedi Master who bested the chosen one. Besides, the prequels don't do Grievous justice. He was a veritable Jedi killing machine in the 2003 Clone Wars series and also seemed pretty capable in the 3D-animated show from 2008.

In both shows Dooku says that Grievous is no match for a Jedi head to head and that he needs to use fear and intimidation tactics to even the match. In 2003 we only saw his fights after thoroughly intimidating his opponents, in the movies and the '08 show we see a lot of times when he's up against Kenobi, who doesn't afraid of anything.

He uses intimidation in much the same way his Sith masters do. But we also saw him take on five Jedi at once, at least two of whom were battle-hardened masters (Aayla and Ki-Adi-Mundi), and kill or incapacitate all but one of them. Sure, they were a bit shook up after watching a sixth Jedi die by Grievous... feet actually, not hand, but he nonetheless demonstrated a considerable amount of skill in this encounter.

@Darth_DeVito what is this scene from? Ive watched clone wars more than once. Never seen the cartoon version though. Can you point me in right direction?

Here is the IMDb link: https://imdb.com/title/tt0361243/?ref_=ttep_ep_tt I think it was the last episode of season 2.

Just as an FYI - the first clone wars series (2003-2005) in your link had its canonicty superseded by the second clone wars series (2008-2014). Many of the character portrayals and events were inconsistent between the two. One of the biggest differences is that the first series really pumped everything up (jedi and GG in particular) to the nth degree of power. The canon series is much less fantastical in that aspect.

Because they didn't get there visual right, doesn't change the fact that Grievous was a Jedi slayer. Jedi and even the sith feared him, because of his potential.
Kenobi was send to beat him, because of his defensiv fighting style.

It's not just the visual that is a difference between the first series and the second. In the first, GG had a beastly power level based on the feats he accomplished. Certainly he would have been feared by Jedi and sith.

In the second (now cannon) series, he was significantly toned down. Maybe he wasn't quite comic relief, but it certainly seemed like he spent more time running away from Jedi, than slaying them.... Watching the second series, I never got a "fearsome" vibe.

He was reduced to more of a padawan killer, but even that is impressive for a non-force sensitive person. In the episode Lair of Grievous, where he kills Kit Fisto's padawan, he has an entire trophy table full of padawan braids. With enough droids by his side (the same droids who wiped out the Nightsisters under his lead), I don't see why he shouldn't be a force to be reckoned with.

Nearly since this game begin its been Sith 6 months out of every year this game has been out.

Quite frankly. Sith are getting boring. Zaul Meta. Palpatine Meta, and Traya Meta. Let’s try something different!

"Darth_DeVito;c-1772072" wrote:

"7AnimalMother;c-1771520" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771464" wrote:

"VonZant;c-1771375" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1771362" wrote:

"Ephran;c-1770697" wrote:

"Darth_DeVito;c-1770571" wrote:

"Revan_Presence;c-1768210" wrote:

General Grievous, a cyborg that got pretty much soloed by a single jedi in canon... As a counter for a best jedi there is?

Not by just any Jedi but by Obi-Wan, the Jedi Master who bested the chosen one. Besides, the prequels don't do Grievous justice. He was a veritable Jedi killing machine in the 2003 Clone Wars series and also seemed pretty capable in the 3D-animated show from 2008.

In both shows Dooku says that Grievous is no match for a Jedi head to head and that he needs to use fear and intimidation tactics to even the match. In 2003 we only saw his fights after thoroughly intimidating his opponents, in the movies and the '08 show we see a lot of times when he's up against Kenobi, who doesn't afraid of anything.

He uses intimidation in much the same way his Sith masters do. But we also saw him take on five Jedi at once, at least two of whom were battle-hardened masters (Aayla and Ki-Adi-Mundi), and kill or incapacitate all but one of them. Sure, they were a bit shook up after watching a sixth Jedi die by Grievous... feet actually, not hand, but he nonetheless demonstrated a considerable amount of skill in this encounter.

@Darth_DeVito what is this scene from? Ive watched clone wars more than once. Never seen the cartoon version though. Can you point me in right direction?

Here is the IMDb link: https://imdb.com/title/tt0361243/?ref_=ttep_ep_tt I think it was the last episode of season 2.

Just as an FYI - the first clone wars series (2003-2005) in your link had its canonicty superseded by the second clone wars series (2008-2014). Many of the character portrayals and events were inconsistent between the two. One of the biggest differences is that the first series really pumped everything up (jedi and GG in particular) to the nth degree of power. The canon series is much less fantastical in that aspect.

Does canon really matter with regard to this game though? There are many characters who aren't exactly canon. Most of the Old Republic characters from video games and EU novels have yet to be canonized by a Lucasfilm movie or TV show. Even Thrawn wasn't canon after the prequels until he made an appearance in SW Rebels.

I don't see why CG shouldn't base their GG rework on the first Clone Wars show, or simply make it up as they go along. After all, this is a game where Mace Windu is a sad joke while C-3PO is a force to be reckoned with. And it's all easily excused by pointing out that these are just holotable simulations.

I like that the game as pulled in some legend material such as the OR. That said, IMHO, canon should matter when you have multiple version of source material to pull from. In that case, the game should have their representation of the character stick closer to the canon version.

"Monel;c-1767160" wrote:
I think the term meta is fading away. Almost all teams already have a counter. But we shall see.

I hope that's true, but I'm not seeing it on my shard. In the top 20, about 15 of them are Revan leads. I bounce around in the 100-200 range in the arena, and I only face 4 different teams: Revan leads, Bastilla leads, Palps, and Nightsisters. There are minor variations within those four leads, but they're all pretty much the same.

I really hope they don't sell a Revan counter so easily with a couple marquees and a couple reworks. Revan required five marquees and months of farming, it would be a shame to see him being rendered useless by characters that have been in the game for so long.

"TheLeglessKid;c-1776686" wrote:

"Georgemi6;c-1769890" wrote:

"Revan_Presence;c-1768825" wrote:

"Georgemi6;c-1768279" wrote:
First of all, Grievous wasn’t a pushover in terms of killing Jedi, and revan wasn’t the best Jedi there was. (That would be yoda, or in legends, GM Luke). Grievous was regarded as the greatest Jedi killer of all time behind Vader. (and grievous isn’t even force sensitive)

GG was killing Jedi who forgot how to fight after centuries of peace. As of the Old Rpublic era, there were Great Hyperspace War, Great Sith War, Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War. Learn canon and try judging by the enemies, at least. GG was killed by a single jedi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, who almost got smashed by Jango Fett, the single mandalorian. Revan led a war against whole army of Mando'ade and single-handedly defeated their War Leader, Mand'alor the Ultimate. As of Yoda and Luke, they both got defeated by Emperor Palpatine. And Palpatine is nothing if compared to Emperor Vitiate, the one who never needed no fleet, no tool like Death Star, and no army but himself to wipe out every living thing on entire planet.

"Georgemi6;c-1768279" wrote:
Secondly, the Jedi have had their time in the sun, being pretty much unchallenged in every part of the game since revan dropped. Separatists have never had any glory (except B2, and the bugs in fleet) and if they are a counter to Jedi, that doesn’t mean they’ll counter sith, rebels, NS, resistance, BH, and whatever other meta or semi meta teams are out there.

You are so wrong. The sith ruled over the arena for centuries, which isn't really canon-wise. In canon, no sith reign lasted long after being caught in Jedi iron sights.

"Georgemi6;c-1768279" wrote:
In short, the GG and the seps are worthy of being a counter to Jedi, and although they might be a foil to the dominance of revan in arena, that doesn’t mean they’ll eclipse everyone.

GG should be reworked in order to be competetive against jedi teams. But not to the point where he'll be able to stomp Revan or Bastila lead. That would be such a nonsense. Bastila's battle meditation were strongest in the entire Star Wars history, and Revan was the greatest jedi War Leader. Absolutely no droid should be able to top it.

Ugh.... we’re really doing this? Alright here goes nothing...

1st paragraph: Since you speak of the conquests or revan as fact, I will assume you are using legends continuity. Your argument about GG losing to Kenobi is moot, because mace windu himself stated that kenobi was the only Jedi that could defeat grievous, not because obiwan was better at attacking, but because he was the physical embodiment of the defensive form of lightsaber combat, form 3 soresu. Grievous was attacking 20 times a second against obi wan, but his defense was so utterly impenetrable that Grievous couldn’t touch him.

And I don’t know why you are talking about jango and mand’alor the ultimate in your comparison, because for all we know, jango could’ve been the better fighter of the 2 (he himself was mand’alor at the time, and also killed 6 Jedi with his bare hands in front of count dooku). And in his fight with kenobi, they were evenly matched, and only really won because boba helped him out in the slave 1 a bunch (and even still all he did was make obi wan fall off a building, which he easily survived). And if we’re really gonna get specific, this is Obi wan in attack of the clones, and the one that fought grievous had 3 more years of experience.

As for Luke and yoda, they are more powerful than revan. If you noticed I said GM Luke, meaning grand master Luke, aka the person George Lucas himself said was the most powerful Jedi of all time. And about Luke losing to Palpatine, Luke had just become a Jedi, and also didn’t want to fight any more after he threw his lightsaber after defeating Vader.

And the worst mistake in your argument is comparing Palpatine to vitiate. Yoda lost to Palpatine, yes, but that was only because Palpatine was the strongest sith the galaxy had ever known. In the novelisation of ROTS, yoda thinks during the fight with Palpatine something like “I am the Jedi orders greatest warrior, but my light is nothing to the darkness that this sith represents.” Sidious would destroy vitiate. Vitiate was skilled yes, but his highest power came from sith magic and other tricks. Sidious was not only the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy (depending on whether you believe he threw the fight with windu or not) but his force powers were also only second to anakin’s. They go over this a bit more in the plagueis novel.

Paragraph 2: I can’t tell if you understood my argument. I meant the Jedi in the arena, not in cannon. Plus, Grievous isn’t force sensitive as I’m sure you know, which means he isn’t a sith. He was made to do one thing, kill Jedi (and he’s also pretty good at killing night sisters too) so if there’s something he should be able to do in arena, it should be that.

Paragraph 3: I see you agree that grievous should be reworked to be competative against competative jedi teams. I’m glad we can find some common ground. But you said he shouldn’t be able to “stomp revan or bastilla lead.” What other competative Jedi leaders are there? GMY? GK? Qui gon? Yoda isn’t nearly as effective as Bastilla or revan, and was obsolete as a leader after bastilla dropped right after his rework. GK lead died when JTR was introduced. QGJ hasn’t been used since early 2017.

And you say bastilla’s battle meditation would be effective against grievous in a straight fight. “In order to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you mast have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side.” -count dooku. Grievous didn’t give the Jedi time to think when he fought them, much less time to run back to a Star ship to hide and meditate.

Revan is not the best Jedi. I will concede that he may have been the best “war leader,” however a 5v5 battle hardly translates to a war. These kinds of battles are grievous’s bread and butter, especially if the enemy have never fought against or even heard of him before.

In fact, I don’t even know why we’re having this debate. This game has never been accurate to Star Wars cannon. I guess what it comes down to is passion. You revan fanboys are so obsessed with an old video game character that you refuse to accept it when simple things like balancing and reworks happen and taint the image of your dear revan senpai, or your waifu bastilla (or you do dumb things like call grievous a droid). I guarantee that if sith revan or malak was released as a counter, you wouldn’t even protest.

If grievous can beat revan in arena, it’ll just be better for the health of the game. People will be happy, Order will be restored, and the most requested rework in the entire game will be fulfilled.

I love everything you said there, however I believe Windu actually bested Sidious for one reason only. Vapaad. Windu didn't best Sidious because he was "Stronger", he used Sidious own power against him. However I think Sidious purposely directed his own lighting back at himself to sway Anakin from taking Maces side. (How many times did Anakin/Kenobi block Dookus lighting and Dooku didn't have it redirceted)

Well, to use your own words, the lightning was redirected because Mace was using his strength against him, and husband lightning is a strength. Palps likely realized this before he used lightning because he knew it would sway Anakin.

He'll be a very tactful soft counter. Not just plug and play. Like night sisters sniping top 10.

Hopefully!!! I’m tired of this Revan Meta?