Team Droids on Roids...the new Meta?

"Tannjam;c-1423403" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1423326" wrote:

"Tannjam;c-1423253" wrote:
Until someone on the same account tries both against the same opponent, this argument is going to continue to be circular. The original point was that Chopper's kit should reduce the CD of Illuminated Destiny faster. I stand by that. The basis of your argument for K2-SO is on counter attacks, but with nearly everyone in the top 20 running R2-D2, team stealth is going to largely negate those counter-attack cooldown reductions. In your experience K2-SO may be a very worthy tank - I don't think anyone is arguing that. But given equal conditions, Chopper should allow for a quicker ID. Probably within margin of error anyway depending on RNG.

No, the original point was that k2 is better than chopper for the team. I was challenged on that on the basis that chopper reaches id faster.

I asserted that is not true, and pointed out all the ways that K2 protects the team better.

I mean, let's be honest here. If you have JTR and can't get to the top, chances are your problem isn't composition, so offense with both is largely irrelevant.

To truly resolve the argument, someone would have to play against someone who took turns having g12 versions of both up.

But your assertion was baseless, given that you haven't tested Chopper adequately. I feel like you're just arguing to argue now, given that you conclude with the exact point I started my last post with.

You like K2-SO. Chopper users (I'm one) like chopper. Let's leave it at that.

See that's just it. MY statements weren't baseless. I've fought against RJT squads with chopper and have gotten feedback on RJT with k2.

My statements have always been coming from a defensive standpoint... Which makes whether or not I've played with him irrelevant

"Trollsbane;c-1423475" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1422703" wrote:

trollsbane wrote:


Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to link both our profiles so others can decide who's advice they want to trust.

https://swgoh.gg/u/trollsbane/

https://swgoh.gg/u/woodroward/

So you're on an old inactive shard. In what way does that make you right?

Your shard is inactive for certain because you only have 3 people in your rotation and are still in your rank 10 minutes after your payout.

To me that says your server is less competitive than mine by far. There's 6 in my payout 6 before, 3 after. People get knocked from their ranks as soon as their payout is over on my server.

I don't know why you have to turn this into a lame contest between us rather than just admit that your math was flawed and that you haven't ran k2 in arena with jtr so have literally nothing to base your opinion on.

You thought I was just some lame theorycrafter instead of an experienced player, but have to much pride to back out and see this as a battle.



You literally lost all credibility in this argument as soon as you resorted to smack talking.

Since you think you can judge me by my swgoh.gg profile, the only part you need look at is whether I've been running k2 with JTR and whether I make the top 10. How's it feel to have someone try to use your GG profile that backs up everything you've said in an attempt to discredit you?

Feels underhanded, doesn't it?

Just admit you don't know what you're talking about with k2 under Rey and move on.

Give it up man! What do you want? Do you want me to lie to you and say that K2SO is the absolute best tank in the game for all purposes at all times? Do you realize that your "math" is you just making a ton of assumptions about chopper even though you clearly have NEVER used him? Do you also realize that this thread is about a RJT squad using Imperial Probe Droid? Your "awesome" squad is just the cookie cutter RJT, R2, BB8, CLS, GK squad that every player tried when they unlocked RJT except you don't even have GK unlocked. Why don't you try other characters instead of trying to convince those of us that have experimented that you are right and I am wrong. Everything that you say is fact is actually you just talking about things you have never tried.

I used K2SO back when he was relevant. Did you use Chopper? I used him also. Oh, you watched some videos? Did you happen to watch the videos in this very thread that show chopper doing an excellent job of being a tank? You should watch them again since that's where you get all of your knowledge.

You don't like my K2SO mods? It's because I have him benched you noob. You think my arena shard is less competitive than yours because I'm at rank 3? How do you even come up with that noise? Maybe if you weren't running K2SO you wouldn't drop rank instantly. For someone who has spent very little time testing characters and how they interact in different squads you sure do think you know everything.

Also, your defense mods made me chuckle....

I watched many videos and saw chopper squads proccing id no faster than I did (I counted turns)

I never said my squad was awesome. I said k2 was awesome with JTR. With ipd's aoe buff wipe, he'd be even better.

You have k2 benched, which is exactly why you're not qualified to have been making the statements you have about him on offense, even though the whole point of this conversation is what's best for the team... Which means better on defense not offense.

Whether or not I've run chopper is irrelevant to the actual point of this discussion on top of the fact that the videos give me all the info I need on his effectiveness on offense.

If you actually read my post you would see that my comments about your rank weren't serious and only intended to show you how pointless your comments about mine were.

I don't want you to acknowledge k2 as anything other than outside your realm of experience when it comes to JTR.

Chuckle at my defense mods all you want, repeated testing with all sorts of different setups has shown them to make him extremely effective. If you'd done the same, you might not have ended up benching him

Now please quit arguing about something you know nothing about and admit your ignorance.

"Tannjam;c-1423657" wrote:
I just re-read the thread. Your first post claims that K2-SO is a better fit for the squad. OP says he likes Chopper better (and lists the reasons why). Your first claim was based solely on your use of K2-SO, (not, by the way, with the comp the OP suggested) and your lack of experience using (not facing) a similarly geared chopper. And then you spent the rest of the thread putting your fingers in your ears, singing "LA LA LA K2 K2 K2 is better". What you've faced on defense is 100% irrelevant. Have you faced the squad the OP is posting? How do we know the Choppers you're facing aren't modded slowly/terribly, or rounded out with other characters with terrible synergy (CLS)?
I'm sure K2 works wonderfully for you. I'm sure you like him better than a toon you haven't adequately tested yourself. All of that is irrelevant.

I came in here in a cordial tone offering up a character that many instantly discounted that happens to have amazing synergy in the proposed comp. I've been planning on putting IPD in with k2 since I unlocked JTR so I had a similar idea and perspective in mind.

I never told the op they were wrong or attempted to discredit how good chopper is. I simply pointed out the virtues of K2.

Then I had close minded people come in and tell me I'm wrong based on no experience.

I corrected their ignorance while still not discrediting chopper. Then these people decided to try and discredit me personally because they decided to take affront at my sharing of knowledge.

Overall I have yet to discredit Chopper even once in this thread. At most I compared him to k2.

Again, if you're having problems getting top ranks with jtr bb and r2, team composition is almost certainly not your problem. It's gear and mods.

This means that the only really relevant part of the other 2 characters is how they hold on defense.

This means that the only reason they are better is if they help you hold ranks better. I've played against chopper and I use K2. The chopper I played against was on a guy who has much better characters and much faster mods than I in general.

I'm not the one who came into this thread telling anyone they were wrong.
I only corrected people when they tried to tell me I was wrong based on pure conjecture.

If it seems differently to you, then I would say you have a skewed sense of perception of what I've been saying and should reread the thread again.

Read your first reply again. I'll save you the time of scrolling back:

My 4th is K2S0, and I'd take him over chopper in any non-Phoenix team all day long. https://swgoh.gg/u/woodroward/collection/218/k-2so/

To put it another way: that team would be better with K2S0 than it is with Chopper.

If you think that's cordial, we have different definitions. That's you offering your opinion with a sledgehammer. There's really nothing more to say. You love K2-SO and think we all should too. We get it.

{Start troll}
Kylo had the sith tag and Woody is a whale.
{End troll}

"Woodroward;c-1424167" wrote:
I win.

On an internet discussion board. Well done, quite an achievement :smiley:

So sad - came back to thread hoping to see real info and it's an interwebz keyboard battle!!!! Entertaining, but thought I'd learn something :)

"hilikus;c-1424836" wrote:
I haven’t read the whole thread but i think it still goes about chopper vs K2 in a JTR, Bb8, r2, GK +x squad on Defense.
I can say this: For me it’s x = scav Rey. I faced teams with x = chopper and the main problem is: chopper does get one turn, maybe. That’s it. Everything that is not resistance or gets TM through some mechanic (always thought about b2, but I don’t have him geared) or has an auto taunt is pretty much dead weight on defense against JTR. Comparable mods of course.
So if k2 Counter attacks, that would be nice but wouldn’t really matter, because everyone is stealthier. If he inflicts daze, that would be golden against a JTR team. But since he does that only on his special, I doubt his usefulness, although I haven’t faced that combination yet.

See that's just the thing. This thread isn't about JTR, BB8, r2, GK+ K2 or Chopper although that's what Woodroward wants to debate. This is about JTR, R2, BB8, Chopper, IPD. In this squad I feel like Chopper is a champ.

"Woodroward;c-1424872" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1424861" wrote:

"hilikus;c-1424836" wrote:
I haven’t read the whole thread but i think it still goes about chopper vs K2 in a JTR, Bb8, r2, GK +x squad on Defense.
I can say this: For me it’s x = scav Rey. I faced teams with x = chopper and the main problem is: chopper does get one turn, maybe. That’s it. Everything that is not resistance or gets TM through some mechanic (always thought about b2, but I don’t have him geared) or has an auto taunt is pretty much dead weight on defense against JTR. Comparable mods of course.
So if k2 Counter attacks, that would be nice but wouldn’t really matter, because everyone is stealthier. If he inflicts daze, that would be golden against a JTR team. But since he does that only on his special, I doubt his usefulness, although I haven’t faced that combination yet.

See that's just the thing. This thread isn't about JTR, BB8, r2, GK+ K2 or Chopper although that's what Woodroward wants to debate. This is about JTR, R2, BB8, Chopper, IPD. In this squad I feel like Chopper is a champ.

That's your (incorrect) interpretation of it. I know you're in love with chopper, but this thread was about JTR with droids and the new META. That was the initial claim. It asked for opinions. I gave detailed information on why K2 will improve how the team holds on defense over Chopper (contributing to the thread), and you came in here simply to say I was wrong without any experience to back up your claims. That's my problem with your posts. You aren't here to contribute, you're here to battle me.

Fine, let's go over it one more time although I doubt you will agree with anything I have to say. So far you have simply glazed over all my valid points and go straight to your bizarre claim I have no experience on the subject because my Chopper is gear 12 and K2SO only gear 11. Meanwhile your K2SO is gear 12 and Chopper only gear 9 yet you are the expert on all things tank.

1. The thread is about a 4 droid RTJ squad using IPD and Chopper. This squad is extremely fast and each droids turn feeds TM to other characters. Chopper adds chance of assist to droids when they use an ability. If he crits ID CD is reduced and an additional chance to reduce that droids CDs as well. This assist will also buff another droid. Woodroward skimmed over this as important because ID gives these buffs. What he doesn't see is these buffs are important to speed your droids in order to use ID sooner. Chopper also adds a dispel to the squad. What woodroward skipped over is this dispel removes 10% TM per buff removed to all enemies and gives him 25% protection back per buff removed. Chopper is VERY fast and will attack much more often than K2SO and removes TM from the entire enemy squad with his special. This gives your whole squad even more turns.
2. K2SO is slow but counterattacks. If the enemy uses R2 then enemies will be stealthed... no counters. K2SO will receive foresight from R2 when he uses his stealth. This foresight will evade an attack which... you guessed it... again no counterattack. At this point he has done nothing but stand there. He will then Daze someone. If he hasn't been dazed, stunned, fractured then he is still very slow and doesn't add much beyond offense down. Sure he's tough but Chopper regenerates 25% protection per buff dispelled and gains 25% evasion while taunting. Just as tough all things considered. You have loaded up on defense mods and are super slow? Chopper can just as easily load up on the exact same defense mods and still be faster than K2SO.

I'm sure this is where Woodroward in all his wisdom will declare I have zero experience. If only I had 3 more gear pieces on K2SO then I could also know everything there is to know about this game. One can only dream I suppose.

"CleverWes;c-1424986" wrote:

"CleverWes;c-1424981" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1424948" wrote:

1 / (1 * .3 * .6 * .25 )= 22.222222 So I guess it is really more like one out of every 22 or 23 attacks on average. I was rounding before.

Ahh, see there's where I'm differing. If Chopper is already assisting, I'm not counting his 30% chance to count again.

Also, there's only three droids who are subject to getting their cooldowns reduced. So for me I did 1/ (1 * .6 * .3333333). So for that, each time he Chopper does assist, there's actually a 20% chance to reduce the cooldown on ID.

Edit to fix mess

Where I went wrong is I assumed it was the same droid that received the buff got the cooldown.

So essentially I was totally wrong on my math like I originally thought lol.

"Woodroward;c-1425707" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425705" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425693" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425686" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425683" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425681" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425679" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425669" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425225" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425211" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425184" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425180" wrote:
Q

"Woodroward;c-1425093" wrote:

"Trollsbane;c-1425060" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1425012" wrote:

"CleverWes;c-1424991" wrote:

"CleverWes;c-1424986" wrote:

"CleverWes;c-1424981" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1424948" wrote:

1 / (1 * .3 * .6 * .25 )= 22.222222 So I guess it is really more like one out of every 22 or 23 attacks on average. I was rounding before.

Ahh, see there's where I'm differing. If Chopper is already assisting, I'm not counting his 30% chance to count again.

Also, there's only three droids who are subject to getting their cooldowns reduced. So for me I did 1/ (1 * .6 * .3333333). So for that, each time he Chopper does assist, there's actually a 20% chance to reduce the cooldown on ID.

Edit to fix mess

Where I went wrong is I assumed it was the same droid that received the buff got the cooldown.

So essentially I was totally wrong on my math like I originally thought lol.

This is all RNG based too, so you could have runs where Chopper assists every droid attack, and always targets BB8 with his special as well as reducing his CD, but that's an RNGesus moment. I find the average to be a more reliable way to interpret it myself.

Regardless, K2SO only reduces ID CDs when he crits which Chopper also does. This is the part where you decide that part doesn't matter. You also ignore the fact that even if Chopper reduces the CDs of a different droid this still greatly benefits your squad. You also ignore the fact that K2SO only has 1 special instead of 2 lile chopper. Sure, Choppers specials have longer CDs but once he has gone twice and used both specials IDs CDs is likely at 0.

Look man, until you actually use Chopper I never expect you to get it. I've used K2SO. You seem to think his mechanics are beyond me because my gear is only 11. That is the weakest and most absurd of all your claims. The worst part is you believe this logic only applies to others and not you and your ungeared chopper and well honestly... all but maybe 6 of your characters are undergeared. By your own logic you know how to use a total of what... 6 characters?

What's absurd is that you don't get my objection. NOTHING of what I have said has EVER been about offense. Offense is entirely irrelevant in my book. Because of your K2's lack of gear, R2 doesn't target him to leave out of stealth when the AI is controlling him. When it comes down to it, I could never run Chopper in this comp for the rest of my life and I will still know how he performs on defense because I have played against him. Until you gear up K2 to g12, you will not know how he performs on Defense because he won't perform right, and even feedback from your shardmates will mean nothing.

To put it another way: Who cares about offense when they both demolish whoever they come up against?

I have no lamebrained objection like his mechanics are beyond you. My objection is that the AI will not use the team right until you do this. I don't care if you know how to run K2 right. The AI will not run the team right because you don't have him geared enough.

My logic has never once said that you don't know how to use K2S0. Nor has it said that I know how to use Chopper as well as you. Quit trying to turn my objections into something they are not and admit you know nothing about how K2 performs on D under JTR when he is G12.

Who would possibly think that a g11 tank could be as effective as a g12 tank? Why are you trying to insert use of an undergeared character on offense as just as relevant as my experience fighting g12 choppers that are on defense when in order for this team to truly be analyze for effectiveness defense is all that matters (since we've already established that both work very well on offense)?

Until you actually realize that me running Chopper will not change my experience with how well he performs on defense one iota, you will continue to be trying to correct me based onpnothing.

This is pointless. I have zero intention of using K2SO so he's not gear 12. If I had any desire at all to use him then of course I would bring him to 12. For you to even suggest otherwise is pretty telling.

Here's an idea... why don't you try some other characters? It's kinda hard to take anything you say seriously when you only have experience using a few characters. K2SO may seem like an amazing tank to you and I admit that he's not bad but until you actually play the characters you are talking about then your talk is just that... all talk.

The only thing telling here is that you keep deflecting to who I have geared instead of admitting that it doesn't constitute a lack of knowledge on how characters other than mine run on defense.

We're talking about defense here. Who I have played against is just as, if not more relevant than who I have played. I don't care if you decide to run K2 or not. That's never been my issue. I am not trying to convince you to run him. The problem is you acting like K2 fanboyism is the only thing driving my response when I have actual real objections to what you are saying based on mechanics, AI, and experience.

I never "suggested" anything to you other than you can't truly say how he performs on defense without gearing him up. If you don't want to run him, cool. Don't try and come off like the master of all knowledge. Get off your high horse and admit you haven't done it and quit badmouthing me while you are at it. Me pointing out that you haven't geared him up and ran him to see how he does is not me badmouthing you or being a k2 fanboy no matter how many times you try and spin that argument.

Why don't you just admit you misinterpreted pretty much everything I have been talking about and badmouthed me based on baseless assumptions instead of continuing to double down even though you are lacking in the necessary experience to truly have a debate on this issue? It's pretty much the only way you are going to come out of this with your dignity intact at this point.

Bwahahah! Please no more! It never ends!

Aye. It will never end. You are speaking down to me when you don't know what you are talking about. I can't believe you desire to continue to humiliate yourself this way.


I've proven you wrong with math. I've corrected your mistakenly obtuse opinions of the things I've been saying. The things you keep coming back to are: K2 must crit. So must Chopper. It applies to both, therefore it is irrelevant. And the fact that I don't have Chopper geared.

Explain to me how playing against him doesn't show me what he's like on defense and I'll admit defeat. If you can't or don't, then you will have proven the irrelevance of your insistence upon this point whether or not you admit it.

(protip: you'll come out of this looking better if you admit rather than not)

If you reply with anything else... well I guess you should just remove the letters 'sbane' from your name there bub.

The only thing you've proven is that your roster is very limited, your mods are meh, and that you have fought Chopper while on Defense. You ignore every single argument against your claims and use jabs and insults to try to discredit those who disagree with you. Your claims against Chopper on defense ring very hollow considering the fact that all teams are easily beat on defense right now. Your K2SO fails just as much as Chopper on defense or your arena rank wouldn't be all over the place. You make claims about characters you have NEVER used and then declare yourself the "winner" over and over despite the fact you have had ZERO support in this thread. Your "math" is all theoretical and you have ZERO means to prove anything you say because you simply don't have the characters. You seem to think a big meat shield is the sole purpose of Chopper in a IPD squad and ignore the turn meter aspect of the squad which Chopper puts into overdrive. You ignore the fact that Chopper's assists occur while your guys are attacking and this is a very speedy squad that gets multiple attacks in before the enemy gets a turn meanwhile K2SO has to wait for the enemy to attack to counter and your own foresights prevent counters which means even less crits for your K2SO. If the enemy is stealthed then its very likely you will see a very limited amount of counters. I fully expect you to ignore all of this and declare yourself "winner" once again like a tool.

I have already addressed every single one of these points on numerous occasions. You, however, have NEVER addressed my rebuttals with anything other than repeating the same thing again. Your points are not true, get over them. Address the rebuttals instead of repeating them or drop them. Not doing so means I win, period.

You keep coming back to my roster as if it somehow says anything about my credibility. Well guess what? It doesn't. However, bringing it up does continue to detract from YOUR credibility. It actually makes you come across as a troll.

It's other little things you do too that show you aren't actually participating in this conversation like putting math in quotation marks. As if using the listed percentages in a formula isn't actual math. You're not gaining any points with anybody by discrediting math. Get over yourself man. You can't even take apart my rebuttals, so you resort to personal insults. I ignored nothing about Chopper attacking on my turn 1/ (1 * .3 * .6 * .25) = 22.2222. He reduces ID's cd on average one out of every 22 or 23 droid attacks. That goes for all other droids too. 1 out of every 22 or 23 droid attacks he reduces their cooldowns. It's roughly every 5 or 6 attacks that he reduces a cooldown at all. It's not a very significant figure. The fact that he attacks during your turn instead of the enemy's doesn't constitute a large advantage. Your droids can not possibly go fast enough for him to reduce ID's cd any faster than K2 does since he will assist less than 1 in 3 droid attacks, which means you'd have to go 3 times to the enemy's 1 in order to actually do so.

K2 will not be stopped from countering by stealth because IPD is going to wipe stealth from the enemy before their R2 goes (unless they are also running 4 droids under JTR).

All of your points against what I am saying are simply not true. I have proven them wrong repeatedly. Disprove my rebuttals instead of just repeating yourself or you are just plain wrong, period.

Haha that's exactly what I thought you would say since you have posted the same thing over and over and over. You know EVERYTHING! We get it! Go ahead and declare yourself winner! Bwahahahahah!

Funny, how I actually addressed your points and you (again) didn't address mine. Looks like you just declared me the winner too.

You should spend more time gearing up some characters and less time talking about things you have never tried.

You should spend less time coming into threads to sling mud instead of actually talking about the discussion at hand.

When this is all over I will still have a great roster, great mods, extensive experience, and respect from people who know me and have seen what I can do. You will still have experience with exactly one tank and you better hope the meta doesn't change soon or you will be in serious trouble with your roster.

And you continue to use personal attacks against me instead of talking about the discussion at hand even though a moderator said not to do so 3 posts ago.

Do you have any plans to address my rebuttals?

No, I honestly hope they end this thread that you turned into a K2SO debate.