Sims Breaking Up

"mw1525;c-16470361" wrote:
@Mikezumi - I totally agree Sims develop and 'learn' as we play them, it is just not my experience that every wish sent up is reflective solely of those facts. To me, every wish which is neither a whim or triggered does have meaning to the Sim who sends it.

@mw1525 Once again, I stand by my opinion that this is user projection. Sims do not have artificial intellegence. They are influenced by their traits, moodlets and other data they have gathered throughout their lives such as skills, relationships and prompts you have given them. They don't even have memories. You could torture a sim and they don't get scarred by it. They accept whatever life we give them and can move on from that torture without ever looking back.

Don't get me wrong. I love my sims and when they do things like glance at their partner when they enter a room I like to think they are in love but I know that is just the "story" I have given them in my own mind. I could give them a new partner on the same day and they won't pine for their lost love. It only appears that way as long as the moodlets associated with a break up last.

@Mikezumi - I have no issue with your opinion and I'm certainly not going to debate it. We view and understand the same thing differently, that's all. Both are equally valid positions of perspective. I will however, address the rest of your statement.

Sims do not have artificial intelligence.
Sims have many different components and various algorithms which they use. The notion Sims don't have artificial intelligence is a false one and, I am almost certain Richard Evans would have issue with your statement.

Richard Evans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Evans_(AI_researcher)
Previously, he was at EA/Maxis, as the AI lead on The Sims 3

In computer science AI research is defined as the study of "intelligent agents": any device that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chance of successfully achieving its goals. Colloquially, the term "artificial intelligence" is applied when a machine mimics "cognitive" functions that humans associate with other human minds, such as "learning" and "problem solving".

Support of that statement: FordGT90Concept:
Sims are "aware" of their surroundings including other Sims. That is what makes them require far more memory than units in an RTS game. Even when a household isn't loaded, The Sims 3 still runs an AI for each sim in the neighborhood.

Sims do have artificial intelligence, it is a learning AI built right into them; this is most likely the main ingredient which gives each player a different experience as everyone plays differently, so everyone's Sims learns differently. Like most video games, a learning AIs purpose is to learn how the player plays and make the experience good for them. If Sims were a war game, you would be met with various challenges which would have been determined from the choices you made. However Sims are a very different machine in that they have an 'extra' consideration; themselves. The first clues to this is written into the game's 2009 opening when it stated 'Climbing Maslow's Hierarchy', so they have an end goal which has nothing to do with any of us.

Here's a breakdown of Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:
-Physiological
-Safety
-Social Belonging
-Esteem
-Self-Actuation
-Self-Transcendence

Sims learning AI/algorithm allows them to take the choices you select and align it with their goals. Your choices are just bits of information stored and used in their decision making process. When the Sim decides what you want isn't the best 'choice' for them they will dismiss your request and attempt to pursue 'the better option'. If you don't correct this behavior, it will be learned this is acceptable. These actions/behaviors makes them seem more 'humanistic'.

They don't even have memories.
Sims do possess memories which survive whether you save the game or quit without saving. Just look through the many posts on this very forum and you will find thread after thread of this occurrence. Such as:

cwaddell (May 2013) (edited by me)
I have noticed that sims seem to remember previous incarnations. I have created a sim and played it with certain traits. I then start a new game and place that household into the new game. Using edit in CAS I then change that sim's traits to fit the new game I want to play. The new incarnation of the sim will display some of the characteristics of their previous traits.

I experimented with this by creating a sim that had the neat and perfectionist traits. Then when I started the new game I replaced those traits. Still the sim always cleaned up after everyone and made all the beds most of the time. They did not have the option to "clean house" as if they still had the neat trait but their free will actions for those two traits where still there.

You could torture a sim and they don't get scarred by it.
Again, there are many examples on the internet and on this very forum which tells a different story. Since a lot of Simmers have moved on to TS4 or stopped coming to the forums, I thought I would find a statement written by an active Simmer to share. This is from a thread I created back in 2013.

Phoebesmom601 (May 2013)
One situation I remember (it doesn't happen often) was that I needed Cornelia Goth to go for a "final" swim. Her needs were very low and I would queue up the action for her to swim. She would look right at me with a red line through the drowning thought bubble. After this happened a couple of times I felt bad and let her go inside and go to bed.

I could give them a new partner on the same day and they won't pine for their lost love.
-Here's where our Sims differ. My Sims LOVE! Not just romantic love, but love for their children and families as well. The full story is on this thread (2016). A Mother's Love (http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/893806/a-mothers-love#latest)

Romantically, I once separated two Sims because I misunderstood what I was seeing. I was new to the game and didn't know about the YA-Teen romance thing. He was a YA and she was a Teen and I thought something inappropriate was taking place, so I moved him from Riverview to Sunset Valley. That Sim fought tooth and nail to be reunited with his (teen) love. It was through the spamming of certain wishes and thought bubble icons, which were suited to his 'old' life did I begin to see what he wanted. Eventually, I got it and moved him back into their game. They've been together ever since and are head-over-heels happy with each other. Over the years I have spoken about them on this forum.

Now, I don't know how you'll interpret this but from where I stand there is no way to teach a Sim 'How to Love' let alone 'How Deeply' to love; that's an area beyond cold hard data. And, yet they do.

@mw1525 For someone who doesn't want to debate you sure put up a lot of arguments against my opinion. I haven't followed all the links you have provided because I really don't want to debate because that would require more caring than I feel about this situation. I merely responded with my opinion because it was you who tagged me first. From what I did read of your long response I still hold that my opinion cannot be discounted because the examples of simmers' experiences you have provided me are filtered through their own perception of what is happening. CWaddell's experience is very easy to explain. Changing a sims traits does not remove all the behaviours of previous traits as I have experienced in my own game but since a Master Controller reset will remedy this situation I can only assume it is just residual data that a CAS trait change doesn't remove.

@mw152, @Mikezumi I would love to believe my sims capable of expressing their own wishes but at the back of my mind there is the knowledge they are nothing more than sophisticated little pieces of programming. The game helps us maintain the illusion we create in our minds that these sims are human and we can further enhance the illusion with mods and cc. On another level maintenance of this illusion can help us cope with real life events such as breakups or marriage and the very real emotions they provoke in us. Who has not cried at the death of a sim ? The critical thing in the end and one of the most beautiful things about the game is it doesn't matter what you do or do not believe your sims capable of expressing. The facility is there to believe, if you want to or ignore if you want to. Either way as long as you are engaged and happy with your game then the developers should be very pleased with their game design.

Edited for auto text which has been told to clear it's desk.

@Mikezumi - To each their own. We can't debate each other's opinion or experiences. Yes, I tagged you concerning how World Adventures 'does' uses the wish system to guide the players with hints. Nothing more. I wasn't aware I was opening up a debate. I respected your view and said "This isn't to take anything away from what you stated as your perspective of the game, just happened to think of a time when 'hinting through the wish system' is used."

(Next Tag) Like you, I only spoke from 'My Perspective' as its the only one I have. I agreed with you concerning player interjections, I still agree with you concerning this! The only thing I added was "I" also keep in mind there are other factors (algorithms) in play when it comes to Sim decision and the wishes or icons they trigger. Nothing more.

(Next Tag) I agreed with you that Sims learn as we play them. Then I stated MY experience and My opinion of My experience. Nothing More.

(Next Tag) I still acknowledge and respect your opinion and said "We view and understand the same thing differently, that's all. Both are equally valid positions of perspective." What followed was not arguments against your opinion, they were 'Facts' of things which came to past. Richard Evans was the AI lead on this game. FordGT90Concepts (a programmer, BTW), did acknowledge the presence and use of Sims AI. CWaddle, Phoebesmom601, and myself did experience these events in our games.

(This Tag) I still agree with the points you made. I still respect your opinion. I sincerely apologize if the wording of my first tag to you implied something other than what I have already stated. My opinion or experiences on the subject of Sims wishes hasn't changed, in my game, Sims use every device they can to get their message across. Again, I am speaking solely of my experience.

@Bettyboop55 - Well, said! I agree, Sims are 'nothing more than sophisticated little pieces of programming', and so are we as human beings. ;)

"ShuffleJ;d-939634" wrote:
As long as I've played Sims (which is a long time) I've always kinda let my Sims determine how their own relationships go. They give little clues in the Wants panel. I usually follow that. What's interesting, is if you pay attention, they tell you who they want to be with. They also tell you when they're done. Over time, I've figured out that the "meet someone new" want means they're ready to move on. It pops up during breakups too. I also recently had two Sims break up and they both got so upset they vomited. Both of their wants during the breakup were "be friends with X" and funny enough, one of them wanted to cast a good luck spell on the other one. I mean, come on. They want to break up, but still be friends. LOL.

If you follow the wants panel, it's really fascinating to watch them determine the course of their own little lives. Even almost 20 years later, The Sims keeps it interesting. Does anyone else do this? I love to let them pick their own mates. Sometimes it works, sometimes it ends in heartbreak. Sometimes Sims is too real.

Amen! I enjoy helping my sims reach their goals and gain the desires of their hearts. I want them to be as free as possible.

"mw1525;c-16470107" wrote:
@Mikezumi - I am definitely analytical! I tend to notice the 'things in the detail', and the 'hidden in plain sight' aspects of this game. While I do agree our personalities, personal point-of-view, and imagination definitely has a large influence on how we interpret various aspects of this game, I also recognize there is a series of inter-woven systems in play making (or guiding) the Sims to come to certain conclusions (on their own) which they attempt to translate to us as players through icons, wants or wishes.

very well said; I agree

When I played TS2, I noticed the children would cry when in the presence of a cheating parent. I wasn't sure why they were doing this. So I googled it and found out they were hurting due to one of their parents being unfaithful. I felt terrible. LOL the sim that cheated had the trait of wanting a lot of lovers. (I forget what it was called).

I haven't seen it happen in TS3, because I don't really allow my sims to cheat. UNLESS I am playing a premade sim and find out the husband cheated. I know it isn't right, but I allowed the sim getting cheating on to cheat as well. I didn't notice the kids behaving any different, it was like they didn't know.

someone above stated their sims kids didn't like the new step mom. How do you know? These sims don't seem as emotional as the ones in TS2.

"Scorpina2009;c-16471857" wrote:
When I played TS2, I noticed the children would cry when in the presence of a cheating parent. I wasn't sure why they were doing this. So I googled it and found out they were hurting due to one of their parents being unfaithful. I felt terrible. LOL the sim that cheated had the trait of wanting a lot of lovers. (I forget what it was called).

I haven't seen it happen in TS3, because I don't really allow my sims to cheat. UNLESS I am playing a premade sim and find out the husband cheated. I know it isn't right, but I allowed the sim getting cheating on to cheat as well. I didn't notice the kids behaving any different, it was like they didn't know.

someone above stated their sims kids didn't like the new step mom. How do you know? These sims don't seem as emotional as the ones in TS2.

They keep going for negative interactions with the new parents or they get angry if the parent cheats. My sim's daughter saw her grandma flirt with him (weird grandma couldn't keep her hands off him) and she got really upset and angry at her dad and I think the grandma too. Then the cat attacked her, quite the night XD

Sometimes they'll just give negative outcomes to any interaction with the step parents.

Speaking of sims 2. My favorite thing ever was when son fought with mortimer goth and poor Alexander saw his dad getting beat up and run up the stairs and cried the got mad and kicked the air.

"CravenLestat;c-16470211" wrote:
I am a uncontrolling simmer,appreciate the high free will system.Who am I to deny my sim the computer, if that is what he want's to do he can.Same with relationships it is fun to go to the park with 7 or 8 females there and he is drawn to a certain one or gives her the most attention then "Ding ding,we have a winner".And find it adorable when the girl you live withwhoever it may be decides to just dip kiss you for no reason then goes off to play darts watch TV whatever.

Am a softie when it comes to sims no longer in love or when one cheats.That awkwardness where you try to talk and they have no interest and get mad/angry declining your bar even further. :'( It gives me RL feels.

One time as a test married Constance Shelley from Riverview cheated intentionally right in front of her and she was a wreck.Never seen nothing like it she was honestly heartbroken and when I even tried regular convos she shut me out and we grew further apart.It was awful even though it is only a game that was hard to watch.Making it worse was the crying and thought bubbles that she had and they were not same day only it is like she dwelled on her pain and misery livng with a monster :bawling:

I have RL feels too. When my two Sims broke and both got so upset they vomited, I felt really bad. I had to take a break from the game for a minute. And funny enough, the relationships they have now don't seem to have the same spark. Only problem was, one of them (a witch) was constantly casting Love Spells on himself (on his own) and making out with random Sims, so he's not the settling down type. LOL.