Forum Discussion

Crayola4321's avatar
2 years ago

Male clothing on female sims causes breast reduction/Binder issues

Old thread here: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion-Feedback/when-using-male-shirts-on-female-Sim-it-looks-horrible/m-p/10272992#M47455

The issue is that when female sims use the male clothing options, their breasts disappear. I'm going to try to explain and clarify why this is an issue even though it might satisfy LGBTQ+ requirements (I'm binary cis gender, so I can't really speak to this, maybe others can contribute to this thread?)

Also, the binder in the base game does not work. I actually could not find it. I'm including screenies of what I assume is supposed to be the binder, but what I assumed, until now, was a sports bra (fyi/tmi, it's my favorite Sims 4 bra; I'm of the age and background where I believe howitzers deserve to be in a tank). Edit: thanks to @puzzlezaddict 's help, I found the binder.

I was going to add screen shots to help explain the issues in the old thread before it was locked, but I didn't manage to get to it because I was busy with Easter.

First off, I want to thank EA for including non-binary lifestyles and clothing options in the game and for all the efforts the team has made to be inclusive. This is greatly appreciated, thank you!

However, women wear men's clothing for a variety of reasons, not always because they're non-binary. For many women, it's historically been a fashion choice, and for some it's been necessary, because off-the-rack women's clothing doesn't fit, or because they need the clothing for non-traditional work.

Cis-gender women have been heading to the men's department in clothing stores for decades for style, quality, comfort, functionality, and lower prices, to the point where seeing a woman in men's clothing is a normal thing, and every woman knows an accessorizing trick or two that makes a man's clothing item look fashionable and feminine. At least two generations of women have grown up in a social and cultural environment where wearing men's clothing is a normal clothing option.

There are a lot of reasons for this cultural phenomenon, and if anyone is interested, we can talk about it, but I'm not going to get into it in this post. There's too much info, and this forum isn't the place for a Wikipedia article (there's also tons of resources explaining and exploring the issues that caused this cultural movement, too).

TLDR: some women want to look feminine in men's clothing, and some women want to look masculine. Some of the latter want to express they are a different gender than the one they were born with.

I would like to see women keep their breast size in men's clothing, unless they are also wearing the Binder, or choose to reduce/remove breasts in CAS, in which case they should see the breast size they chose for their sim. The bulge around the waist typical of men's clothing is fine, imo, it's what happens when a person with traditional feminine waist wears a piece of clothing without the right darts. I'm not sadistic enough to demand belts.

Here are captioned screenies of one of my favorite sims, Esther, modeling male and female clothing options, and the binder:

Edit: Esther in a normal bra. She has breasts. I thought this garment was the binder, originally.

Esther in the binder. I now realize why I couldn't find it. Binders are not tank tops, they're underwear, and also, even though there's some smoothing of the breast profile, the same smoothing is consistent with other feminine clothing options. This garment does not function as it should. Esther's breasts, even though she's an outstanding example feminine pulchritude, should be almost completely flat. I would never have guessed this was supposed to be the binder from where it's located and from what it does. I begin to understand why trans male Sims 4 players are upset with this.

Edit: Esther in a tank top styled for men. Her breasts are warped and tiny.

Edit: Esther in a unisex tank top available for both male and female sims; her breasts are back.

Esther in a Jungle Adventure top styled for the female form. As you can see, she has breasts.

Esther in a Jungle Adventure top styled for men. She's not slouching, or lazy, she's standing normally, and she's a young adult. Her breasts are noticeably reduced in size. This is the same for every masculine clothing item in the game. You can see the difference between the two style options clearly in the CAS inventory.

 

Esther in a unisex base game t-shirt available for both male and female sims. Her breasts are back.

Edit: It's totally possible to code single clothing items for both men and women in the game that let both genders keep their body shapes.

Was it really too difficult to code a reduced breast size for the binder in the game, put in a 'if binder, then___" string for body shape, as opposed to altering breast size for all the male clothing instead?

4 Replies

  • @Crayola4321  I just wanted to mention that the binder is actually under Tanks, not bras, and is available for both masculine and feminine frames.  It doesn't appear to have any effect on breast size for either type of frame though, whether the frame matches the gender or not.  So perhaps the intent is more "this sim wears a binder and has breast size X" rather than "with this outfit, this sim is currently wearing a binder, which reduces their default X breast size by percent Y."

    I'm not trying to make a statement on what the correct or most accurately representative design choice would be, only an observation.

  • Crayola4321's avatar
    Crayola4321
    2 years ago

    @puzzlezaddictThank you! I really could not find it, but now I know where to look! I'll update my post with screenies of this! I appreciate what you are saying, that the binder might not be intended to actually reduce breast size in normal game play, and I also thought this might be the case.

    I still think it should be changed. I think people who wear binders would expect to see what they would irl, a significant reduction in breast size, and be able to see breasts on their sims when they're not using a binder, like they would irl. I don't know much about it either, but from what I understand, gender dysphoria and transitioning, like how much and how fast, is different for different people.

  • GiardiniDiMarzo's avatar
    GiardiniDiMarzo
    Legend
    2 years ago

    @Crayola4321 wrote:

    @puzzlezaddictThank you! I really could not find it, but now I know where to look! I'll update my post with screenies of this! I appreciate what you are saying, that the binder might not be intended to actually reduce breast size in normal game play, and I also thought this might be the case.

    I still think it should be changed. I think people who wear binders would expect to see what they would irl, a significant reduction in breast size, and be able to see breasts on their sims when they're not using a binder, like they would irl. I don't know much about it either, but from what I understand, gender dysphoria and transitioning, like how much and how fast, is different for different people.


    It has limitations, you're right. But there's something a player can do.

    In CAS, you can choose Male (gender identity) with Female frame (gender assigned at birth), like this your sim can wear a binder without seeing the breasts, the inverse of the picture below (I did it for another thread on top surgery scars)

  • Crayola4321's avatar
    Crayola4321
    2 years ago
    @GiardiniDiMarzo I'm not trans male, so I can't speak to how this works for trans men? I'm going to experiment with the body type you suggest, though, and see what men's and women's clothing looks like.