Sims 4's development is ending?

"Phuxion;c-16349912" wrote:

"OEII1001;c-16349902" wrote:

"Phuxion;c-16349899" wrote:

"OEII1001;c-16349814" wrote:

"Phuxion;c-16349805" wrote:

"OEII1001;c-16349774" wrote:
I look forward to reading your list of 100 games where lootboxes didn't work.

Alright, let me just pull up the App Store ;)

Outstanding. I'll wait here. You've provided one so far, and that one seems to be specious at best. I'll still give you credit for it, as I am feeling generous. You're currently 1% of the way to your goal.

Alright, I'm also pulling up a list of MMOs and Steam's worst reviewed games among other things. Not that you'll actually be able to verify a list of 100 games or would even bother doing so.

Well, the thing is that you'd have to also provide data regarding revenue from in-game purchases, which you wouldn't have access to. In fact, the only data available for anyone is from Activision, and that sole set supports my position, not yours. It would be a waste of time to formulate your list.

The reason I held your feet to the fire was your deliberate misrepresentation of the evidence presented. You cited one title and I replied with four, yet you attempted to invert that reality. I take exception to dishonest tactics. And so we've run our course. Have a great day.

Oh weird, it's almost like you don't understand hyperbole and got way off topic of my original point of The Sims 5 being unlikely any time soon.

As I previously stated, your use of hyperbole was to create an inaccurate representation of the arguments in the hope of skewing the argument in your favor. I do not approve of those sorts of forum tactics, and I do resent it when people will not argue in good faith. And so I called out your list.

So much for...

"OEII1001;c-16349902" wrote:
And so we've run our course. Have a great day.

We really ran our course and parted ways for...how many minutes were you able to resist posting?

"I'm done with you." "No, wait hold on I lied."

"OEII1001;c-16349918" wrote:
As I previously stated, your use of hyperbole was to create an inaccurate representation of the arguments in the hope of skewing the argument in your favor.

No, that isn't true and is just another one of your lies. You complain about me doing something but then are completely guilty of doing it yourself. So not only are you a liar, but also a hypocrite.

I do not approve of those sorts of forum tactics, and I do resent it when people will not argue in good faith. And so I called out your list.

As with Star Wars The Old Republic I couldn't also list off Star Trek Online, Defiance, Rift, Archeage, Trove, and hey look at that I managed to list off more examples than you did and all from within a single genre to boot, but you want to have some sort of idiotic ego measuring contest that serves no purpose or is your ego so inflated that you think you're doing some sort of good for the world. This is what you'll look back on years from now and think/say to yourself "I really did some good there and made a difference."

"mirta000;c-16349973" wrote:

"Phuxion;c-16349959" wrote:
As with Star Wars The Old Republic I couldn't also list off Star Trek Online, Defiance, Rift, Archeage, Trove, and hey look at that I managed to list off more examples than you did and all from within a single genre to boot, but you want to have some sort of plum ego measuring contest that serves no purpose or is your ego so inflated that you think you're doing some sort of good for the world. This is what you'll look back on years from now and think/say to yourself "I really did some good there and made a difference."

I played both Rift and Star Trek Online and I did not see them doing lootboxes, so I'm kind of confused now. And while not churning out massive profits, they're still going on and doing just fine with their niche fanbases?

I agree. Certainly neither Rift nor Star Trek Online could be counted as failures, unless one is counting that you're either WoW or you've failed. That would be a ridiculous bar for measurement indeed.

"mirta000;c-16349966" wrote:

48000$ for 8 people for 10 weeks is 3000$ per worker. About twice as much as I'm getting paid in software engineering job. We provide new systems for hundreds of thousands of users and we get to do our own QA testing too. I'm also impressed that they don't have their own workers to do hitboxes, or audio implementation, nor their own animation?! What do their workers do exactly? Draw static images?

This cost breakdown does look blown out of proportion.

It may look that way, but it's not various developers including Tim Schaffer have posted similar types of numbers for their Kickstarter projects.

Again, it goes back to this stuff is way more expensive to do than people think.

Because the base of The sims 4 is so constricting that people think that EA 100% could do better if they were not limited by their own product.

Based on what exactly? How poorly Mass Effect Andromeda did? How Visceral got closed down & and the untitled Star Wars game moved to new team & shifted focus? All the debacle about Battlefront 2.

What is it about modern EA that makes anyone think they could put out a Sims 5 that wasn't extremely disappointing, broken, disastrous, etc? Literally everything points to the Sims 5 either not making financial sense to do right now or it not being good, what people want, expect, or whatever based on EA's modern output.

Those bundlepacks don't cover all DLCs

Almost everything is there except the expansion packs which are on sale now for $20? So that's an additional $80 on top of what's listed in that image? It's expensive, not $500 expensive though.

they don't seem to be from an official source either, so you're looking for a partial discount for specific select DLCs from a grey-reseller.

As if that would stop people though. If you've got something as expensive as The Sims 4 is, and I agree it's pretty ridiculous when you add it all up, but show people who are complaining about how expensive it is a cheaper alternative that is providing them legit codes that work on Origin they're probably not going to consider the moral high ground of the site being shady.

I am rather interested in Crusader Kings II. However I don't think that I'll buy Crusader Kings II, because a) there's good 200$ dollars worth of DLC there and the price is just too steep and b) if the series is successful, I can jump straight into Crusader Kings III when that comes out. I'm not about to risk it by purchasing from a grey reseller.

Remember though, you're one of how many people?

Ever considered that those leaks are on purpose?

Kinda doubt Jungle Adventures popping up on Origin & then immediately being taken down was on purpose. Also doubt that the packs that get leaked from French or German retail sites are done on purpose. Then there's also data mining as well, as in art assets pushed out in updates that include things from upcoming content.

When a leak happens and there's hi-res screenshots or video of said leak, then that's the type of leak that is little more suspect. Yes, there are numerous times where things do get leaked on purpose, however series like Assassin's Creed and The Sims tend to fall on the "Oops" side of history and a lot of that has to do with how frequently content for those products comes about. Back when Assassin's Creed was doing a game a year it was basically impossible for it to not leak not only because it was coming the following year but because almost every Ubisoft studio touches every Assassin's Creed game in some way shape or form to the point that there's no way it's not going to leak. The Sims falls under a similar problem in that they're always working on packs & happen to be part of EA which is a large global company.

"mirta000;c-16349973" wrote:

"Phuxion;c-16349959" wrote:
As with Star Wars The Old Republic I couldn't also list off Star Trek Online, Defiance, Rift, Archeage, Trove, and hey look at that I managed to list off more examples than you did and all from within a single genre to boot, but you want to have some sort of plum ego measuring contest that serves no purpose or is your ego so inflated that you think you're doing some sort of good for the world. This is what you'll look back on years from now and think/say to yourself "I really did some good there and made a difference."

I played both Rift and Star Trek Online and I did not see them doing lootboxes, so I'm kind of confused now. And while not churning out massive profits, they're still going on and doing just fine with their niche fanbases?

The two most recent posts from Star Trek Online's Twitter feed from just hours ago...

"Captains on Xbox One and Playstation 4 can save 15% on Keys until March 9th!"

https://twitter.com/trekonlinegame/status/968523624435994624

The keys that you have to buy FYI to open the loot boxes or what they call lock boxes which is their term for loot boxes.

"The Son'a are bringing their unique technology to the Infinity Lock Box, which returns this week on Xbox One and Playstation 4!"

https://twitter.com/trekonlinegame/status/968531171863924737

As for the range or level of success. When the Battlefront 2 stuff went down the CEO for a mobile games publisher commented on the fact that mobile games, or games with micotransactions, loot boxes, etc, only need 3% of their audience to engage with the microtransactions in order to stay afloat which is pretty crazy. Although that's hardly them quadrupling their profits. Now think about that in the context of all the mobile games that come and go on the app store that don't/can't stay afloat and that's also pretty crazy. As in how many games have been launched on the App Store that are no longer available for download or purchase because not enough people engaged with it, and if only 3% need to buy content from those games then again, that's pretty crazy.

"mirta000;c-16350085" wrote:

Would not consider mobile market same as PC market. How many mobile games go down without as much as a dollar brought and they were pay once model? Or freeware add model? Mobile development is just highly hit and miss. Heck angrybirds creator make over 48 other games until they made angrybirds and their previous games made no profit.

So that means you're saying MMOs have to generate higher numbers than that which means it's much harder for them to be successful, which all just goes back to my point that there are more games with loot boxes that aren't quadrupling their profits.

So what you're saying is that game developers feel entitled to more than the entire software industry get?

I'm just telling you what they said.

People make way too big a deal out of the way some things are. Some things just are the way they are. Not everything has or can have a satisfying answer. If someone explains to you that X is the reason why a company did something the way they did people like you automatically make that comment out to be some kind of defense for X when really just an explanation was given. Sides weren't chosen, but because that statement isn't validating your own opinions people like you turn on it or the person saying it.

Andromeda is actually pretty alright and still churned a profit. Just not the kind of profit that EA wanted.

No, you're missing the point, I'm not talking about profit I'm talking about EA's output in terms of quality & management. Andromeda made money, but nobody liked it, and that can be said with much of EA's output in recent years so why would anyone think a Sims 5 would be any good when EA doesn't tend to put out good games?

You're also missing about 10 of 13 stuffpacks. If the whole thing on sale from grey resellers is 200$, why would I get this and not one of those finished games? Or better, how about 4-5 tripple A games not on sale, or 5-10 on sale?

I'm not saying you or anyone should buy The Sims 4 over other games. Infact I'd advise against some one against buying any of the Sims games because they're just too big of a money sink & that's not something that would change with The Sims 5. It like all other Sims games would get to the same point of having way too many packs.

I would consider the safety of my credit cards honestly.

If only there were other alternatives to using credit cards. Oh wait, there are and people use things like Paypal, Bitcoin, etc, to avoid that with those types of sites.

You really think EA didn't on purpose put a product up for just long enough for there to be a "leak"?

No. Large companies like EA are all about controlling the message. There is no controlling the message on an Origin screw up.

It showed up on Origin with the ability to buy it, then was taken down, and wasn't made available for sale until today, it's release date. It wasn't even available for pre-order on Origin unless you count the screw up.

You realize that they didn't even need to put the store page up AT ALL until after the announcement, right?

They didn't put a store page up for it after the announcement. You literally couldn't buy the game on Origin until today.

And also, who do you think is pushing assets into the game with patches?

The devs so that push things through early to see if it breaks anything and to cut down on the file sizes of the expansions.

You really think devs don't enjoy leaving a trail for miners to follow?

Oh wow, so you're under the impression that data mining is actually a super common thing and that it happens with lots of games? Yeah, no. It mostly happens with MMOs & Fighting Games. It would be moronic and arrogant for developers to just assume people are going to data mine their game when only a small percentage of games that come out are actually mined.

Also given the fact that data mining topics/posts generally get deleted from official forums it's probably safe to say that the devs aren't super into it especially considering the content is often times unfinished, doesn't represent the final product, or their best work. Data mining is probably embarrassing in fact in a lot of cases for devs.

"aricarai;c-16349740" wrote:

"TS1299;c-16346151" wrote:

"@Jordan061102;c-16345631" wrote:

"Fonxi121994;c-16345540" wrote:
I've seen some "game changers" travelling this coming week, pretty sure they're announcing something this week. Maybe the last EP and the TS5 at EA Play. I really want The Sims 4 to end lol

I don't understand. Game changers? Can you explain?

Game Changers is an EA program where youtube content creators can get early access on games with some...benefits. So Yep, example of this was youtubers who get early access codes. I think this program started on with FIFA then transferred to other ea games.

While it sounds good, Its not the best for the franchise. I hear many people saying that Maxis has stopped giving LGR early access to packs because Maxis don't want him to be negative, but this game changers program is the result why lgr didn't get an early copy. Basically a youtuber should email the Sims GM to be able to be part of Game Changers Program. another thing that I don't like is that the publisher(EA) focuses on Youtubers so much that in The Sims they are forgetting that there are more into it. It resulted into pr backlash during the launch of City Living. A lot of fans that are always invited to SimCamp are been removed from the list because they aren't youtubers. So Yep, that's the Game Changer Program, a way to engage players through having sponsored videos on youtubers that plays their content.

@TS1299 - It's not just YouTubers that get early access. There are streamers and I've seen a few that don't do YouTube receive codes too. And I highly doubt that the Game Changers Program is the result as to why LGR didn't get an early access. In anything, when you partner with a company, you have to sign Ts&Cs. I watched a video of his a bit ago in which he said that he didn't want to sign the Ts&Cs; it's probably as simple as that.

Sorry I didn't clarify. LGT not getting review is the result of Game Changers. Before the Game Changers Program hita the Franchise, He was getting free copies of the game, it was the choice of the developers. He didin't had to sign anything. He just bein given free copies. However the emphasis on Game Changers Program by EA on this Franchise begam with Cats and Dogs. With this new rule, A streamer/youtuber will have tp ask the gm if they wanted to recueve early access, that
is where they sign. LGR don't want that signing things then recieving benifits.

As for me I think all the Content Creators who does videos had a chance for these events. I remember when rhey launch The Sims 3 where the Creatirs Camp also includes Modders, Builders, Storytellers, etc that dosen't do videos.

"TS1299;c-16350258" wrote:

"aricarai;c-16349740" wrote:

"TS1299;c-16346151" wrote:

"@Jordan061102;c-16345631" wrote:

"Fonxi121994;c-16345540" wrote:
I've seen some "game changers" travelling this coming week, pretty sure they're announcing something this week. Maybe the last EP and the TS5 at EA Play. I really want The Sims 4 to end lol

I don't understand. Game changers? Can you explain?

Game Changers is an EA program where youtube content creators can get early access on games with some...benefits. So Yep, example of this was youtubers who get early access codes. I think this program started on with FIFA then transferred to other ea games.

While it sounds good, Its not the best for the franchise. I hear many people saying that Maxis has stopped giving LGR early access to packs because Maxis don't want him to be negative, but this game changers program is the result why lgr didn't get an early copy. Basically a youtuber should email the Sims GM to be able to be part of Game Changers Program. another thing that I don't like is that the publisher(EA) focuses on Youtubers so much that in The Sims they are forgetting that there are more into it. It resulted into pr backlash during the launch of City Living. A lot of fans that are always invited to SimCamp are been removed from the list because they aren't youtubers. So Yep, that's the Game Changer Program, a way to engage players through having sponsored videos on youtubers that plays their content.

@TS1299 - It's not just YouTubers that get early access. There are streamers and I've seen a few that don't do YouTube receive codes too. And I highly doubt that the Game Changers Program is the result as to why LGR didn't get an early access. In anything, when you partner with a company, you have to sign Ts&Cs. I watched a video of his a bit ago in which he said that he didn't want to sign the Ts&Cs; it's probably as simple as that.

Sorry I didn't clarify. LGT not getting review is the result of Game Changers. Before the Game Changers Program hita the Franchise, He was getting free copies of the game, it was the choice of the developers. He didin't had to sign anything. He just bein given free copies. However the emphasis on Game Changers Program by EA on this Franchise begam with Cats and Dogs. With this new rule, A streamer/youtuber will have tp ask the gm if they wanted to recueve early access, that
is where they sign. LGR don't want that signing things then recieving benifits.

As for me I think all the Content Creators who does videos had a chance for these events. I remember when rhey launch The Sims 3 where the Creatirs Camp also includes Modders, Builders, Storytellers, etc that dosen't do videos.

I understand what you're saying now, but like I said before, it's not just YouTubers that have received early access, so that hasn't changed since Sims 3.

"@Phuxion;c-16349232" wrote:
1) DEVELOPED BY WHO? - EA shut down Maxis & the Sims Team is only a fraction of the size it once was. They do not have the resources to build a new game on a new engine. They would need to significantly staff up to make something like The Sims 5 & why would EA be willing to dump that type of money into The Sims 5 when the previous game (The Sims 4) was so underwhelming and along with the most recent under performing Sim City was one of the things that lead to Maxis getting shut down.

EA shut down Maxis Emeryville, the studio that made Spore, Darkspore, SimCity 2013, etc and hadn't been making Sims games since early TS2 days. TS4 was made in the Redwood Shores, the same location that has been developing The Sims for over 10 years.

Saying the Sims Team is only "a fraction of the size it once was" is not accurate. You realize there are roughly 200 full-time employees working on the TS4, right? (only counting devs at The Sims Studio and not even including people like QA testers at a different EA location) Check the credits of the latest packs if you don't believe me (there is a "Additional Contributors" section that lists people working at the studio but not on that specific pack). While TS3 did have two studios working on the Sims (both EA Salt Lake City and Redwood Shores), the Redwood Shores studio was also in charge of making games The Sims Medieval, MySims, and the console versions of TS3 so the overall number of people working on TS3 couldn't be that greater.

"Phuxion;c-16349232" wrote:
4) JUMPING SHIP - The number of people either getting fired or leaving the Sims Team since the release of The Sims 4 points to it not being in such great shape behind the scenes. This is a common thing you see from many studios when the studio is no longer what it once was, the staff feels like it's going nowhere, etc.

Most people simply left because the they found better opportunities. I mean, why would they work on video games when they can work for Facebook (where SimGuruRachel went), Google (where SimGuruMax went), or Apple (where SimGuruRyan went)?

Not to mention only a small fraction of the devs are SimGurus. The number of people who left is very small when there are 200+ people working on the game. Moreover, they still constantly hire new people for TS4 (check EA's careers site for the postings).

"mirta000;c-16350231" wrote:
There were MMOs before lootboxes.

Yeah, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about and most MMOs now rely things like lootboxes and microtransactions with their free to play models.

MMOs and mobile games were the things that dug their heels in deep to microtransactions and loot boxes but people never made as big a deal about it as they have now with Battlefront 2, which sucks because it makes it seem like this problem hasn't been something that's existed for years or that the problem didn't matter with those games because those games weren't/aren't important enough.

Lootboces are just an easy way to make money. It encourages the customer to pay far more for a specific item than they would normally.

Not something I was arguing. You keep bringing up things that I wasn't talking about or arguing against.

If it had a bit more time in the animation and anti-bug oven, it would not have gotten that feedback.

You can say that about numerous games.

The story was miles better than Mass Effect 3.

Not really. I don't consider Mass Effect 3 to have a better story but rather both stories are bad.

Andromeda constantly is trying to force you to care about things that you're never given time to care about. Hey this is your dad and this is your sibling. Dad's now dead & sibling is in a coma. Wow, I might have cared that one or either of those things happened later in the game after I had spent some time with them instead of the first 5 minutes. It has a lot of same narrative problems that Fallout 4 had. Hey here's your spouse and your kid. Your spouse dies and your kid is kidnapped in what is the opening of the game and thus you have no time to form a strong enough connection with either to make you care. Both Andromeda and Fallout 4 constantly do things throughout their stories as well.

That's why we have new iterations though.

No, there are various reasons we have new iterations. It's not just because the current game becomes bloated.

50$ up front does not look as bad as 500$ up front.

Except nobody is asking you to pay $500 up front.

And when you already own the game, whati s an extra 30$ here and there? That's how DLC model survives. However the DLC model requires a new base game or you'll have a tough time pullnig new consumers in.

No, they have a tough time pulling people in when the series doesn't evolve in how it handles it's distribution and/or just seems like the same thing all over again.

If they want to pull in new people or a new audience they need to completely re-evaluate their model for franchise and just do Base game, Pets, Seasons, etc, like they do every time. An audience won't/can't grow that way.

That is control though. They sneak peaked and generated a lot of hype by just doing a "woopsie".

No, that's a result of the auto timers being messed with on the back end of their infrastructure that results in things being pushed out when they're not supposed. It happens on Xbox Live and PSN every once and awhile with various games from various companies all around the world and those are things that happen as a result of something Microsoft or Sony did, not because Atlus, or Sega, or Ubisoft, or whoever decided to tease their game.

Then you see how that was not a woopsie. Someone had to purposively put it there to be seen.

No, like I described above. The game already had a timer set for it to go live for it's sale today, but if Origin's software was being updated (which it was at the time) any number of things could have caused the game to show up like that, and note it popped up right as a new Origin update went live which is the same thing that happens sometimes with Xbox One and PS4 patches. A new update goes live and all of a sudden things that aren't/weren't supposed to show in/on the interface, store, etc, show up.

having in mind that we have a whole speculation sub-category here, it seems highly encouraged to me.

It's more like these forums have a section for everything. If the forums were just "General Discussion" "Off Topic" and "Speculation" you might have something but considering the forums seem to be designed to cover all subjects of topic what you're saying doesn't really hold.

Also Data Mining isn't speculation it can lead to speculation, but regardless how is it encouraged if posts with data mined info (screens, etc) get deleted?