Why are Spellcasters not as well liked as Vampires/Werewolves?

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
What the others said. Many of the spells are either basic cheats, or reskinned content from other packs. But there are some other things I'd like to call out.

Potions are a mess. They're not worth the price it costs to make them, or worth the effort it takes to get their ingredients. It's not worth selling them. Only a couple of potions are useful, and Plentiful Needs is way too easy to make and unlock, for something that's so powerful.

Familiars are also useless. They're glorified drones that sometimes give you generic pop-up messages. You can't interact with them besides choosing to summon or disperse them. They save you from death by magical overload, but magical overload is something you have to actively go out of your way to achieve, and it's even harder to die by it.

Brooms basically teleport you. You can't ride around and have fun with them, which gives them less immersion and gameplay potential. Duels are similar, in that there's not a lot of interactivity or variation.

They're also almost completely unnoticeable if you're not playing with them. At least werewolves can wolf out sometimes, and vampires fear sunlight. Witches might ride brooms if you give them one, but other than that, they don't cast spells or do anything magical autonomously. And if you try to have that via the club system, they just cast Inferniate and burn all your stuff. So it becomes a detriment to try and work with them.

They also have no secondary form, which is a major appeal for vampires and werewolves. You can greatly customize them. Not that you could do much with spellcasters though, since they have very little CASsets that fit the spellcaster theme. The only witch hat we got was in a completely different pack.

On top of that, what makes them different from other sims? Vampires and werewolves require you to change up your gameplay style to accommodate them. Mermaids benefit from living in worlds with swimmable waters. Spellcasters are normal sims that can sometimes use cheats if you feel like it. And I get that witches are generally portrayed as enhanced humans, so there's less room for deviation from normal sims. But there's little incentive to play them outside of that way.

I love playing spellcasters, but they're pretty basic. I have to imagine a lot of my stories and gameplay because RoM didn't give us enough to work with. Meanwhile, werewolves and vampires have unique looks, unique items, and unique gameplay.

I like magic being unnoticeable, as my spell caster are special and rare in my game. I even like them living at lots out of the way that not a lot of people frequent….. I do think spells and potions could use improvement…… and it would be nice if they could have a second look like vampires and werewolves….and I wish there was a real witches hat, plain colors, especially white and black….., without the spider.

When I was going through my spiritual experimentation after leaving home, I tried Paganism. The obsession with witches "being real witches" with pointy hats...etc...etc...is a very off putting.

Witches are everyday folks. It's only those who have watched movies like The Craft too many times who buy into the whole stereotype.

I love that my witches look like every Pagan I ever met when I was experimenting. They all garden, they are all very into nature, most of them are vegans. That's a bit of a generalization but it's the kind of Pagans I met so I tried to recreate them in my game.

Probably why I love my spellcasters so much; some of the kindest, most accepting, and generally good people I've ever met were witches. Also, my spellcasters don't do a ton of spellwork. They mostly worship the Goddess in ways that I can pretend within the limitations of the game (gardening, caring for their animals, etc etc). Don't get me wrong, I do I enjoy when they do a battle and win. However, that's pretty much the only time their magic comes out to play.

"CarpeNocheSims;c-18183714" wrote:
When I was going through my spiritual experimentation after leaving home, I tried Paganism. The obsession with witches "being real witches" with pointy hats...etc...etc...is a very off putting.

Not to be disrespectful, the Pagans you're describing sound like interesting people I'd like to meet myself, but they are simply not what most players think of when it comes to witches in a video game like The Sims. They may be the "real" witches in the sense that they're real people practicing a real lifestyle in the real world, but at the same time they're not "real" witches in the sense of using real magic, because... well, magic itself isn't real. And works of fiction featuring magic don't usually do it for the representation of any real people calling themselves witches.

As for the obsession with pointy hats and other stereotypes, the problem is that the pack that brought us spellcasters doesn't even give us the option of making our witches look like that. It went in the opposite direction than TS2, which forced witches to be stereotypical by changing their entire appearance to correspond with their moral alignment every five minutes of practicing magic. Nowadays, if you want a pointy hat, you need Spooky Stuff, but as someone mentioned before, that one comes with a spider attached that makes it look like a costume more than anything else.

About 25% of my played sims are spellcasters, including walking stereotypes with witchy outfits and black cats, but also normal everyday folks like the ones you described, and everything in-between. I love this diversity, the ability to create whatever kind of witch I can think of, but the options for anything out of the ordinary are limited, and I think that's what most people mean when they complain about the lack of stuff like pointy hats.

I'll break this response to parts. This is going to be a long post...

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
What the others said. Many of the spells are either basic cheats, or reskinned content from other packs. But there are some other things I'd like to call out.

Yes, they are. The only thing that needs to be done is learning them. When we take The Sims 1 and 2, your sim had to hunt down/make the ingredients to cast spells and make charms. It was annoying, but it was balance. I am all for more interesting spells!

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
Potions are a mess. They're not worth the price it costs to make them, or worth the effort it takes to get their ingredients. It's not worth selling them. Only a couple of potions are useful, and Plentiful Needs is way too easy to make and unlock, for something that's so powerful.

Yup, not to mention that your sim will get one potion they just learned to make. So learning it from a sage or a tome will give you a potion. Then use copypasto on it. Potions can fail though...
Again, the previous games also had interesting potion. However, I didn't bring them out before here. Ah well, might as well bring out now...

Again, I'm all for more interesting potions!

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
Familiars are also useless. They're glorified drones that sometimes give you generic pop-up messages. You can't interact with them besides choosing to summon or disperse them. They save you from death by magical overload, but magical overload is something you have to actively go out of your way to achieve, and it's even harder to die by it.

To be honest, I don't know how familiars can be useful. Maybe send them to fetch ingredients, maybe some can be socialized with. They also boost spellcaster experience gain and reduce charge gain, so for me, they are sort of cheat objects to remove balance a little...

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
Brooms basically teleport you. You can't ride around and have fun with them, which gives them less immersion and gameplay potential. Duels are similar, in that there's not a lot of interactivity or variation.

Brooms I already brought up.

"EgonVM;c-18180763" wrote:
@Gordy
Ah yes, brooms. While they were bikes in The Sims 3, you could literally go to a Broom Arena and do broom stunts.

And yes, magic duels in Makin' Magic were awesome. Though the only problem with that system would be that if you know the system, there's no way for your sim to lose. So, in my opinion, the magic duels are so because it then has chance of your sim losing.

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
They're also almost completely unnoticeable if you're not playing with them. At least werewolves can wolf out sometimes, and vampires fear sunlight. Witches might ride brooms if you give them one, but other than that, they don't cast spells or do anything magical autonomously. And if you try to have that via the club system, they just cast Inferniate and burn all your stuff. So it becomes a detriment to try and work with them.

Now that is something where players can have different opinions on. Some prefer open-magic (The Sims 2), others prefer closed-magic (The Sims 1). I think like with werewolves, it should be in the options for players to toggle. Limit magic to Realm of Magic, and if you want extra challenge, the fine for casting in front of non-spellcaster sims could also be an extra option.
Though with clubs, I agree. For me, they constantly enable and disable teleportation. Plus they'll cast spells until they die by overcharge.

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
They also have no secondary form, which is a major appeal for vampires and werewolves. You can greatly customize them. Not that you could do much with spellcasters though, since they have very little CASsets that fit the spellcaster theme. The only witch hat we got was in a completely different pack.

Hmm...
I'd say like with vampires, it should be optional. Plus it would be great to have some shape-shifting spell, allowing the spellcaster to temporarily become an animal or another lifestate (werewolf or vampire, including the powers they have).
And I'll quote myself again.

"EgonVM;c-18180763" wrote:
And I agree about CAS assets too. I get that they were going for the spellcaster customizability thus avoiding the classic witch and warlock look, what if I want to make a classic witch/warlock?

Though yes, it was annoying that The Sims 2 tries to force that witch/warlock outfit on sims. Yes, you can change it, but a change in the alignment level will change them back into that witch/warlock outfit (even when they become more good/evil).

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
On top of that, what makes them different from other sims? Vampires and werewolves require you to change up your gameplay style to accommodate them. Mermaids benefit from living in worlds with swimmable waters. Spellcasters are normal sims that can sometimes use cheats if you feel like it. And I get that witches are generally portrayed as enhanced humans, so there's less room for deviation from normal sims. But there's little incentive to play them outside of that way.

Well, yes. I think it would be great to see more of those curses players would rather keep to make spellcasters different from human sims...

"Gordy;c-18180757" wrote:
I love playing spellcasters, but they're pretty basic. I have to imagine a lot of my stories and gameplay because RoM didn't give us enough to work with. Meanwhile, werewolves and vampires have unique looks, unique items, and unique gameplay.

Agreed. Spellcasters do need a refresh. I'll quote myself under spoilers to show some of my ideas.

"EgonVM;c-18180673" wrote:
For me, they have so much potential. So much cross-pack compatibility could be there. They could be really powerful. But...
I'll take a look at the previous games. The Sims Makin' Magic and The Sims 2 Apartment Life had a lot of unique spells. Some spells even gained some functions when you had DLC (You can cause rain or make the sun shine and butterflies appear with Seasons). I'll share some interesting spells from the previous games.

• Turning sims into toads (which could end badly in The Sims 1 if you had a dragon)
  
• Make an object to temporarily come alive (well, The Sims 4 has too much gnome statues to make a gnome NPC)
  
• Banishing someone (either make them disappear or create a hole under them to fall into)
  
• Turning a pet into a sim
  
• Using a spell to temporarily look like a monster
  
• Making a clone that goes to work/school for you!
  
• Imaginary friends
  
• Easier magician tricks
  
• Spells that make socializing easier or harder
  
• Summoning a sim (I'd like to see a relationship drop when summoned at the wrong time)
  
• A spells that removes other spells
  
• Makes a sim act weird to other sims (act like a chicken for example)
  
• Summon bees to attack sims
  
• Resurrecting dead sims as a zombie
  
• Freezing time (it even has its own section in game tips!)
  
• Haunting curse (which kills the caster if it backfires)
  
• Pestilence Curse
  
• Ability to turn an object into something else
  
• Rain that makes non-witches dance uncontrollably

The Sims 2 evil spells really were evil. Erasing memories, breaking up marriages...
But the first two games had one requirement: spells require ingredients. In The Sims 2, you could just make it in cauldrons, but in The Sims 1, you really had to go out of your way to find them.
The Sims 3 just had magical energy that went down. When it was in half, spells began to backfire. Witches can't cast spells without any of that energy.
Yet, none of the games also doesn't force your sim to cast spells. Witches were the most noticeable in The Sims 2 (special idle animations, using brooms). In fact, in The Sims 1, if your sim casts a spell in front of non-magical sims, they'll get fined. I get a feeling that The Sims 4 is trying to re-create that secret magic theme, just without strict consequences.

But my ideas for spellcaster improvements are like so:

• I agree, more magical outfits. Like that classical witch outfit. The one in Spooky Stuff is more of a Halloween costume after all!
  
• More consequences when sims witness your spellcaster casting spells. A relationship decrease when casting harmful spells, a relationship increase when casting beneficial spells. Reputation changes. Special spellcaster traits for those who cast a lot in public. For example (in spoilers):
  
  Spoiler

  • Magician - Cast a lot of performative spells in front of sims. Sims expect your spellcaster to entertain them.
    
  • Evil Spellcaster - Cast a lot of harmful spells and your sim finds less company around them. In addition, some sims may even run away from them or stronger and braver sims may even challenge them to a fight.
    
  • Good Spellcaster - Cast a lot of beneficial spells and your sim has easier time building relationships. Some sims will go out of their way to find them to get help.
    
  • Medium-like Spellcaster - Summon a lot of ghosts and your sim will get more mourners talking to them.
    
  • Wise Spellcaster - Help sims and give a lot of advice and sims will ask a lot of advice from them, thus learning skills faster.
  
  
• More interactions with other occults and to help them or stop them.
  
• More spells and potions, list under the spoilers:
  
  Spoiler

  • Spells to change the weather.
    
  • Potions to turn and cure (vampires, werewolves etc).
    
  • Potion that temporarily gives any sim Lunar Epiphany so they can learn werewolf secrets from books
    
  • Spells to control werewolf fury.
    
  • Spell to disable vampire powers.
    
  • Spells to disable mermaids' abilities (separate for good and bad abilities)
    
  • Spell to make sims terrified
    
  • Spells to affect the eco footprint
    
  • Spells related to Cottage Living animals (send a bunny to fight sims)
    
  • Spells to cause and cure illnesses
    etc.

Anyway, that's what I have to share on this matter.

"GrumpyGlowfish;c-18181602" wrote:
Witches are my favourite supernatural creature, in The Sims and in general, BUT... there's still a lot of wasted potential here. Most of the spells and potions have effects that can already be achieved in the game by other means, without being a spellcaster. I mean, it's cool that I can magically clean up puddles and force annoying mosquito townies to leave, but if I had magic in real life, that would only be the beginning of what I'd do with it! This pack was an opportunity to go wild with magic, but it ended up being too tame.

Yup. Werewolf lore say that werewolves exist because spellcasters wanted to defeat vampires and thus became werewolves. The lore is full of awesome things magic can do, but why can't we do that in gameplay?

"GrumpyGlowfish;c-18181602" wrote:
There's also an annoying lack of compatibility with other packs. You can't use magic to become famous, change the weather, clean up hair left by pets, or fight the mother plant. And why can't we stop time like in TS2? Granted, that would probably make spellcasters extremely overpowered, but so what? This is not a competition with other occults, it's about exploiting the full potential of every individual occult, and while vampires and werewolves have gotten that treatment for the most part, witches haven't.

Agreed. We need more cross-pack spells. I won't quote my ideas again here (this post is already so long).

"CarpeNocheSims;c-18183714" wrote:
When I was going through my spiritual experimentation after leaving home, I tried Paganism. The obsession with witches "being real witches" with pointy hats...etc...etc...is a very off putting.

This is the great part about spellcasters: the customizability. They can be witches, mediums, nature oriented mages etc. That is why wands, brooms, and familiars are equal in power. I don't know how to approach these topics, so I'll apologize in advance.
Yet the option would be nice. Have some outfits inspired from The Sims 2's witches and warlocks. The important thing is that the game isn't forcing the clothing on the spellcasters after all!

@GrumpyGlowfish and @EgonVM I don't know why it bugged me but I'm over it. I've said before that I have a short fuse and seeing the asking for "real" witches just pushed a button that I should not have allowed to be pushed. It made me feel bad for my Wiccan friends.

But yes, it is just a game. Funny thing is that when RoM first came out, I was a tad annoyed that they were called Spellcasters. Now I get it. I understand why EA made that decision.

Another thing I like about spellcasters is that they look like they're using the force when they duel with their hands. I imagine Darth Vader's voice coming out of my Sim as she does the death choke on her opponent and flings them around. I tried to have her do it in Batuu but her magic was useless. Here is where pack integration would have been awesome! She's a Sith Scoundrel because she enjoys getting one over on the dark side. Imagine if she could use her magic there. Awesome!

I wish the game treated werewolves and vampires like they do spellcasters. Put down the pitchforks! LOL. I mean that their quirks aren't forced on us. We should be able to decide just how far into the lore we want them to go. I'm not a fan of this all or nothing approach. I also hate...hate with the force of a thousand burning suns....the way they force us to pick a negative for every positive. Again, taking away my control of my game.

@CarpeNoctemSims

Ah, Batuu... This game pack limits creativity (I like that sims wear different outfits there, but I don't like that it's limited to the new ones only). All occults will not have their powers in Batuu.

Ah, don't feel bad. We all have our short fuse moments where we say things we later regret. I've had those moments too, not happy about them either...

And yes, that's the thing I am all for: customizability. From spellcasters that blend into sim society to spellcasters that are known for their spells. They can only improve, right? I have shared a lot of ideas on this discussion already. Though it's up to Maxis to improve them...

"GrumpyGlowfish;c-18183782" wrote:

"CarpeNocheSims;c-18183714" wrote:
When I was going through my spiritual experimentation after leaving home, I tried Paganism. The obsession with witches "being real witches" with pointy hats...etc...etc...is a very off putting.

Not to be disrespectful, the Pagans you're describing sound like interesting people I'd like to meet myself, but they are simply not what most players think of when it comes to witches in a video game like The Sims. They may be the "real" witches in the sense that they're real people practicing a real lifestyle in the real world, but at the same time they're not "real" witches in the sense of using real magic, because... well, magic itself isn't real. And works of fiction featuring magic don't usually do it for the representation of any real people calling themselves witches.

Speaking with respect, as a self-identified neo-pagan witch I will just say that some of us believe in magic. Some people believe in the power of prayer. Some people believe in the power of Positive Thinking. Is any of it real? Well, that's a deeper philosophical discussion and this isn't the forum for it. :)

Also, some works of fiction do try - with varying degrees of success - to represent real world witches. Thinking about it, I suspect that may be why The Sims 4, with it's dedication to inclusivity, decided to go with Spellcaster instead of Witch for it's magic-users. Less baggage. The Sims Spellcasters don't try to be a representation of Wicca (though we can play them that way if we want to). Neither do they try to be a representation of the Witched Witch of the West (but we could play that too). I still say they are closest to a Harry Potter knock-off, but that can be forgiven.

I've seen some people dislike The Sims 4 as being too bland at times, but I find that plain canvas let's us as players tell our own stories our own ways.

"luciusstorm;c-18183932" wrote:
I will just say that some of us believe in magic. Some people believe in the power of prayer. Some people believe in the power of Positive Thinking. Is any of it real? Well, that's a deeper philosophical discussion and this isn't the forum for it. :)

Also, some works of fiction do try - with varying degrees of success - to represent real world witches.

Of course, some works of fiction try to do that, but still, the majority just want to entertain us with super-cool, super-unrealistic supernatural fun. I write novels and make videos about witches myself, and I come up with a different magic system almost every time because I can think of many ways magic could work if it was real.

Whether or not it is real, well, if prayer and positive thinking are some people's definition of magic, I won't argue about it. But I was thinking more along the lines of telekinesis, teleportation, etc. If you know anyone who can actually do that, please give me their number so I can become their student.

Agreeing with what everyone is saying, the spellcasters had great potential but came out slightly underbaked..

The things that let it down for me are
- the skill tree is kinda wishy washy.. some of the perks even seem to be identical to others, compared to the vampire perk tree which let you create more unique vampires.
- The orb creatures, I forget what they are called, but they are a huge disapointment. No interactions what so ever..
- if we are gonna have a resurrection spell and immortality potion, we should have a kill potion/ spell too.. there’s no real dark magic element.
- Speaking of resurrection, I wish we could bring back sims as zombies ala sims2 if the spell goes wrong.. this could have tied into ghosts from base game better too.
- The magic realm is pretty, but ultimately another shell world, I only really hang out on the rock with the school if I do go. Also what is even the school build, they should let us rebuild it.
- And speaking of the magic realm, what is up with the situational outfit buggggg, puts me off ever visiting the realm.
- And as for the glimmerbrook, could be a nice blank canvas map, but each of the tiny lots comes with these dramatic huge cobblestone driveways that limit what you can build. But this is an issue for me across most of the newer maps so..
- Also, the Bb does try, but doesn’t quite hit the mark the way vampires does, same goes for cas.

The thing I like about the vampire world is you can wipe it and create your own vampire clan, something you can’t do in werewolves, and it’s also a missed opportunity with spellcasters that you can’t somehow defeat the 3 mages and take their place.

"ddd994;c-18184004" wrote:
Agreeing with what everyone is saying, the spellcasters had great potential but came out slightly underbaked..

The things that let it down for me are
- the skill tree is kinda wishy washy.. some of the perks even seem to be identical to others, compared to the vampire perk tree which let you create more unique vampires.
- The orb creatures, I forget what they are called, but they are a huge disapointment. No interactions what so ever..
- if we are gonna have a resurrection spell and immortality potion, we should have a kill potion/ spell too.. there’s no real dark magic element.
- Speaking of resurrection, I wish we could bring back sims as zombies ala sims2 if the spell goes wrong.. this could have tied into ghosts from base game better too.
- The magic realm is pretty, but ultimately another shell world, I only really hang out on the rock with the school if I do go. Also what is even the school build, they should let us rebuild it.
- And speaking of the magic realm, what is up with the situational outfit buggggg, puts me off ever visiting the realm.
- And as for the glimmerbrook, could be a nice blank canvas map, but each of the tiny lots comes with these dramatic huge cobblestone driveways that limit what you can build. But this is an issue for me across most of the newer maps so..
- Also, the Bb does try, but doesn’t quite hit the mark the way vampires does, same goes for cas.

The thing I like about the vampire world is you can wipe it and create your own vampire clan, something you can’t do in werewolves, and it’s also a missed opportunity with spellcasters that you can’t somehow defeat the 3 mages and take their place.

Sorry to be a bearer of bad news, but SimGurus have said multiple times that they can't include something that kills other sims. Yes, inferniate can kill sims if you cast it on the ground under a sim, but yeah, they fear raising the age rating.
So, the best bet there is to use Jungle Adventure's relics...
Though the zombie resurrection spell is a great idea.

Agreed with that situational outfits. Like why? Why? Right now, if you don't want your sim to wear those situational outfits, you'll have to cheat them a trait called trait_Hidden_SpellcasterPremade (requires testing cheats).

Realm of Magic is a beautiful place indeed, but I agree that there are not a lot to do. Though a lot of times I like to be able to edit the neighborhoods outside the lots...