Aim Assist

@Sand_spitter 

The icon in your screenshot is the one I see and talked about in relation to Console players. But a player who uses A Controller on A PC shows up as the second icon in your screenshot = just a PC. Thus my point about the inability to distinguish how many PC lobby players actually are on controllers unless you see their binds in-game e.g. via streams.

Regarding aiming - you and many before you go into extremes after I make a point how a controller and in turn AA influences a player's ability.

Your and alike arguments go right into the territory of putting in a ton of work and being constantly good. E.g. you are talking about 2 years, game based on google came out in 2019 = 2 years in it means that you were there from the start and constantly played the game.

Most of the players I am talking about have been playing the game a fraction of that or they just smurf because more often than not they are <500 level profiles meaning they are at it for <3-4 months, yet they still perform.

Also, I am not trying to diminish someone's skill, my point was that if you put in work like you or @E9ine_AC say you can achieve great results and I agree. But again we are talking about 2000+h in the game if not even closer to 10000h combined in multiple FPS, aim trainers, etc. Again most of the community of Apex I bet are below a fraction of that yet they still can do some of the stuff you can after 2 years.

Thus my point that a controller = AA can make a player's skill leapfrog in an instant similar to my experience of upgrading from my ball mouse to laser one.

And all this discussion is not about who is superior, who can aim better. No. This discussion is about software assist called Aim assist that works, that allows significant assistance in an environment where we have 100 mil player base who can easily hide their stats, be basically unidentifiable if they wish so leaving the rest wonder is this some pro player hiding/transferring from another game or some dude with 10000h in FPS games with perfect mouse control, or is this some kid abusing AA.

To avoid such a negative vibe the suggestion is to just enable cross-play as an option as long as the game can also distinguish between PC players with controllers and add them to the same pool of players who do play on console, so that people with MNK on PC can choose to play or not to play vs players who have the benefit of AA and stop questioning, posting here if they run into a better play and/or opted for playing vs AA players on controllers.

To conclude I would say to stop comparing d#$@, not comparable input methods, and focus on the player's experience via enabling what seems an easy option in-game. End of story.

@E9ine_ACrhetorical question - how would you feel after doing what you did and running into a 10-year-old kid who plays the game for say 2 months and just sprays you with r99 close range thanks to some skill gained during this period of time and AA?

Or unrelated to AA but still on the same vibe of Apex - how would you feel about running into an MNK player who has done no training whatsoever and just uses a no-recoil script (potentially in combination with soft-bot) and fries you in any distance similar to what we see in pro streamer streams?

Wouldn't you feel like you have wasted a lot of time or at least somewhat sad that you did it the hard way - good for you of course - yet when it comes to comparing results in Apex yours are no better than above mentioned two cases?

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A short story of my life. Back in 2000s when I played Quake there was an active community of ~100 players give or take, it was instagib mode = 1 shot 1 kill, in Apex terms = everyone running around with Krabers that do 395 damage no matter where you hit an enemy. Reload time actually was similar.
In this community, I knew 2 clans that were just superior, day in and day out they just destroyed anyone on any day with any team composition in any map in any gameplay be it 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 or 6v6. Undisputed superiority.
On some days I felt worthy, on their level, but really only on some days when I was on fire, lucky with my shots, guesses when pre-firing. On most days I just felt good that ok I can't be on their level yet I can play well vs the rest and say have a 50/50 chance with the most, in some cases constantly be better than the lesser part of the community.

Fast forward to Apex Diamond lobbies - as soon as I see a person charging towards me or firing wingman I know that I am going down being one magged or 3shotted by Eva, Mastif, Wingman, and in most cases I do.
Ok Apex is not 100 player community, I have been around only since 03.2021 yet have cranked almost 2000h in ranked only and most of those in Diamond lobbies, I have watched streams, trainings, constantly record my games and review them, IGL in game which works out well most of the time - indicating that I have at least above average game awareness. Yet I still get down every time I see a player charging towards me or using Wingman.

It just feels like I am the only one in the community who can't hit shots especially with Wingman, the only one using long-range weapons in the game, unable to 1 mag player constantly in-game while doing that with ease in the firing range without any attachments with any gun...

I have no problem losing, it just feels weird that I get that side of the coin 90 times out of 100 and even vs lesser players - platinum and below ranked, players who are sub-level 100, 200, 300...

But that's my story.

I'm not sure it does as I can't test it cause I don't have it on PC anymore. To my knowledge pc with mouse is pc icon, pc with controller is controller icon and console is PS icon, at least for Playstation. But I'll take your word for it. I still didn't see many controller icons when I played pc mouse and pc icons when I played console. 🤷

Regarding aim, again, they might perform, but judging from what I've seen playing with and against controller players thousands of times is that at best most of them are consistently inconsistent. Some games are good, most are bad. There is also carry over from other games just like with a mouse if you can figure out the correct sensitivity settings. Also a 10yo that's played with one since he started playing games is hardly gonna be a noob. I find it hard to believe that pc players still can't hit their shots if they've put in so much effort. Is it any surprise their losing games? If not to a controller, then certainly against other pc players. So there's no difference, they would've lost either way 🤷

@E9ine_AC is probably one of the best players on this forum. If him and I were to 1v1 I bet he would win 10/10 times easily against me and my aa controller. If he could sort out his aim so can everyone else. He did the work. Controller don't mean nothing to him and I've never seen him complain about it before. 

My only point of the whole discussion is that the 1.mixed lobbies aren't as bad as people say. 

2.And aa does not make people so much better like some think.

Does it help? Sure. Is it unfair? I don't think so given the fast nature of the game and the fact that mouse has many more advantages. All aa is attempting is to level the playing field a bit between the two inputs as

mouse > controller. 

Personally, I could try without it and prob succeed but I just don't care enough to re-learn aim from scratch as disabling it throws off all your sensitivities. We never wanted mixed lobbies so why should I do that to keep ~5% of people happy who want it there or the people complaining about my choice of input? We could just say it isn't fair to anyone and disable cross play, end. There's no need for people to even defend themselves here, it's an exceedingly pointless discussion really. 🙂 

Appreciate your pov, at least I can tell you gave it some real thought. 🙂 

@Sand_spitterI would disagree about the point made about movement and speed. As in such discussions, controller players who think that AA is overrated MNK say exactly the same about movement speed and movement teqniques.

At the end of the day, landing shots is what does the damage and kill enemies. Is it harder to hit a player that moves with advanced techniques - sure. Is it harder to hit such a player with MNK vs Controller - depends on the distance.

And finally my argument - if the movement would be so great aimbotters and softbotters would not win lobby after lobby because they would be outmaneuvered every time facing somewhat decent player, especially in Diamond+ lobbies, yet they just stand, point and shoot and get those jumping, sliding, strafing gods down like flies (one way I notice who hacks and who actually does not, might be wrong of course :D), because again AA, all the game mechanics and actual efficiency (lack of it) of strafing in this game is tailored toward hitting not straffing e.g. compare it to games like Quake and you will see what I mean: https://youtu.be/Lr797uB41WU <- just random first video I found, notice the distance you can strafe even when shot with instant hit guns like a lightning gun.

Here is another one prime example of no AA Diamond player with G Pro super light and ~2000h in Apex: https://youtu.be/covzPocq-WU

3 times overshooting at least, hipfire lands exactly 1 bullet out of 2 mags.

I mean sure I was aiming and did it badly yet I am 100% sure this would be 50/50 fight not one-sided carnage if I would execute that on a controller.

@EshshshssThat happens to everyone regardless, in fact, at some point I thought it was being done intentionally by the game itself. I don't know why exactly this happens but in Apex it's super noticeable and more common than in anything I've played before it.

@Sand_spitterI know what happens, it is described on the actual official page: https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/news/servers-netcode-developer-deep-dive

The slower the servers the worse prediction. Plus Apex's bullet "algorithm" that allows hackers to get guided bullets while legit players get no-regs instead.

@Palette24caratsyeah thanks for the correction even though that does not change what I said before - one clip = unfair advantage = AA allowing an average player to one clip enemies much easier than MNK all of these remain valid points.

Also please don't go to an extreme - you find one minor mistake in my comments and then you go all out about me not understanding the game... As you probably have read my history, experience, and current performance level in this game, quite sure you can't call that "not understanding the game" 😉

@Sand_spitter

I would agree on the part that overall one mag takes time to practice.
I would disagree on the part about the experience. My and other people's posts probably as well regarding "old debate MNK vs controller aka AA" originate exactly due to this fact.

As I mentioned before all the negativity comes from the fact that you put in work, do training, have previous FPS experience and then you meet a childish behavior incompetent never caring player who doesn't even focus on the game and bang - one mag + controller comes up again and again and again, like they are winning jackpot every time or I just keep being lucky via being the target on their best time and date over and over again.

Strafing - sure, but it is overrated in Apex, we talked about that before. Here is example from yesterday: https://youtu.be/GSgo5LTTDag

As you see the fight goes something like this:

- I notice him first, start preaiming

- he catches me on counter movement and miss the pattern leading to missing all my shots
yet a note he missed all his shots as well shooting twice as many 5 vs like 10-14

- he tapstrafes to miss my last bullet, I messed up the positioning which forced open space reload

- he reloads while tapstrafing and gains the advantage + distance and now lands almost all bullets

- closes distance even more so, keeps landing bullets while I switch to prowler (usually good hipfiring) and still miss most of my shots

- I get knocked actually by the shot from his teammate yet I was still 1 hit before that and just broke white on Caustic = would not make any difference

Might seem like he moved great, yet in reality I just had 2x on a close range which is not ideal and messed up my positioning. If I would have been closer to the pipe aka cover during reload that fight would still be 50/50 despite him strafing and tapping and me just ADSing with Wingman.

Regarding distance - I personally don't do that unless forced by some factors like 3rd part. E.g. if I am on a distance fight with one team in a building that is strategically important and a 3rd party comes in - it becomes all or nothing and you have to force the issue because choice eventually is either you take a super disadvantageous position and die later but with 100% certainty (being sandwiched or eventually killed by the zone pushing in) or you take a risk and try to take the best position.

Another factor I am still trying to understand and fine-tune if possible is Apex way of displaying player models - I still can't get a smooth picture, people in a distance of 100+m look worse than Mario first game, here is an example: https://youtu.be/VYT2ood_H8Y
I broke the enemy, landed a decent amount of shots, yet those were totally shots in the dark - I could not really see the player's movement due to the crosshair size being bigger than the model, could not predict his movement - all shots were just blind guesses never the less.
Getting to my point - sometimes people with MNK close the distance because they don't see the enemy 🙂 probably true to Controller players which leads to the reality of Apex - most fights take place in close range aka Controller territory.

Also for me as a player who plays on a lower end sensitivity - 0.2 in-game + 3900 dpi with minimal mouse accel - close-range tracking is easier, it just feels more doable and when I move my arm not just fingertips I kind of feel the work being done and in most cases maybe track behind but definitely do not overshoot that often (actually seen in the clip with the Wraith killing me which was posted earlier - tracking was good just behind the target).

Other than that and the fact that I come from basically sniper mode Quake my range is 200m or so + Bow (2x/3x), Sentinel (3x+), G7 (3x+), Hemlock (2x+). Nowadays I make myself use Wingman with 2x (was actually very successful yesterday with it sniping people from the bridge between Climatezer and Epicenter, while they were camping with snipers and TT in the high ground tower in Epicenter...until they placed an Octane jumpad and Ash ported onto me in a second creating close range 3v1 which ended almost instantly.

@Eshshshssthat's happened to me so many times. But it actually proves the importance of movement. Also importance of getting your aim on point. From what I see he out maneuvered you. When I practiced aim I never stood still, ever. I always made sure to be moving so as to try and counter that scenario. Easier said than done, I know.

Use 1x or ironsights on Wingman only, after a while you'll find the gun easier to use like that no joke. Actually, just use ironsights and call it a day.

I 100% understand and agree with not being able to see people properly. I say it's just bad design cause things blend into the background way too easily. The colors aren't done right in Apex. So many times I have trouble seeing who shot at me and trying to rely on the audio to tell me where they're coming from when I get to cover don't work either. But when I say close I mean like punching distance, lol, some people like to get way up in your grill like that 😁

When dialing in my settings I just copied Lululuvely's lol, her's is a bit on the high end but felt right to me as I'm used to high - makes recoil control a freaking breeze. 1.5 with 800dpi if I remember correctly though not entirely sure, no mouse accel ever.

I’m gonna be honest this topic just turned into a 7 paragraph controversy back and forth so I didn’t read 60% of it... and just skimmed it

Contoller players on pc do in fact show the pc symbol instead of a controller symbol if that was never clarified

Aim assist slows down your cursor speed and ‘’curves’’ around your opponent but doesn’t aim for you and in my experience only helps in close range fights while at midrange the recoil is all over the place because it doesn’t really help even with an R-301 but personally I hate R-301 and have better recoil control with a flatline at close-mid ish 

I will say this though, I was outside of a building and I heard someone inside and when I used ADS towards a window I was still receiving that aim assist curve effect like you see on the dummies in the firing range despite not physically seeing the player inside of the building so I’m not sure if that was just a bug or what because it was the first time I ever noticed it but I was also like 5 m outside of the building so I was pretty close

@Palette24caratsplease list all things AA does not just cherry-pick, see @TheApexLegendNub that adds significant and in my opinion very valuable mechanics. If you see my vids posted earlier and comments (again) then you will see how these mechanics could have or would have helped me to compensate for my mistakes and actually land more shots on target potentially even winning those hopeless fights.

Also, don't forget that MNK can do both you said but it is I would say almost impossible for a normal human, definitely not me. What I mean in theory if you google "perfect game sens" you will get guides for MNK which start at "put your mouse on the one side of your mouse pad, pull it in a linear motion to the other side, set sense so that it does 360" meaning that 180 would be done either way on half a mouse pad.

In reality, that sense (unless you have a full-size table for a mousepad) means that your sens will be on a high side which in turn will make a minor movement like 1/8 inch impossible and I mean impossible.

So for MNK there are 3 solutions:

1. play high sense and lose the ability to track

2. play low sense and lose the ability to do quick movements like 180 or actually even just looking left right up down when people get out of your FOV

3. play on low sense with mouse accel and good luck mastering that one unless you have some sort of software that limits mouse accel at a certain speed so you can flick as hard as you want but cursor motion will always be constant (what pros usually do as far as I know unless they go with option nr.2 because tracking is way more important than 180, as they say if you need to do 180 it means you read the map badly and deserve to die)

Finally real-life situation = me: I have a 120 cm wide table with a 30 cm mousepad (might have room for an extra 10 cm at most but that position is just not comfortable for me). Currently on 0.2 sense with 3900 dpi which gives me ~105 degrees from one side mouse pad to the other, and honestly you see from my aiming that in close range my sense might actually need to be even slower. To do 180 in half swipe -> my sense should go up 4-5 times. I guess you can figure out the rest about how godlike a mouse is in the hands of a simple player and compare that to the controller and what I have said before.

What I do is use mouse accel yet that works in a linear fashion meaning if you make an extra X movement actual under/overshooting in the game is multiplied by the accel = I am trying to get some speed for the cost of a lesser room for error when tracking. Thus all these clips.

@Sand_spitter 

Regarding movement - what's the point of it if that dude outmaneuvers himself as well = misses all his shots? The deal-breaker here was my reload and positioning and his teammate coming from behind, not his tapstrafe or strafe (which would have ended if I would have guessed the pattern =50/50 case).

Wingman - yes, I use 2x only rarely even though I like it, but sense just messes it up too much, this time it was just on, had no time or intention to remove it, didn't expect that dude to pop-up so fast so close.

Seeing people - I actually improved my graphics today (what a coincidence), realized that unfortunately, most popular google results on how to fine-tune the Radeon card for Apex were incorrect, and I mean first few pages of google results with various keywords. Sad but I learned the lesson, at least today it feels like so, will see in a long run.

How do people on PC know that they were killed by the controller player on PC - because you see them push like braindead and they land a half/full mag on you or 3 shot you with Wingman or Eva like nobody's business. That's what this discussion is about. In some cases, you reach out to those players e.g. via discord / get paired up in the following lobby and they confirm their input device.

@EshshshssThe point is not missing while moving = making other person miss instead while you are being accurate and evasive. I never noticed crouching while you strafe either. I can't stress firing range enough in this game and I suspect most never go into it. Also, 1v1's in firing range = God mode eventually in game given time, but no one does it and I honestly don't understand why. There's a reason guys like Imperial Hal do it all the time. Like @E9ine_AC said, practice is key. You might get away with not doing it in something like cod but never in Apex and applies to both inputs equally. You won't perform well, or better overall just by picking one or the other up and hoping for the best, neither input is gonna hold our hand here.

Another thing - bad movement also doesn't equal bad aim - can't really judge overall ability based on movement or lack thereof alone. And I see this argument many times. "He moves like a noob, but one clipped me - he must be cheating or it's aa". That is simply untrue. I'm not one for bouncing off walls and sliding all over the place either, doesn't mean I'm gonna miss. 

Ok, so at least some of the time people are guessing that they were killed by controller based on movement and close range accuracy alone? Interesting. This is new to me and makes a lot of sense as to why we see these discussions (or assumptions) about aa so often. However, this can also be incorrect, at least in some cases. And I don't think it's a far reach to think mouse players can indeed also play like that given the high skill ceiling and different play styles this game has and allows. Have a look at guys like Dizzy and Aceu - those guys are maniacs compared to most players and pretty much pushes and one clips everything they see. It's an extreme example but at least something to consider also. Then you have a guy like Dellor who moves more noobish but has good accuracy and is also ex Pred level player..

Also, cheating is definitely a thing too and may or may not always be obvious. When I started recording my matches on my previous server I was shocked to see afterwards just how many players were using strike packs with turbo crouch enabled. I didn't even realize it in real time in most cases. Point is, if people don't wanna get caught it's pretty easy not to, making aa an easy go to assumption.

@TheApexLegendNubThat "curve" you mention I always refer to as a "slight pull".

Go into firing range and look straight ahead near a dummy, now move left and right past the dummy with left stick without touching the right stick and you get that pull or curve effect up close. The thing with that is, try doing it while giving input to the right stick to try and keep cross hair centered on the dummy and you'll notice that it completely overrides that curve effect making it useless.

This is how people play in game - with input to the right stick in order to track and control recoil so in essence it doesn't really serve any meaningful purpose imo.

I honestly don't know why this effect is in the game cause imo it creates a perfect platform for misunderstanding. I always see people use this as "proof". "Look what happens when I run past my friend, his reticle / cross hair moved proving that aa does all the work and tracks for you". And I'm like, yeah, try pulling the trigger and see how many shots he lands when that happens with no input to the stick...