LONG POST! Caustic is a very bad legend. As a Caustic main I am happy the new map came out because it shows everyone how bad he really is. It is very open, and players are starting to see that he can't do anything without buildings to be inside of or around, and even then his traps are easy to push past. Here are the changes he needs to be decent imo.--->GAS SHOULD NOT AFFECT TEAM MEMBERS<---- Caustic has a doctrite, I'm sure he is smart enough to pack extra gas masks for team members-There needs to be some kind of punishment for setting off a gas trap. People set one off, take two ticks of damage at most and walk back out again-Gas Damage needs to be buffed again-Traps need quicker animations for throwing and activating by at least 30%-Traps and ultimate need at least 10% more gas range-Traps either should not go off if doors aren't fully opened, or seep through walls -Cooldown on traps should be buffed slightly, (maybe 20 sec instead of 25), carry 4 instead of three, and place 8 instead of 6 at a time. (At least) This is because he needs to be able to secure open areas and multiple ways to get to him in these new buildings-Traps need a buff to throw distance by at least 15%.-Remove trap shootout. You can already activate by shooting it, it will go away in 12 secs. Having the ability to shoot them down takes the threat away completely. (If it if behind a door, you'll need to think! Caustic is defensive so this is the point.)Even if all of these things were implemented he would not be op, he has no mobility still, he has no way to disengage unless he uses his ultimate, and he is very large, so even with a 15% less damage buff, you are hitting way more shots than you would have on that wraith or lifeline anyway. (Don't give him more fortified tho that would be pretty strong)

Of course he's awful in open space but most battle are fought in a named area where you can trap your enemies in a room or simply annoy them by throwing canisters around them and setting them off yourself. This way, your team takes the lead while you draw focus. I had a game just last night where my teammates left to fight a team while I fought another team in a building. Through my knowledge of how great Caustic is, I manage to set traps up and cornered all 3 enemies into a small room where I blocked the exits with gas and began throwing in arc stars before finishing the job with my Ult. It wasn't easy as Caustic in general isn't an easy Legend to use but it was sure satisfying seeing them run around like ants and die.

@CausticCoffey @heme725 Yeah as a Caustic main myself he does need some buffs. His tacticals deploy slower than a snail crawls. And is ultimate is easily dodge-able.Caustic is a defensive type. This can be taken a couple of ways. In Caustic's case though, this means pushing enemies off of your allies and giving them some breathing room. So just like a good defense can be made from a good offense, the vice versa is true too. It is really difficult to use caustic aggressively because: most fights take place outside of buildings, your own allies are avoiding you, his abilities activate slowly, and all of these combined usually means that if you're downed you are getting revived last. I've personally seen that happen time and time again. "Oh he's a Caustic and just saved our * with his ultimate inside this building? Let's revive him last." or "Oh its Caustic and we chased down an enemy to fight outside where I know Caustic is weak, so now he's down? Lets revive him last after we've looted."Here are the buffs I suggest: 1) First and foremost, allies should no longer be affected by Caustic gas, period. You gotta think in a real world and as a scientist he'd be smart enough to bring masks for his "friends". 2) The second biggest thing that any Caustic player can tell you, is that his tactical needs a major deployment time fix. Decrease the time by 40% if I had to guess. I don't know that actual dead set time so I can't be accurately reasonable. 3) Again, related to his tactical mostly, but somewhat his ultimate as well. The damage of the Nox. There's a few ways to handle this. You could: A) increase the rate at which the damage pings. B) Increase the starting damage at 7. C) Increase the damage peaking point to 15. D) Some sort of modified combination of the previous. 4) Then there's his ultimate. The Nox Gas Grenade. Again, most combat takes place outside. Outside Caustic's ultimate is easily avoidable, from backing up to going around to climbing on a loot container or small boulder. Personally I don't have a problem with its spreading range, or it's duration. It's the height I have a problem with. His ultimate should climb higher. Take 30-50% of what it's volume currently is and add that to it. It should climb two people high. 5) Next we circle back around to his tactical. Lets say you have a small building loaded with Caustic's traps and blocking doors so enemies can't get in. All the enemies do is simply crack the door and close it. Trap activated and the enemy waits it out. Comes in or around. Kills you. Enemy tosses grenade in activates all traps, waits it out. Comes in or around. And kills you. The sensitivity of the Traps needs fixed. So that enemies can't just crack a door, close it, is unaffected waits it out, kills you. If that's too complicated to adjust then, the cooldown time on getting new traps needs decreased. Try from 25 seconds to 18. On top of needing to be able to store 4 traps, and deploy 8.And just for extra credit: Why does Caustics traps disappear immediately upon death? Canisters, the gas, all of it. Just gone. Gas canisters that would have saved your allies when you died, gone. Gas from a nox bomb that would've killed enemies after your death, because you damaged them so much? GONE. But Wattson's traps sure stay on the field. Octane's "traps" sure stay on the field.

-I understand your viewpoint on gas effecting teamates, however, I don't agree. There should be distinguishing team colors or effects like on wattsons fences for example. Not being able to play with your team in the gas is a huge holdback on Caustic.-The spread out effect on the gas is Interesting, however in order to have someone actually run into the gas in the first place, it needs to be hidden which usually means you are putting it against a wall of some sort to hide it. The rage would not reach as intended. If the range increases to Max say in 3-6 seconds however it would make Caustic very strong. You could place one down, shoot it, and smoke out a whole room or area. So maybe this would work.-I still think Caustic needs more traps and a cooldown buff. Even with 30% increased range over time he needs to be able to cover large open area, or he is restricted to staying around and inside buildings, and his kit should not be situational like it is now. Other legends have something about their kit that is useful Almost all the time.-I read your post and I like it. I think our Caustic visions are a little different and with a different goal in mind and I am fine with any buffs at this point lol.

For S3 I switched to Caustic from Pathfinder because I wanted as big a change as I could get to keep the game fresh. About 1k kills and 55 S3 wins so far and I'm loving him. I don't think he needs a buff other than the ideal but totally not happening "different player model about the size of mirage" and get rid of fortified :PI think he's unpopular among better players not because he himself isn't good to use but because if you're about padding your stats, you want the characters that enable to you to push as aggressively as possible all the time : this means mobility or faster healing to get into thicker fights/new fights faster. I really don't think his gas needs to be buffed or changed, he's in a fairly decent spot imho. It might be an idea to have it so that when someone shoots the base of your trap to deactivate them, a small cloud appears for 1 or 2 seconds, so that the often lamented issue of a player with a good shot nullifying Caustic isn't as pronounced - but honestly, if your traps are all getting shot out then you're putting them in the wrong place.[edit] - Re the map, I think it's significantly better for Caustic than Kings Canyon ever was. There are far more buildings and enclosed spaces. In HUGE sections of the map you can deny access vertically by trapping ziplines, elevator shafts, stairwells etc. In most of the buildings you can render a floor effectively a 'safe-ish zone' to med up etc because the gas totally covers the entire floor. So much comes down to CQB in a lot of this new map in buildings that Caustic has never been more relevent in the hands of a solid player.

@CausticCoffey "Gas should not affect team members." A lot of players are in favor of this and some against. I'm not sure if this change would make things better or worse so nothing to say about this."Gas damage needs to be buffed." Why? Well I'm fine with buffing the damage if you're ok with getting rid of the slow and blurred vision. Too many players focus on damage and ignore how significantly players are affected by the little things."Traps need quicker animations for throwing and activating..." I'm in favor of this for most legends. A character that's highly dependent on their ability to compete needs to be able to use it quickly. Wraith is fine with just a gun because of her small size but bigger characters need their kit to do well.I'm too ignorant of Caustic to have an opinion on most of your other suggestions outside of removing the ability to shoot out his traps. Its the only real counter to him and without it I have to give up if I see a single trap.

Caustic is terrible, and the new map shows it

28 Replies

iBlockHead
6 years ago
Of course he's awful in open space but most battle are fought in a named area where you can trap your enemies in a room or simply annoy them by throwing canisters around them and setting them off yourself. This way, your team takes the lead while you draw focus.
I had a game just last night where my teammates left to fight a team while I fought another team in a building. Through my knowledge of how great Caustic is, I manage to set traps up and cornered all 3 enemies into a small room where I blocked the exits with gas and began throwing in arc stars before finishing the job with my Ult.
It wasn't easy as Caustic in general isn't an easy Legend to use but it was sure satisfying seeing them run around like ants and die.
DarthVaapar
6 years ago
@Anlbrd wrote:
For S3 I switched to Caustic from Pathfinder because I wanted as big a change as I could get to keep the game fresh. About 1k kills and 55 S3 wins so far and I'm loving him. I don't think he needs a buff other than the ideal but totally not happening "different player model about the size of mirage" and get rid of fortified :P
I think he's unpopular among better players not because he himself isn't good to use but because if you're about padding your stats, you want the characters that enable to you to push as aggressively as possible all the time : this means mobility or faster healing to get into thicker fights/new fights faster.
I really don't think his gas needs to be buffed or changed, he's in a fairly decent spot imho. It might be an idea to have it so that when someone shoots the base of your trap to deactivate them, a small cloud appears for 1 or 2 seconds, so that the often lamented issue of a player with a good shot nullifying Caustic isn't as pronounced - but honestly, if your traps are all getting shot out then you're putting them in the wrong place.
[edit] - Re the map, I think it's significantly better for Caustic than Kings Canyon ever was. There are far more buildings and enclosed spaces. In HUGE sections of the map you can deny access vertically by trapping ziplines, elevator shafts, stairwells etc. In most of the buildings you can render a floor effectively a 'safe-ish zone' to med up etc because the gas totally covers the entire floor. So much comes down to CQB in a lot of this new map in buildings that Caustic has never been more relevent in the hands of a solid player.
Bravo. You’re absolutely right. This game is great because it provides rewards to intelligent gameplay for very good players through the use of Legends with much varied play styles. Many of them are counter to the highly aggressive, twitch reflex standard. Caustic is one such Legend and is anything but useless or disadvantaged. Neither in KC, nor WE.
CausticCoffey
6 years ago
-To reply to all three of you, whom seem to agree, I've played him from season 1 onward. A lot of people tell me I'm not playing him right, but don't play him half of the time themselves.
-These buff would increase his defensive capabilities so that he can defend against super agressive players
-Caustic should be able to leave his traps anywhere so that he could defend open areas. Right now me and my team have to flee into a building to have Caustic preform most of the time. Even then, the enemy team just stays back. (Counter to traps that can't be shot out because that are in a building)
-They throw grenades and activate traps,then flee untill I can't place anymore, and then they push us (if activated you can run out before Caustic has any chance to get to you)
-Data shows he needs work. Wins and kills are lowest for him.
-Ive already made all the points I can make in previous posts on everything all three of you talked about. He needs these buffs and there is evidence supporting that he needs buffs.
CausticCoffey
6 years ago
Wow, I've been playing Caustic since season 1 and I've never had 3 people see me as a Caustic, and see gas traps then willingly confinethemselves in a small room where my traps are. (Had at most 2 in bunker that entered the tiny room)
Point being it was their own fault they died. (And not a iffy mistake like pushing a team or healing at the wrong time. Willingly putting yourself in the position to die must mean the team you fought was inexperienced.)
Chevleon
6 years ago
another nice way to buff his traps is to allow placement on walls, and ceiling. when in a high area the gas fills the area above and below. making it great for trapping zipline elevators.
Anlbrd
6 years ago
@CausticCoffey Wins and kills are lowest for him because most good players want to get higher kill games. He's harder to do this with not because he's bad but because there are specific bonuses that help go for higher stats - mobility and healing. The core idea of Caustic is one that most aggressive players are NEVER going to choose over other more mobile/faster healing/evasive characters, ever. This accounts for the lack of wins - there aren't that many good players who are likely to pick Caustic.

If you want to use his bottles out in open areas - you throw them and have your team mates shoot them, or you shoot them. When they're activated they can't be removed.

Most Caustic players seem to want him to be able to make areas totally inaccessable to all but Caustic, his team and enemy Caustics for 3 or 4 minutes at a time : this would be garbage and CLEARLY isn't what the developers are pushing for.

He's about area denial, breaking teams up and creating space for heals. People who always get off at the first bus stop of thinking will see Caustic as being good for nothing but camping, but they're also the kind of Caustic mains that show him as having barely any wins against his name.

They die slower than a Pathfinder crouching in a building, but they still just die. This is how it should be.
Symbioticfork5
6 years ago
Caustic was better in King's Canyon by far. Trees, bushes, rocks, smaller choke points, smaller buildings, more cover, and intelligence easily acquired from enemies passing through where you've been. Season 3 and the new map brings buildings with 4 floors and several entrances per floor and choke points so large you need to spread all 3 gas traps across the width of them for any possible area denial and that's ALMOST okay, but there's always no cover to hide or obscure those traps in these areas. There were so many slot canyons and narrow passages on the previous map. Areas where you could setup OUTSIDE and have them covered by a decent Caustic. Anyway..

I have 58 wins this season and 3,400 kills total with Caustic.. got Diamond with just him last season.
He has the LOWEST DAMAGE and LOWEST KILLS despite being obsessed with death. (ironic) Also the 4th lowest pick rate at 3.38%. (2 per match)

Means to me he needs some attention. I would suggest..

- Faster trap activation / deploy speeds
- Traps not being activated through CLOSED / INTACT doors.
- Reduced item or ability usage speed by 25% if recently damaged by gas

The two most picked champions if caught in gas are also the two with the easiest time ignoring it.. imagine that. (Wraith / Pathfinder)

I'm not opposed to spreading gas or a wider radius to it given the size of the new map and the overall low pick rate of Caustic, it's obvious he needs something done. He's not competitive, he's not dangerous, if anything he's a free kill outdoors and the first guy you'll want to shoot at.
CausticCoffey
6 years ago
It's also ironic that Pathfinder and Wraith mains are the ones who disagree on Caustic buffs the most, even though they have the easiest time dealing with him. It has to be because it disrupts their playstyle and they can't just rush in guns blazing like with every other legend (except wattson)
-Great post, even with these changes,(he needs more), I would be happy. Hope respawn gets on top on Mirage and Bloodhound as well to give them serious buffs.

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Caustic is terrible, and the new map shows it

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